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On August 19 2015 07:11 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks. If he's really committing a significant portion of his army to a run by/counterattack while you are at his front doorstep than just initiate a base trade. You are Terran...your buildings fly.
good zergs will do counterattacks with muta ling and leave banes at home on creep with reinforcements in eggs though. and i'm sure you know it's not always easy to push into banes on creep even if you feel you have an army advantage. i'm not saying basetrades are never good, but i think it's more complex than "just attack and win". it's important to have good simcity and spotting marines if possible
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On August 19 2015 07:19 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 07:11 Grizvok wrote:On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks. If he's really committing a significant portion of his army to a run by/counterattack while you are at his front doorstep than just initiate a base trade. You are Terran...your buildings fly. good zergs will do counterattacks with muta ling and leave banes at home on creep with reinforcements in eggs though. and i'm sure you know it's not always easy to push into banes on creep even if you feel you have an army advantage. i'm not saying basetrades are never good, but i think it's more complex than "just attack and win". it's important to have good simcity and spotting marines if possible
Yes those are good things, but completely turning around because of a counterattack...against any race really isn't usually the best solution unless you are considerably ahead and gain even extra value from killing off an army. If his counterattack is at your base and you are just realizing it with all of your army at his front door and you are even'ish turning around is probably going to make you lose. That's just enough to give good Zergs time to do damage and swing a close game pretty strongly in their favor especially if they do something like force a lift at your third.
I absolutely think you need to make something happen aggressively in that scenario where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack.
I guess my bigger point is that it matters hugely as to how much the Zerg is committing to the counter attack in question and it matters a lot as to when you are scouting this play. Say you scout his counterattack early as he breaks off some lings and Mutas then you may very well be fine and take minimal damage (without feeling the need to commit to a big frontal assault) by rerallying reinforcements to your third and setting up defensively by using the turret and bunker you should have there to deflect the pressure.
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On August 19 2015 11:42 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 07:19 brickrd wrote:On August 19 2015 07:11 Grizvok wrote:On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks. If he's really committing a significant portion of his army to a run by/counterattack while you are at his front doorstep than just initiate a base trade. You are Terran...your buildings fly. good zergs will do counterattacks with muta ling and leave banes at home on creep with reinforcements in eggs though. and i'm sure you know it's not always easy to push into banes on creep even if you feel you have an army advantage. i'm not saying basetrades are never good, but i think it's more complex than "just attack and win". it's important to have good simcity and spotting marines if possible Yes those are good things, but completely turning around because of a counterattack...against any race really isn't usually the best solution unless you are considerably ahead and gain even extra value from killing off an army. If his counterattack is at your base and you are just realizing it with all of your army at his front door and you are even'ish turning around is probably going to make you lose. That's just enough to give good Zergs time to do damage and swing a close game pretty strongly in their favor especially if they do something like force a lift at your third. I absolutely think you need to make something happen aggressively in that scenario where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack. I guess my bigger point is that it matters hugely as to how much the Zerg is committing to the counter attack in question and it matters a lot as to when you are scouting this play. Say you scout his counterattack early as he breaks off some lings and Mutas then you may very well be fine and take minimal damage (without feeling the need to commit to a big frontal assault) by rerallying reinforcements to your third and setting up defensively by using the turret and bunker you should have there to deflect the pressure.
I think, if you are caught in the situation where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack, one of the worst things to do is attack desperately because this is what zerg wants and if they've played it right you lose your main army and then you have no army at home and you can't dealt with the counter so you straight up lose. Of course, turning back accepts losses and doesnt' do any damage in return, but you don't lose the game right away. Obviously it's better of you prevent the counter from ever breaking you, but if you are caught with your pants down I think the best thing to do is to send out 2 double-medivac drops to the fourth and main and then send the other half of your army home and use that + reinforcements to clean up the counterattack. But against good zergs running on to creep trying to win the game right away is almost certain death.
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Keep in mind he is talking about pushing the fourth base. We can safely assume from the situation Absentia describes we're playing a macro game where the Zerg takes the fourth at a standard time. Bane speed will barely be done and he won't have enough stuff to do what you guys are talking about. If you decide to keep stuff at home to defend, your 4th base push will be useless.
