EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 29
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
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ognennyy
United States9 Posts
On March 16 2013 09:20 Vari wrote: did anyone catch innovation vs huk game 2? demuslim has been doing that build on his stream tvp but I'm misunderstanding something about it. what is the gas timing? I went through some of demuslim's vods but it's a tedious way to find it, especially since it's hardly the only tvp build he's doing. the one I found from the last few days has him taking gas @ 15 but I'm curious if anyone caught exactly how innovation did it. it's reactor-on-rax expand, then adds a fac and starport off 1 gas to do a 4 marine/2 mine drop. then you add 2 rax and a tech lab on the fac and starport to start mmm upgrades. it's a great build obviously but I am just trying to get the exact gas timing down. don't have the MLG pass for this event (although I expect by the end of tomorrow's games I'll buy it just to steal builds) but if I can grab this one from someone here that'd be great. I've experimented as well with some expand / widow mine drop builds, and I agree they're great builds and are quite fun! I am having one issue that plagues this style of TvP build, regardless of the exact details of the build; by taking early gas (early enough that his scouting probe sees it) you increase the chances of an early robo and obs from the Protoss. At least in my mind, encouraging an early observer but then going for a widow mine drop seems almost like a Protoss in a PvZ opening Phoenix, forcing hydras, then following up with 6-gate chargelots. To be honest when I execute this build I usually kill 6-8 probes. Then again I am only platinum league. If I actually go through with my drop it means the Protoss has opted for an expansion, so I drop one widow mine at one mineral line, then drop the marines and second mine at the second mineral line. it's usually only due to taxation on my opponent's multi-tasking that I get any probes at all. Then I am forced to high-tail it out before I lose the medivac. I guess my point is this: Why drop mines at all after you've essentially forced observers? I can certainly kill 6-7 probes with 8 stimmed marines in a drop around the same time, and moreover it's less apm intensive than microing both marines and burrowing mines - in two locations - at the same time. It feels to me like dropping mines on a Protoss whom you know to have observers out is a little like playing the lottery; you're hoping to get lucky. Granted maybe you do get lucky and he was stupid and only made one observer, and send it straight to your base. Most of the time, however, I lose one of the mines and - if I'm not very careful - I lose the other mine and / or the medivac as I try to rescue it. One argument I came up with in favor of this build is that I can use the widow mines defensively if the Protoss comes with oracles or phoenixes, and it pretty much hard counters those builds. If they go for 3-gate or 4-gate aggression (only happens 5% of the time maybe) the mines prove very helpful as well. Worthless against DT builds, worthless against immortal busts, mildly helpful against VR all ins. I dunno, TBH the build just doesn't make a whole ton of sense to me. When I play masters Protoss players most of them don't overdo the gimicks; they may go 1 oracle, but they're intelligent enough to see that I'm going to have widow mines so they stop oracle production and just use it for map control. Or more often than not, they aim to take an early economic advantage and move more quickly toward late game. When a Protoss opens late-game oriented, having myself built to a widow mine opener seems to put me immediately behind. Now I'm stuck with some widow mines which are worthless (due to obs), early gas, and a CC much later than his nexus, and I can't figure out how to make those widow mines pay for themselves. What am I missing? | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/2403674 | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Emporium
England162 Posts
I like to 1rax fe or cc first generally, but have been trying to do some 2rax opens aswell to put pressure on, and get some eco advantage, but feel like im not doing enough and as soon as we get to 3/4 bases they can get this super ht/colossus/void ray composition. As i understand it, im just not doing enough in the midgame, but I dont feel like the drops i utilise do enough damage against a good player, with ht's and cannons defening they still get shut down even with the boost. Watching demu, he does some 1raxexpo into a 211, with earlier medi's and stim. Kinda posting to hope that im not the only one having these issues cos I am really struggling. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On March 30 2013 04:10 Garmer wrote: safest build to fast expand with mech play against all race? Well I siege expand in all three matchups and although you don't expand as quickly as 1 rax expand, I'm yet to find an all in to kill me minus baneling all ins if my tank is slightly late. | ||
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noSec
Brazil37 Posts
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SoulCapsule
France806 Posts
