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On August 08 2015 18:15 MockHamill wrote:
How do you play TvT on Terraform?
If he goes double proxy reaper and you go 1-1-1 you die. Fighting with workers and a few marines against mass reapers does not work if you do not have good micro.
So instead I open 2-1-1 which defeats proxy reapers but gets you really behind against aggressive 1-1-1 which could be anything from tank/viking/marine push, to 1 base doomdrop, to marine/hellion elevator attacks.
Basically I can defeat proxy reapers and I can defeat aggressive 1-1-1 attacks but not both. If there any opening that is safe against both?
Note that you can block the reaper ledge with a single depot at the top, so they have to come in through the front. This probably means you can defend reasonably with a normal gas first as long as you micro impeccably.
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On August 09 2015 03:31 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 18:15 MockHamill wrote:
How do you play TvT on Terraform?
If he goes double proxy reaper and you go 1-1-1 you die. Fighting with workers and a few marines against mass reapers does not work if you do not have good micro.
So instead I open 2-1-1 which defeats proxy reapers but gets you really behind against aggressive 1-1-1 which could be anything from tank/viking/marine push, to 1 base doomdrop, to marine/hellion elevator attacks.
Basically I can defeat proxy reapers and I can defeat aggressive 1-1-1 attacks but not both. If there any opening that is safe against both? Note that you can block the reaper ledge with a single depot at the top, so they have to come in through the front. This probably means you can defend reasonably with a normal gas first as long as you micro impeccably.
That still leaves 2 different spots that they can jump in. If you guess right you have the advantage, if you guess wrong the game is almost lost (without pro level micro).
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On August 09 2015 04:12 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:31 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 08 2015 18:15 MockHamill wrote:
How do you play TvT on Terraform?
If he goes double proxy reaper and you go 1-1-1 you die. Fighting with workers and a few marines against mass reapers does not work if you do not have good micro.
So instead I open 2-1-1 which defeats proxy reapers but gets you really behind against aggressive 1-1-1 which could be anything from tank/viking/marine push, to 1 base doomdrop, to marine/hellion elevator attacks.
Basically I can defeat proxy reapers and I can defeat aggressive 1-1-1 attacks but not both. If there any opening that is safe against both? Note that you can block the reaper ledge with a single depot at the top, so they have to come in through the front. This probably means you can defend reasonably with a normal gas first as long as you micro impeccably. That still leaves 2 different spots that they can jump in. If you guess right you have the advantage, if you guess wrong the game is almost lost (without pro level micro).
I don't really have much to say about this other then either don't go gas first or micro better. Sorry, but I defend reaper builds most of time by micro from a gas first but I don't know any reliable way to beat it if you can't micro well enough.
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On August 09 2015 04:12 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:31 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 08 2015 18:15 MockHamill wrote:
How do you play TvT on Terraform?
If he goes double proxy reaper and you go 1-1-1 you die. Fighting with workers and a few marines against mass reapers does not work if you do not have good micro.
So instead I open 2-1-1 which defeats proxy reapers but gets you really behind against aggressive 1-1-1 which could be anything from tank/viking/marine push, to 1 base doomdrop, to marine/hellion elevator attacks.
Basically I can defeat proxy reapers and I can defeat aggressive 1-1-1 attacks but not both. If there any opening that is safe against both? Note that you can block the reaper ledge with a single depot at the top, so they have to come in through the front. This probably means you can defend reasonably with a normal gas first as long as you micro impeccably. That still leaves 2 different spots that they can jump in. If you guess right you have the advantage, if you guess wrong the game is almost lost (without pro level micro).
literally all you have to do is pull scvs to buffer, ur hellion should come out in time vs 3-4 reapers which should win when micro'd properly...... i don't really see whats the problem
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On August 09 2015 10:44 Obamarauder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 04:12 MockHamill wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 08 2015 18:15 MockHamill wrote:
How do you play TvT on Terraform?
If he goes double proxy reaper and you go 1-1-1 you die. Fighting with workers and a few marines against mass reapers does not work if you do not have good micro.
So instead I open 2-1-1 which defeats proxy reapers but gets you really behind against aggressive 1-1-1 which could be anything from tank/viking/marine push, to 1 base doomdrop, to marine/hellion elevator attacks.
Basically I can defeat proxy reapers and I can defeat aggressive 1-1-1 attacks but not both. If there any opening that is safe against both? Note that you can block the reaper ledge with a single depot at the top, so they have to come in through the front. This probably means you can defend reasonably with a normal gas first as long as you micro impeccably. That still leaves 2 different spots that they can jump in. If you guess right you have the advantage, if you guess wrong the game is almost lost (without pro level micro). literally all you have to do is pull scvs to buffer, ur hellion should come out in time vs 3-4 reapers which should win when micro'd properly...... i don't really see whats the problem
I just tested it out. 4 Reapers beat a hellion even with 8(!) workers repairing the hellion.
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On August 09 2015 21:01 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 10:44 Obamarauder wrote:On August 09 2015 04:12 MockHamill wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 08 2015 18:15 MockHamill wrote:
How do you play TvT on Terraform?