If you don't do anything against the fourth base and he can just drone it up you might as well leave the game right there.
Edit: but a replay would be nice to have so we know exactly what's going on.
Went over some replays of me vs high master Zerg teammates, none of them came even close to having the kind of stuff to break a 3rd base bunker with still enough defense at home, they barely had enough to defend the fourth base, or not even that.
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Hello fellow terrans,
I (Diamond Terran) played three games against a clanmate of mine (Master Zerg). Before you tell me "Please macro more", yes, there is always room for improvement I know, but my spending skill in those games is (at least in the 2nd and 3rd game) at a level where I feel that I need to do more than just having good macro.
What basically happens is that I scout with 2 Reapers and try to harass a little bit (not too much so that my macro won't fall off) and add 8 Helions before adding Raxes and Ebays. The build was copied from how Innovation played last year.
My clanmate builds a lot of queens and I can't really seem to find a way to force him to build anything else but drones. This will end up in him flooding my 3rd around 11-12 minutes with lings and banes and I basically just don't have enough stuff at the time to defend my third.
The first improvement I made was to fly the 3rd over as fast as possible in the 3rd game ( I usually let it stay in my base until I have enough units to defend it properly but that did not work out) to be able to add more production faster.
But apart from that I have no clue how I am supposed to behave with my helions. I'll link you the replays below (please check all 3 of them, not just the first).
Can anyone tell me how I am supposed to behave in these games?
http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1896852
http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1896872
http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1896949
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@Liox
Currently watching the first replay, observations:
- General macro could improve like you said, but related to that your build order execution isn't as crisp as it needs to be, the reason I say this is because it's hard to beat a Zerg if your attack timings are weak. The Zerg will snowball out of control more and more.
- You lose a few hellions to just queens, that shouldn't happen
- Your 1-1 is very late, it should finish before 11:30,
- You load up a double drop at 11:40, that's fine but if that is all that you do the zerg has only 1 thing to defend, The drop comes in at 12:30, that's also a tad late and because of the delay doesn't pose a threat to the Zerg
- Personally I love taking the other third base on Coda, makes it a lot easier to push the Zerg
- No bunker at third base in combination with the location makes it pretty much impossible to defend your third base from runbys, if you really want to skip the bunker build your third at the other location and rally your production there, but I'd still recommend building a bunker
- by 12:30 you should have 8 rax 2 factories 1 starport pumping out units, you start your last 3 barracks at 13:30, the delay of that in combination with the massive amount of breathing room the Zerg already had makes any parade push followup very easy to stop
I probably missed a few things, went through it a bit quick but if you need some help with knowing what to improve on I'd say this:
Zerg is a race that snowballs out of control, for example if you don't limit their creep spread it will make it easier to defend their fourth base which will make the next stage of the game easier for them.
With the way terran build orders in TvZ work, if you, for example, delay your hellions too much due to a macro mistake you will delay the followup barracks which will weaken your push, which will make it easier for the zerg to start the whole snowball process I'm trying to describe.
Because of this, it's crucial that you nail your build order and that your production is started on time, so it's very important that you work on that.
Creep spread on Coda should not go down the ramp, if it reaches the watchtower the zerg will have a very easy time holding you back.
Other than that, I pretty much do the same build as you, but I like to send 1 drop to the fourth or main base while the rest of the army (6 hellbats, I think you shouldn't make more than 6 hellions at the start) clears up creep and poses a direct threat to the zerg natural/third base. At the same time you should get your second factory and 6th 7th and 8th rax up for the follow-up push.
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Ok,
after looking a little bit more into the details I got some macro points (thank you very much @Bojas, I looked at the 2nd and 3rd Replay since the 1st is just kind of garbage in terms of macro)
What I found actually was that my starport finishes at 10:00, but my first medvacs arent out until around 11:10, so theres something, my +1+1 is through at 11:30-11:40 so that seemd kind of alright, but still a point to improve the execution.
