EPTHowever, past early game I don't see widow mines being very effective after the protoss gets observers out.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 28
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
However, past early game I don't see widow mines being very effective after the protoss gets observers out. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On March 29 2013 11:59 awakenx wrote: I found widow mines very useful vs early protoss allins However, past early game I don't see widow mines being very effective after the protoss gets observers out. Yeah, but there's a beautiful transition: after the Factory is finished making the Starport reactor, have it make another Reactor and build your 2nd E-bay/Armory. Then, when Reactor on the Factory finishes, make Hellbats. Proceed to profit against any composition that involves a non-zero number of Zealots. | ||
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EZR-Aeron
New Zealand64 Posts
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote: Yes, this was already something common at the end of WoL (e. g. Bogus vs Taeja, Daybreak, Code S RO16). Dream was also going this kind of opening against Mvp in their Akilon Wastes game at IEM, though the mutual harass ended up disrupting the thing. Another instance can be found in Bogus vs Flash, Whirlwind, MLG. Another possibility is to get Tanks to cover the early third and dual EB, e. g. Bogus vs Flash, Neo Planet S, MLG (makes you turtly though). Maybe we didn't see the same games, but the build DeMusliM is using lately on his stream is not a 1-1-1 expand but gas 15 Marine Marine reactor CC fact port, landing the Factory on the Reactor after 6 Marines. Yeah when I said "1/1/1 expand" I meant exactly what you described above  | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On March 29 2013 10:56 owned4ursake wrote: Can anyone recommend a new 2 base timing attack against toss in HOTS? I was used to the 10 min medivac +1, stim, shields timing against toss after a gasless expand but now I feel it gets shut down pretty hard by MSC. Also is it still safe to 1 rax gasless expand? I feel with the 2 stalker 1 MSC poke that many toss do recently, it is quite hard to pull off. One thing I've messed around with to some success is going for a marine tank elevator. The nexus cannon makes attacking the front a tricky business but if you siege up around a cliff and work on pushing his infrastructure the Protoss is forced to fight you anyway, My most successful tank pushes are generally after I open with the LGIM 1/1/1 expand and I've deflected some move from the Protoss such as oracle harass. I feel the Protoss is a bit vulnerable at this point and this is the best punish. The problem with heavy two base timings vs Protoss is the chance they get scouted. Protoss scout a lot with msc and hallucinations early and Midgame so its hard to surprise them with something allinnish. Medivac play tends to struggle a bit more trying to just break the front with a push but its much better at harassing and keeping the p hemmed in. Also I think cc first and one rax fe are still viable unlike what thedwf argues. A properly timed bunker keeps gateway units out and it only takes three marines to chase off a msc. I do like to spend my first fifty gas on a reaper for scouting which has saved me a few times, plus having an scv or two scouting the map and trying to sneak into their base sometimes helps. I haven't gotten much use out mines apart from the early game defence or Harass, both roles they excel at. I guess you could get a raven really early to keep observers in check and sprinkle mines everywhere like an enormous arse but that's pure hypothesiscraft at this stage. As others have mentioned the hellbat is quite good vs zealots and you should probably just get those instead. As for tvz mines, I think mines are super imbalanced right now. To make sure they get good connections you need to have three or four marines at the tip of their radius so Zerg has to commit a good amount of units to trigger a mine. It gets a Bit messy sinces you'll end up dragging mines onto your own units a lot so you need to spit your marines into smallish groups and constantly send in small squads to pick away at the Zerg and force him to go in. It takes a lot of fights for our bio mine army to wear down the Zerg but its pretty much impossible for them to engage it provided you play properly or they are life. | ||
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nobodywonder
United States848 Posts
I need a good build order, in WoL I always 1 rax FE and its not working so well now in HotS I'm also too afraid of the boosters now, so I don't move out I don't know how to defend against them boosters. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
Im thinking of starting to test this out myself - Yes the upgrades are seperate, but since firebats are super tanky + rapes the shit out of chargelots, I dont see why we cannot try playing super greedy (if no double gas, double expand, fast 6 gas quad upgrades) I thought about this in the shower since 1. I really like to play greedy and if it works Im hoping to use it in TvZ too, 2. Its pointless to open in TvP off a 2 base since its too expensive and marines early on is too useful against double gas stargate early builds.... On March 29 2013 15:47 nobodywonder wrote: In TvT, I'm utterly confused how to play. I need a good build order, in WoL I always 1 rax FE and its not working so well now in HotS I'm also too afraid of the boosters now, so I don't move out I don't know how to defend against them boosters. 