If he goes double proxy reaper and you go 1-1-1 you die. Fighting with workers and a few marines against mass reapers does not work if you do not have good micro.
So instead I open 2-1-1 which defeats proxy reapers but gets you really behind against aggressive 1-1-1 which could be anything from tank/viking/marine push, to 1 base doomdrop, to marine/hellion elevator attacks.
Basically I can defeat proxy reapers and I can defeat aggressive 1-1-1 attacks but not both. If there any opening that is safe against both? Note that you can block the reaper ledge with a single depot at the top, so they have to come in through the front. This probably means you can defend reasonably with a normal gas first as long as you micro impeccably. That still leaves 2 different spots that they can jump in. If you guess right you have the advantage, if you guess wrong the game is almost lost (without pro level micro). literally all you have to do is pull scvs to buffer, ur hellion should come out in time vs 3-4 reapers which should win when micro'd properly...... i don't really see whats the problem I just tested it out. 4 Reapers beat a hellion even with 8(!) workers repairing the hellion.
........ where did i say ur only going to have 1 hellion? u obviously keep constant marine production. I thought that was a given???? u hit once with hellion, back off until attack delay is gone and hit again, repeat etc..... . its very simple micro that any terran should be able to do
you can also just post a replay
In most scenarios you should have 2 marines positioned to deny the first reaper. This is what you should almost always do with your first marines in TvT. Against a proxy version while going gas first, you probably only have 1 marine, in which case you should start pulling some SCVs immediately. If neither marine dies, you're in a great position. 3-4 marines + SCVs beats reapers easily, the hellion just seals the deal
You also mentioned going 2/1/1 to counter this. I'm not exactly sure of the build order you're referring to but you can just do a barracks first variant of 1/1/1 with 12 or 13 supply gas. This way you're going to have 1 extra marine which is huge in preventing the reapers from snowballing. Of course, this means your hellions will be delayed but keeping your marine count healthy is far more important against reaper cheese
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Hi Guys. This might have been answered somewhere else, my question is how to you scout the "use" of gas? like is there a general rule of thumb? You placed your gas at 12 supply so if he has less gas then you he placed his earlier? Or i see you have 2 gas but no tech building nor a high sentry count? I'm revering to protoss as from what i saw one can infer allot about the plan of a protoss by his gas usage.
Thank you!
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On August 10 2015 16:44 TypeOfT wrote:
Hi Guys. This might have been answered somewhere else, my question is how to you scout the "use" of gas? like is there a general rule of thumb? You placed your gas at 12 supply so if he has less gas then you he placed his earlier? Or i see you have 2 gas but no tech building nor a high sentry count? I'm revering to protoss as from what i saw one can infer allot about the plan of a protoss by his gas usage.
Thank you!
1 gas into nexus is standard play and you scout tech as normal. 2 gas before expansion and no second pylon in base usually means proxied tech, most likely stargate but also possibly 1 base blink or dt. 2 gas before expansion and both pylons in base is probably a normal-ish nexus with a fast mothership core and/or some quick tech right after it, but can still be 1 base tech. nexus timing reveals all, it should be going down by 4:00-4:15 or so if you're not facing 1 base tech. if you see protoss make sentries on 1 base he's probably doing some kind of weird 1 base immortal push or he's not very good
for 2 base+ it's more of a general game sense thing, but protoss wants 3+4 gas very very quickly if he's teching up to a normal game with colossus, no gas on natural for a long time could mean a big gateway allin. for 3 base if he doesn't take 5+6 gas it usually indicates he wants to play heavy colossus/gateway without a very fast transition to templar
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Those openers in the op, are they still relevant?
I haven't played sc2 in an extremely long time.
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@Thryd
Yes but better to go for the updated ones and if you compile a list of BO that you want to execute and post it here, pple will tell you if the meta is different.
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How are you supposed to beat turtlemech with bio in TvT? I can't find any reliable way to win against it.
And by turlemech I'm referring to a mech player who expands very slowly and patiently, gets early extra starports, and goes into ravens while attacking either not at all or after securing a fourth base and getting up 10+ ravens. I can't figure out how to deal with this because if I go 2 fact tank (which I usually do against mech) then I can't do a fast airswitch, and I can't pressure him because the ravens kill my tanks and he expands so slowly I can't find good areas of weakness anyway. And I can't delay my airswitch because if he attacks me with ravens before I have enough then I simply lose. I can't trade with his air from a superior base count because you can't really trade with raven/viking vs raven/viking, and I can't make a fast airswitch to catch him offguard because his air is too fast and I can't push forward without tanks. I'm totally lost on how to deal with this, and I haven't seen any good solutions in pro play.
How are the rest of you terrans handling this if you face it?
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On August 14 2015 04:14 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
How are you supposed to beat turtlemech with bio in TvT? I can't find any reliable way to win against it.