Additionally I don't have a 2nd Factory at 12:30 yet (I normally wait for the +2+2 to start before starting to build the 2nd Factory due to the lack of gas, I might be on fault with this one and with flying out the 3rd faster I just might have the additional 100 Gas I need for the upgrades after the 2nd Factory).
There is one thing that still is not clear for me: Especially in the 2nd and 3rd game I really tried to mitigate the creep spread but there were 4 queens out there so it was kind of throwing away my helions to those and rarely being able to mitigate the creep ( I just still don't have the multitasking to mitigate creep while building all the stuff in my base).
What can I do with 6/8 Helions against 4 queens? =/
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On August 19 2015 20:06 Liox wrote:
Ok,
after looking a little bit more into the details I got some macro points (thank you very much @Bojas, I looked at the 2nd and 3rd Replay since the 1st is just kind of garbage in terms of macro)
What I found actually was that my starport finishes at 10:00, but my first medvacs arent out until around 11:10, so theres something, my +1+1 is through at 11:30-11:40 so that seemd kind of alright, but still a point to improve the execution.
Additionally I don't have a 2nd Factory at 12:30 yet (I normally wait for the +2+2 to start before starting to build the 2nd Factory due to the lack of gas, I might be on fault with this one and with flying out the 3rd faster I just might have the additional 100 Gas I need for the upgrades after the 2nd Factory).
There is one thing that still is not clear for me: Especially in the 2nd and 3rd game I really tried to mitigate the creep spread but there were 4 queens out there so it was kind of throwing away my helions to those and rarely being able to mitigate the creep ( I just still don't have the multitasking to mitigate creep while building all the stuff in my base).
What can I do with 6/8 Helions against 4 queens? =/
Don't have time to watch all replay so I picked the first one hoping that would be the best example. To deny creep, park your hellions close to the creep, and every time you've got some spare apm go back and move them around and try to snipe morphing tumors.
If he has 4 queens close to each other spreading it's very hard to impossible to deny creep, but just do whatever you can get done with taking as little damage as possible, don't ever lose a hellion, that's not worth it. After a while, the creep will go in different directions, sometimes they won't have their queens together and you can snipe a queen and/or deny creep based on judgement call.
edit: oh and pay attention to the minimap, if he surrounds your hellions you're in trouble 
Also, just want to say having perfect build order execution in TvZ is very, very hard. It's still pretty much the only thing I'm working on at almost high master level.
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Well, I guess I'll just try my best then and focus on 5:00 to 15:00 in TvZ and babysit my lovely vroomvroom helions. Thanks a lot =)
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@Liox
You can micro a bit to force heal or a kill. But if you see only queens and no unit, as soon as there is an opening, go for runby and punish. I watch game on Coda you fight for a queen when there only 4 slowgling protecting ramp :p
At the beginning, queens stay near ramp to protech bu they have to move to expand creep toward third that's when opportunies can happen  Best timing was 7.16/17 when queens go to def expand you have a good opening. 6 queens is hard to push without hellbat but at least you know where mineral is and, in this situation, i think adding 2 ebay more quickly could be a good choice.
I think when hellions are here just to scout you should focus more on macro especially for baracks you're a bit slow to build them.
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Ok, that might be valid too, TY @Cazimirbzh
Kind of finalizes the direction I was thinking of at first (gonna be hard as hell to execute though ^.^)
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Runbys are risky as fuck, if you lose your hellions you open yourself up to a ling/bane allin. I wouldn't do it unless you really feel the need to take a risk that might pay off.
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@Bojas
Even if have hellions you can be ling/baneling allin and when you runby you'll most certainly lose hellions but you're overthinking the problem. You go for it when you see that the way is open. In the replay that was the case queen off the ramp and only 4 slowling. What's really important is where the queens are and if lings have speed(really hard to kill harvstr if they have it). You can play safe and repop several hellions and go for hellbat push but it will delay barracks/ebay.