1 rax FE fast bunker at front + scout. If opponent is expanding - Throw down another CC, double gas (for fast stim), make OC on nat. You should have about 300 mineral right when your gas finishes - throw down double rax + techlab on first one, leave a marine/scout outside between your base and his base, fill up the bunker at nat, and rally the rest of the marines into your main. Scan with your third orbital to see what composition he is going and whether he is going for a fast drop play. If rax heavy (should be standard these days) From here - double reactor when you have 100 gas and throw down double engi bay right after - constant marines rally into nat getting ready to snipe any dropships. Double upgrades when engis finish, throw down factory immediately when you can, and get gas 3 and 4. When factory finishes, throw down starport + armory + reactor on factory. You armory should finish just when 1/1 is getting done. Float out your third + grab gas 5 and 6, throw down rax 4+5 and another factory if needed and move out with dropships. You should have quite a decent amount of marines. If he attacks early with some 1/1/1 build - dont fret. Your stim timing should be almost on par as the opponents so dont be afraid to go out, force some sieges, see what you can snipe (ships are usually ahead, sniping those is amazing), delay him as much as possible without losing too much while building up a massive amount of marines. If his control is any good he WILL siege up near your base, and will constantly try to move his tanks forward. He should not have over 2 tanks at this point, so if he unsieges one tank and tries to move it foward, grab ~3-4 scvs and run foward with all the marines, snipe the foward tank, and retreat. Delay until stim finishes then just grab a bunch of scvs and stim everything foward in a nice spread Your econ should still be massively ahead due to fast third and mules - upgrades will be much faster than his due to fast double engi bay vs his early tanks. When medevacs are out - proceed to take map control and follow the build order, begin dual pronging the opponent if possible. This build is very risky against someone who hits early with the same thing except without the fast third - he will have more marines and he will play aggressive knowing you expanded early. Do NOT move out easily against this kind of opponent - keep turrets ready and do NOT move out until you have at least 2-4 tanks. Thankfully you wont be running into this kind of people until KR masters. If opponent opens early gas - same build until after bunkers, throw down double rax then double gas, proceed as normal without the third. Expand when you are moving out with the medevacs. If opponent is doing double reapers - fuck the expansion and grab double gas ~15. Bunker at ramp. Keep a marine in there and try to camp the other routes if the map allows it. grab a fast factory, take out 1 scv from each geyser. When his reaper gets in grab twice the amount of scvs as his reapers and chase him. Have the marine behind the scv train and do damage as possible. Try not to lose anything. Once the hellion gets out it should be a piece of cake - If he doesnt GG here, make starport right after factory and start playing with banshees while expanding. Banshee priorities - Marines (if low amount) > techlab (if upgrading) > SCVS - reasoning? Killing his marines gives you free reign over his entire shit to the point where theres really nothing stopping you from just moving out with everything and go kill him. Killing his techlab when stim is undone is a terrible, terrible thing you can do to a terran - Im sure you've all had that moment in TvP when hes allinning you and manages to snipe the techlab before stim finishes. Shits gay. Yes this build works in TvZ if your micro is good. No it doesnt work after KR top diamond unless you are have really really good micro, and even then there are much better builds to abuse your micro. No in TvP 1 rax FE into double techlab single reactor is much better. | ||
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mika0023
Germany11 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 29 2013 20:15 mika0023 wrote: Why do Terrans not use Battlecruisers ? I rarely saw them in WoL and now in HoTs it seems like this unit doesnt even exist Personally I think the big, big, big reason is corrupters are really good against them and no pros really mech so you don't see them in TvP. In TvT I'd say it's because vikings can kite them and air control, is way more important in SC2 than it was in SC1 as nobody really built wraiths, where as everyone gets vikings. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Marathi
298 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
On March 29 2013 20:25 Qikz wrote: Personally I think the big, big, big reason is corrupters are really good against them and no pros really mech so you don't see them in TvP. In TvT I'd say it's because vikings can kite them and air control, is way more important in SC2 than it was in SC1 as nobody really built wraiths, where as everyone gets vikings. If it gets to really lategame bc/thor beats viking/tank since you can use yamato to snipe tanks and thors punish viking stacking which happens if they try to focus fire | ||
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Tactical
United States77 Posts