And by turlemech I'm referring to a mech player who expands very slowly and patiently, gets early extra starports, and goes into ravens while attacking either not at all or after securing a fourth base and getting up 10+ ravens. I can't figure out how to deal with this because if I go 2 fact tank (which I usually do against mech) then I can't do a fast airswitch, and I can't pressure him because the ravens kill my tanks and he expands so slowly I can't find good areas of weakness anyway. And I can't delay my airswitch because if he attacks me with ravens before I have enough then I simply lose. I can't trade with his air from a superior base count because you can't really trade with raven/viking vs raven/viking, and I can't make a fast airswitch to catch him offguard because his air is too fast and I can't push forward without tanks. I'm totally lost on how to deal with this, and I haven't seen any good solutions in pro play.
How are the rest of you terrans handling this if you face it?
i outexpand and then trade bio for tanks. mech is better but having 2 bases on them is way too much (if ur opponents are explanding very slowly)
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On August 14 2015 05:28 Wrathsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 04:14 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
How are you supposed to beat turtlemech with bio in TvT? I can't find any reliable way to win against it.
And by turlemech I'm referring to a mech player who expands very slowly and patiently, gets early extra starports, and goes into ravens while attacking either not at all or after securing a fourth base and getting up 10+ ravens. I can't figure out how to deal with this because if I go 2 fact tank (which I usually do against mech) then I can't do a fast airswitch, and I can't pressure him because the ravens kill my tanks and he expands so slowly I can't find good areas of weakness anyway. And I can't delay my airswitch because if he attacks me with ravens before I have enough then I simply lose. I can't trade with his air from a superior base count because you can't really trade with raven/viking vs raven/viking, and I can't make a fast airswitch to catch him offguard because his air is too fast and I can't push forward without tanks. I'm totally lost on how to deal with this, and I haven't seen any good solutions in pro play.
How are the rest of you terrans handling this if you face it? i outexpand and then trade bio for tanks. mech is better but having 2 bases on them is way too much (if ur opponents are explanding very slowly)
I don't know if this works. The good players expand quickly enough you can't get 2 bases up without overexposing yourself.
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If he has no intention of attacking you dont need 2 factories for tanks since you dont nedd tanks to contest with him.
Being really aggressive about denying bases is the key. Take iron fortress, when he goes for a 4th base you can hit the main, natural or third with drops or even just run in. If he has huge missle turret lines you can use pdd to get in. He has to respond with a large force and when he does you can. Stim into the 3rd or 4th. One of these will be lightly defended.
Dont forget against pdd you can target them down with marines so they essentially waste energy and your marauders are good to go.
Do this and expand like crazy and get the air transition ready and you should have an easier time
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I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks.
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On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks.
Bunker surrounded by depots should do the job.
If you mean he sends his whole army to your third, I imagine it's a 10:30-11:30 timing? Seems a bit weird, a non-allin Zerg army off-creep will be very weak at that time. Just move your army to his third and basetrade while bunkering up your natural should work. But if you can post a replay it's easier to say.
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On August 09 2015 21:01 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
I just tested it out. 4 Reapers beat a hellion even with 8(!) workers repairing the hellion.
........ where did i say ur only going to have 1 hellion? u obviously keep constant marine production. I thought that was a given???? u hit once with hellion, back off until attack delay is gone and hit again, repeat etc..... . its very simple micro that any terran should be able to do
you can also just post a replay
In most scenarios you should have 2 marines positioned to deny the first reaper. This is what you should almost always do with your first marines in TvT. Against a proxy version while going gas first, you probably only have 1 marine, in which case you should start pulling some SCVs immediately. If neither marine dies, you're in a great position. 3-4 marines + SCVs beats reapers easily, the hellion just seals the deal
You also mentioned going 2/1/1 to counter this. I'm not exactly sure of the build order you're referring to but you can just do a barracks first variant of 1/1/1 with 12 or 13 supply gas. This way you're going to have 1 extra marine which is huge in preventing the reapers from snowballing. Of course, this means your hellions will be delayed but keeping your marine count healthy is far more important against reaper cheese
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/466108-tvt-the-definitive-guide-to-the-8-8-8
you might want to check out this old guide to better understand the timings of defending the 8 8 8.
Basically you have to understand when you have to position your marines forward and when it is suicide to not have them near your workers to buy enough time for your hellion to come into play. Usually, if you manage to get to a banshee, you have won the game.
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Hi!
I am looking for replays of Maru playing TvP to look at some details that can't be seen in VODs.
Do you know where I can find some?
Thank you! 
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On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks.
If you're playing against zergs who you know have a habit of counterattacking, then you need to leave enough army at your third to dissuade this, so maybe 2 medivacs worth of units in addition to 4 marines in a bunker. When you push you can either also push with this army in such a way that it cuts off the counterattack and rejoins your main army or you can use it to attack at another location so you can prevent zerg from chasing your main army if it's beaten back. See the way Dream and Taeja play against Life to see how to do this perfectly.
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On August 17 2015 17:11 Absentia wrote:
I'm getting wrecked by counter attacks in TvZ. As a specific example, when I do my push to snipe the zerg's fourth I find that most zergs will just counter attack, destroying my third/scvs. How do I respond to this? Is there some preventative measure I'm missing? It's a particular problem on maps like terraform where there are so many entrances into the third.
Thanks.
If he's really committing a significant portion of his army to a run by/counterattack while you are at his front doorstep than just initiate a base trade. You are Terran...your buildings fly.
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EPT