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On August 19 2015 13:30 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 11:42 Grizvok wrote:On August 19 2015 07:19 brickrd wrote:On August 19 2015 07:11 Grizvok wrote:On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks. If he's really committing a significant portion of his army to a run by/counterattack while you are at his front doorstep than just initiate a base trade. You are Terran...your buildings fly. good zergs will do counterattacks with muta ling and leave banes at home on creep with reinforcements in eggs though. and i'm sure you know it's not always easy to push into banes on creep even if you feel you have an army advantage. i'm not saying basetrades are never good, but i think it's more complex than "just attack and win". it's important to have good simcity and spotting marines if possible Yes those are good things, but completely turning around because of a counterattack...against any race really isn't usually the best solution unless you are considerably ahead and gain even extra value from killing off an army. If his counterattack is at your base and you are just realizing it with all of your army at his front door and you are even'ish turning around is probably going to make you lose. That's just enough to give good Zergs time to do damage and swing a close game pretty strongly in their favor especially if they do something like force a lift at your third. I absolutely think you need to make something happen aggressively in that scenario where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack. I guess my bigger point is that it matters hugely as to how much the Zerg is committing to the counter attack in question and it matters a lot as to when you are scouting this play. Say you scout his counterattack early as he breaks off some lings and Mutas then you may very well be fine and take minimal damage (without feeling the need to commit to a big frontal assault) by rerallying reinforcements to your third and setting up defensively by using the turret and bunker you should have there to deflect the pressure. I think, if you are caught in the situation where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack, one of the worst things to do is attack desperately because this is what zerg wants and if they've played it right you lose your main army and then you have no army at home and you can't dealt with the counter so you straight up lose. Of course, turning back accepts losses and doesnt' do any damage in return, but you don't lose the game right away. Obviously it's better of you prevent the counter from ever breaking you, but if you are caught with your pants down I think the best thing to do is to send out 2 double-medivac drops to the fourth and main and then send the other half of your army home and use that + reinforcements to clean up the counterattack. But against good zergs running on to creep trying to win the game right away is almost certain death.
I don't know. I play a pretty heavy Marauder comp (like Cure) and am not really scared of Banelings without significant Muta and ling support.
I never said anything about winning the game outright...I said you need to do damage whether that is trading efficiently (which you should do or else your micro is complete shit) because large parts of his army are across the map. Yeah Zerg is great at remaxing pretty quickly but 4M is sick at sieging up target areas so if you can't get into an advantageous position at his fourth or what have you to deny mining then you are doing something wrong. As well if you've gone the whole game not denying creep and at least killing off creep to his newly mining fourth base then you've already made huge errors in the mid-game which yes will make what I'm laying out more difficult.
I can't say I like your suggestion of sending multiple double drops across the map which will undoubtedly be over creep...super easy pickings for Mutas that are just popping.
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On August 20 2015 07:21 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 13:30 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 19 2015 11:42 Grizvok wrote:On August 19 2015 07:19 brickrd wrote:On August 19 2015 07:11 Grizvok wrote:On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks. If he's really committing a significant portion of his army to a run by/counterattack while you are at his front doorstep than just initiate a base trade. You are Terran...your buildings fly. good zergs will do counterattacks with muta ling and leave banes at home on creep with reinforcements in eggs though. and i'm sure you know it's not always easy to push into banes on creep even if you feel you have an army advantage. i'm not saying basetrades are never good, but i think it's more complex than "just attack and win". it's important to have good simcity and spotting marines if possible Yes those are good things, but completely turning around because of a counterattack...against any race really isn't usually the best solution unless you are considerably ahead and gain even extra value from killing off an army. If his counterattack is at your base and you are just realizing it with all of your army at his front door and you are even'ish turning around is probably going to make you lose. That's just enough to give good Zergs time to do damage and swing a close game pretty strongly in their favor especially if they do something like force a lift at your third. I absolutely think you need to make something happen aggressively in that scenario where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack. I guess my bigger point is that it matters hugely as to how much the Zerg