On March 29 2013 22:26 Marathi wrote: Is the 2base hellion/marauder still successful in TvZ in HotS? If so does anyone have a build order? Much love<333 Yes, in fact, up until a month ago when blizzard required an armory to ugprade transformation servos, many players were using 2 base hellion/hellbat marauder pushes. Although it's more or less all-in'ish. But the foundation of the build is still generally the same, as the only thing that's really changed TvZ metagame before that timing is the possibility of reapers. Not sure of the tournament, but I think there was a game last month of Polt vs. DRG on Akilon Flats where he showed an excellent example of the build. This is approximate as I haven't seen the VOD in awhile. But this is roughly how I would do it. 10 Depot 15 Command Center 16 Barracks 17 Gas Build 2 Marines out of your Barracks when it completes. 19 Double Orbital 19 Bunker 20 Depot Reactor+Factory when second marine completes and you have 150 Gas After Factory/Reactor completes swap the factory onto the reactor, and build a tech lab on your barracks. Take your second gas, and build 2 additional barracks and your engineering bay after your first 2 hellions are in production (might be after you start your third/fourth hellions) Start stim and +1 attack as soon as you can, and add two more tech labs to your additional barracks when they complete, after 6-8 hellions cut production and focus completely on building marauders. Push their natural right as stim/+1 completes, bring scv's if you want. You could probably optimize including an armory in there to produce hellbats instead of hellions but your push will be slightly later and is even more all-in. On March 29 2013 20:15 mika0023 wrote: Why do Terrans not use Battlecruisers ? I rarely saw them in WoL and now in HoTs it seems like this unit doesnt even exist Because battlecruisers take a lot of supply and time to produce, for their quite terrible dps, excluding yamato cannon. They're slow, and easily abused via a more mobile army. Someone with more vikings and a couple ravens to HSM usually negates the use of having a battlecruiser at all as they can kite all day around them. They're really only useful for pushing back a mech contain against someone who is underprepared for it, and even then, they don't survive that long unless you spend several minutes upgrading them to 3/3. And there are far quicker/more efficient means of breaking contains than battlecruisers. They can be feedbacked by high templar, corruptors rape them, and now thors have their high impact payload making them even more useless. Just having more vikings and an occasional raven for HSM/PDD helps with air superiority far more than bc's. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On March 29 2013 20:15 mika0023 wrote: Why do Terrans not use Battlecruisers ? I rarely saw them in WoL and now in HoTs it seems like this unit doesnt even exist Because BCs die very quickly if unescorted. The ideal mix is tough to balance between Vikings, Ravens and BCs. BC fleets are high maintence as well and need good vision due to their slow movement. Just saw a HTOMario vs. Catz game. The BC fleet could have been better managed IMHO with some Thors used as Anti-corruptor cover fire. I'm a believer in the Thor burst damage mode because it complements BC's high dps low dmg attacks (comparatively speaking) aka chip damage, and unlike the javelin missile, hits instantly much like a marine's attack. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On March 29 2013 23:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I'm a believer in the Thor burst damage mode because it complements BC's high dps low dmg attacks (comparatively speaking) aka chip damage, and unlike the javelin missile, hits instantly much like a marine's attack. Bear in mind that since BC's are beefy, they will usually be focus-fired, so the corruptors are prone to stacking, which javelin missiles scale much better off of | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
On March 29 2013 23:00 Tactical wrote: Yes, in fact, up until a month ago when blizzard required an armory to ugprade transformation servos, many players were using 2 base hellion/hellbat marauder pushes. Although it's more or less all-in'ish. But the foundation of the build is still generally the same, as the only thing that's really changed TvZ metagame before that timing is the possibility of reapers. Not sure of the tournament, but I think there was a game last month of Polt vs. DRG on Akilon Flats where he showed an excellent example of the build. This is approximate as I haven't seen the VOD in awhile. But this is roughly how I would do it. 10 Depot 15 Command Center 16 Barracks 17 Gas Build 2 Marines out of your Barracks when it completes. 19 Double Orbital 19 Bunker 20 Depot Reactor+Factory when second marine completes and you have 150 Gas After Factory/Reactor completes swap the factory onto the reactor, and build a tech lab on your barracks. Take your second gas, and build 2 additional barracks and your engineering bay after your first 2 hellions are in production (might be after you start your third/fourth hellions) Start stim and +1 attack as soon as you can, and add two more tech labs to your additional barracks when they complete, after 6-8 hellions cut production and focus completely on building marauders. Push their natural right as stim/+1 completes, bring scv's if you want. You could probably optimize including an armory in there to produce hellbats instead of hellions but your push will be slightly later and is even more all-in. Thanks I'll have a play around with it. Yea I think Hellbats are a very big investment for such an early time of the game and I don't think they're much stronger vs banelings so probably better to stick with hellions I guess | ||
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Tactical
United States77 Posts