is committing to the counter attack in question and it matters a lot as to when you are scouting this play. Say you scout his counterattack early as he breaks off some lings and Mutas then you may very well be fine and take minimal damage (without feeling the need to commit to a big frontal assault) by rerallying reinforcements to your third and setting up defensively by using the turret and bunker you should have there to deflect the pressure. I think, if you are caught in the situation where you are caught completely unaware by a big counterattack, one of the worst things to do is attack desperately because this is what zerg wants and if they've played it right you lose your main army and then you have no army at home and you can't dealt with the counter so you straight up lose. Of course, turning back accepts losses and doesnt' do any damage in return, but you don't lose the game right away. Obviously it's better of you prevent the counter from ever breaking you, but if you are caught with your pants down I think the best thing to do is to send out 2 double-medivac drops to the fourth and main and then send the other half of your army home and use that + reinforcements to clean up the counterattack. But against good zergs running on to creep trying to win the game right away is almost certain death. I don't know. I play a pretty heavy Marauder comp (like Cure) and am not really scared of Banelings without significant Muta and ling support. I never said anything about winning the game outright...I said you need to do damage whether that is trading efficiently (which you should do or else your micro is complete shit) because large parts of his army are across the map. Yeah Zerg is great at remaxing pretty quickly but 4M is sick at sieging up target areas so if you can't get into an advantageous position at his fourth or what have you to deny mining then you are doing something wrong. As well if you've gone the whole game not denying creep and at least killing off creep to his newly mining fourth base then you've already made huge errors in the mid-game which yes will make what I'm laying out more difficult. I can't say I like your suggestion of sending multiple double drops across the map which will undoubtedly be over creep...super easy pickings for Mutas that are just popping.
The kind of counterattack I was thinking of wasn't the kind that you can clean up with reinforcements, which means that if you just attack you are basically giving up any opportunity to defend your bases, so you either have to do equivalent damage yourself, which I think is unlikely, because zerg has planned this and probably played it out many times; they want you to attack into them or turn back. You can't move slowly and scan the creep because you are losing your orbitals, and you can't push in such a way that you cut off any possible flanks. You have to gun for the bases as quickly as possible, and in an even game you won't have cleared all the creep up to the fourth anyway against a good zerg. So sure, you can take out the fourth, but then as you move to the third and then to the natural you have no idea what's around you and where his army is and you open yourself up to flanks from all angles. And what's going to happen to you when the zerg army returns? Just because they counterattacked doesn't mean their army is weaker.
The reason why I said that drops might be a good idea is because they can expose a zerg who was planning to swallow up your army on creep by forcing him to trade in a different way, they allow you to get direct economic damage in without having to break through the army, and they abuse the fact that zerg has split up their army in a way that's worse at dealing with drops then head-on engagements on creep. Zerg won't be building lots of mutas in a large counterattack anyway; they'll be building lings and banelings.They also allow you to have a chance at doing even a bit of damage and get back in the game if you are caught off guard by a huge midgame counterattack, which is really a game ending move for the zerg that you should prevent at all costs. Against a huge midgame zerg counterattack with, say, almost all of their lings and 25 mutas, you can't defend with reinforcements so you must retreat or accept the basetrade (I'll explain why you can't take the basetrade), so if you are retreating you should at least try to do some damage with drops.
You can't really basetrade in these kind of situations because it simply doesn't work well. You have to walk on creep for an extended period of time and constantly be on alert for banelings coming from any direction, where even a small amount could take out a sizable chunk of marines. You have to constantly stim your army until your medivacs run out of energy. Mutas harass your army indefinitely, picking off stuff without taking permanent losses. Your marines slowly bleed out and your army runs out of health until it's been picked to pieces and the whole time zerg can just take a ton of bases around the map and mine little bits at a time and morph more banelings and mutas. And if they get burrow they can burrow banelings which exacerbates the whole situation. So you have to go back to avert the sure loss. The only exception that I can think of is if you have 4+ thors and 20+ marauders, but if you have a good number of marines you have no hope of winning the basetrade.
There's a reason why every single time a pro terran plays a counterattack-happy zerg (Life, Leenock, Losira) they almost always turn back at least part of their army to deal with the big counters and they never leave their bases without at least 20 supply of units left behind. The only way to deal with it is to prevent it from ever happening.
Games that I think one should watch, vaguely referenced:
Taeja vs Life, any time anywhere, but look particularly at the game in Blizzcon on KSS or the game at IEM Katowice in early 2014 on Heavy Rain
Iaguz vs Nestea in some WCS Challenger, dont' remember when
Leenock vs Major in some showmatch
Dream's series against Life
Jjakji vs Leenock GSL finals from 2011 (old but still very strategically relevant in my opinion)
There are probably others that I can't remember that are particularly relevant.
These are very counterattack-heavy series and games. Look at the way the Terrans split their army, and when it's effective and when it's not. Look at the times Terran chose not to turn back in response to a counterattack and mark their position in the game before and after. Note the times that terran turns back, and what they did in combination with that. Notice how hard it is for the terran to do any damage in a short amount of time, even with an army advantage, even when they are sieging up a base, even when there is only 1 tumor between the army and the fourth. And most of all, look at what Taeja does in the face of crisis; he's the most consistent in these situations, but even he has no good options against Life on King Sejong, but in his winning series against life note how he values preventing the counterattack from happening above all else. He misses timings so he can avoid being countered. He misses significant windows of opportunity because he doesn't want to get countered.
And just a last word of response: you can play a very even midgame and not be within striking distance of a fourth. Half the maps in the current map pool allow you to rally push (which barely works now anyway) for ages and you could never end up denying a fourth. Plus midgame army movement and map control/creep and vision clearing oriented play is far more stable in the long-term anyway. The majority of bio games these days that go longer than 14 minutes are conflicts over fifths, not over fourths.
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On August 20 2015 03:33 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@Bojas
Even if have hellions you can be ling/baneling allin and when you runby you'll most certainly lose hellions but you're overthinking the problem. What's really important is where the queens are and if lings have speed(really hard to kill harvstr if they have it).
Yeah of course he can still do it, but it is infinitely easier to hold on to your third base with the hellions, in fact, I don't think it can be done without.
You go for it when you see that the way is open. In the replay that was the case queen off the ramp and only 4 slowling.
The problem is that you don't know what's behind it, maybe it's a risk you can take if speed isn't done, but if speed is done a lot of zergs will have lings waiting, that will instantly trap your hellions if you're not careful. Some Zergs that delay speed get a few safety roaches that will pop just about when you would go for a runby.
You can play safe and repop several hellions and go for hellbat push but it will delay barracks/ebay.
Yeah, I mean if that's what you need to do to be safe you can really question if it's worth it in the first place.As your average ladder player that is trying to learn the game it seems like a bad idea to me to rely on things like this.
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Yes yes Terrans, keep saying what part of Zerg you are affraind of!
*Malicious eyes*
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@Bojas
Yes it's always safer to go macro, always stay on the edge of the creep, retreat as soon as you lings. But as macro zerg is stronger, i dont like it.
And ofc the moment when you go on top of ramp you'll stop breathing for a second but risk = reward. ( aka micro  )
However for an average player the playstyle you're describing is a very passive one. If you're trying to learn basic mechanics, in absolute, propably better to focus on macro. But if you want to play TvZ with some rythm, you have to try to take advantage when you can have one.
I dont understand what seems to be the trouble with runby hellion into hellbat push, it's a safe follow up, ez to execute (that why i suggested this one). You keep hellions production, so no switch building to do when you micro, you'll still have map control but as it delays barrack production, the hellbat push timing gives you mean to attack quickly the 4th before you have your production completely ready.
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On August 20 2015 23:32 Cazimirbzh wrote:
I dont understand what seems to be the trouble with runby hellion into hellbat, it's a safe follow up, ez to execute (that why i suggested this one). You keep hellions production, so no switch building to do when you micro, you'll still have map control but as it delays barrack production, the hellbat push timing gives you mean to attack quickly the 4th before you have your production completely ready.
Could you clarify what a "runby hellion into hellbat is"?
You can play safe and repop several hellions and go for hellbat push but it will delay barracks/ebay.
I thought this meant that you make your hellions, do a runby and then after your initial 6 hellions have died you continue making hellions
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@Bojas
sorry my bad i forgot "push"^^ runby hellion into hellbat push.
You're supposed to have a continuous production of hellions in order to replace the one you lost from the runby. And if you fear so much allin, you can add mines. As zerg pop harvesters from larva it's good deal.
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EPT