On March 29 2013 23:16 Marathi wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 29 2013 23:00 Tactical wrote: Yes, in fact, up until a month ago when blizzard required an armory to ugprade transformation servos, many players were using 2 base hellion/hellbat marauder pushes. Although it's more or less all-in'ish. But the foundation of the build is still generally the same, as the only thing that's really changed TvZ metagame before that timing is the possibility of reapers. Not sure of the tournament, but I think there was a game last month of Polt vs. DRG on Akilon Flats where he showed an excellent example of the build. This is approximate as I haven't seen the VOD in awhile. But this is roughly how I would do it. 10 Depot 15 Command Center 16 Barracks 17 Gas Build 2 Marines out of your Barracks when it completes. 19 Double Orbital 19 Bunker 20 Depot Reactor+Factory when second marine completes and you have 150 Gas After Factory/Reactor completes swap the factory onto the reactor, and build a tech lab on your barracks. Take your second gas, and build 2 additional barracks and your engineering bay after your first 2 hellions are in production (might be after you start your third/fourth hellions) Start stim and +1 attack as soon as you can, and add two more tech labs to your additional barracks when they complete, after 6-8 hellions cut production and focus completely on building marauders. Push their natural right as stim/+1 completes, bring scv's if you want. You could probably optimize including an armory in there to produce hellbats instead of hellions but your push will be slightly later and is even more all-in. Thanks I'll have a play around with it. Yea I think Hellbats are a very big investment for such an early time of the game and I don't think they're much stronger vs banelings so probably better to stick with hellions I guess Played around a little bit with it myself, here's a game I did against an AI just to play around a little bit, managed to get a decent timing down, around the same time as the normal marauder hellion push. http://drop.sc/315486 The thing about the build is that, because it's semi-allin, the opponent can prepare for it as long as he scouts and knows how to react. Example, the AI had just enough to hold the first bit of pressure, but the average player won't have roach hydra that early, as they're all trying to cut corners and drone up as hard as they can, either on ling/bane setting up for mutas/infestors, or roach/hydra but until mid-masters, you can probably still have a high success rate with it until you start playing people who know how to balance their unit composition properly to what they see. If you don't bring scv's with your push, you should still be able to kill their third hatch, but focus the drones with the hellbats while you get your own third up. As long as you can hit by like, 9:30ish with stim and +1, (maybe work in +1 armor for hellbats to help with banes? idk) you should be able to deal a significant amount of damage against a player saving resources for mutas before they pop, and give you enough time to turret up or switch / add reactor rax. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
Game 1: Did some damage in natural but got caught in a lot of bad engagements on creep then he got muta and I wasn't ready for it. If I had brought my SCVs probably could've won with initial push. http://drop.sc/315492 Game 2: He scouted early with drone saw I was going CC first and pushed me with a big ling/bling attack which I wasn't ready for. Should've blocked my natural ramp rather than near my CC I think. http://drop.sc/315491 Still need a lot of practise yet, my timings are probably very sloppy. I will check your replay | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On March 29 2013 23:14 101toss wrote: Bear in mind that since BC's are beefy, they will usually be focus-fired, so the corruptors are prone to stacking, which javelin missiles scale much better off of Yes, I agree to some extent, however, corruptors will spread out after the initial a-move command, negating any stacking (0.5 radius). | ||
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Tactical
United States77 Posts
Aside from that, your hellions are popping out a little bit late, your first two should be out as close to 6:45 as possible. Yours popped out at 7:31, almost 45 seconds later. You want to use those two first hellions to scout, don't throw them away, but you need to know what your opponent is doing. At 6:45 on the game on whirlwind, the banelings were just starting to morph and you could have picked them off pretty easily if your hellions were out on time. Holding ling/bane all-in's that early is all about kiting and picking off as many lings/banes as you can with your hellions while you stall and get more bunkers up. Also, back on star station, you killed 15 drones during your attack, which naturally he just re-made (but hey, that was 15 extra drones he couldn't have) but instead of taking a third and setting up defenses, you just kept streaming units across the map. I think that was your biggest fault. After your first attack if you had just tech'd to medevacs and took a third and continued your ugprades you would have been in much better shape. Also don't forget to macro up, you were floating quite a bit, add that starport and your fourth through sixth barracks as soon as you can after you throw down your third. You saw the spire morphing, having those extra reactored rax for marines would have helped quite a bit, as well as setting up a few turrets here and there for defending. Your SCV count wasnt far behind his drone count after your pressure, but you were just a little slow adding additional production. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
I normally don't have a lot of time to play outside of work and other hobbies so I always look for an offensive 1 or 2 base allin which can be performed quickly. So that's why I continued to push across instead of grabbing my third and going for a longer game Thanks again | ||
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