On March 30 2013 05:45 noSec wrote: Does anybody know the build Demuslim uses agains terran? It's a push with marines, hellions, medivacs, etc... | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 30 2013 04:10 Garmer wrote: safest build to fast expand with mech play against all race? reactor hellion, can make some widow mines instead of hellions if your hellions spot roaches. There are some instances where its useful to start making siege tanks though (tvp blink all-in), tvt if hes not expanding and going for a fast push. in tvt or tvp if youve scouted that they havent expanded it can often be useful to get a starport before expanding that way you can get a viking out if stargate play or theyre trying to drop you or a raven if you need detection. often youll use the starport against zerg to get banshees for map control. its essentially a defensive 1-1-1, it may not be the most economical style but i find it very safe and you can use your defensive units, hellions, mines etc to harrass with medivacs once you know you're safe. versus zerg you can do a 1 rax expand into this 1-1-1 type build and its still safe but not against p and t unless you're very confident at your ability to hold various all-ins. you go 12 rax 13 gas make 2 marines factory at 100 gas reactor on rax at 50 gas swap them starport at 150 gas there are so many different units you can build doing this that there is not a set time you get your 2nd cc or 2nd gas, basically get your 2nd cc when you feel safe. i usually dont get 2nd gas until i make my 2nd cc but you can get it earlier if you to get cloaked banshees or an early raven or things like that. then soon after you get a 2nd factory which you put a techlab on some you can make tanks against zerg you can be a bit more economic and skip 2nd supply depot to make a cc, then get double gas, then 2nd supply depot. if you want to mech in all matchups htomarios youtube channel could be very helpful (gm mech player) http://www.youtube.com/feed/UC2zqKOyQkZgVj-YJqsBnjQQ edit: as a poster above me said siege expands are very safe and can work well. the major downside to them i find is there is no way to punish a very greedy player and you give up all map control, but if you just want to be safe its a great opener. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 30 2013 05:56 KingofGods wrote: How do you best transition to air against zerg? It seems every time I am transitioning they attack with their zergling / ultralisk army and destroy all my production buildings. replays would help, are you trying to switch too early, or on too low economy? you shouldnt really be making the transition until you are pretty much maxed | ||
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lamiller
United States92 Posts
On March 30 2013 04:42 Emporium wrote: Im finding it really hard versus toss at the moment, to do any significant midgame harass. (top 8 dia) Im pushing for masters, but my tvp is just awful. I like to 1rax fe or cc first generally, but have been trying to do some 2rax opens aswell to put pressure on, and get some eco advantage, but feel like im not doing enough and as soon as we get to 3/4 bases they can get this super ht/colossus/void ray composition. As i understand it, im just not doing enough in the midgame, but I dont feel like the drops i utilise do enough damage against a good player, with ht's and cannons defening they still get shut down even with the boost. Watching demu, he does some 1raxexpo into a 211, with earlier medi's and stim. Kinda posting to hope that im not the only one having these issues cos I am really struggling. This is a really good question, but I think you may underestimating what drops do. Yes, drops are for damage but more importantly they keep your opponents focus towards the drop and away from just teching. Even with the threat of drops or any form of pressure that is going to throw the protoss a little bit off their game. Obviously, the value of this decreases as the skill rises. Moving on from that, 2 racks pressure is really risky because you are almost forced to damage or you are vastly behind. The biggest problem with this is what happens if the 2 racks pressure is scouted right around the 4 and a half minute mark. This is even easier for the Toss to scout because of the Momma Core. Most decent protoss players will send their momma core just to get a quick scout around you base and if this does occur then you can almost kiss your 2 racks pressure good bye. Hmmm. I'm kind of shocked you've been dealing with voidrays as they aren't that good against mmmvg. But anyways, this is a very tricky part of the matchup. There is just a lot of splash damage that you have to watch out for. Obviously there are some blatant strategies you can do but pretty much the goal is to just trade cost efficiently because as a Terran we can rebuild our composition faster then the Toss can minus gateway units of course. This is so because Voids/Colossi take a great deal of time to rebuild. So what your left with when you bring in your second wave is less void/colossi and more zealot HT/Archon but as long as you can keep their resources shifted to gateway units then you have a great chance at winning. But this is a very slow process if the both players are playing it right. If you could post a replay I would love to analyze it and give you my feedback. | ||
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EZR-Aeron
New Zealand64 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
On March 30 2013 06:22 ThePianoDentist wrote: replays would help, are you trying to switch too early, or on too low economy? you shouldnt really be making the transition until you are pretty much maxed I usually transition when I am maxed with like a 10k bank. BCs and ravens just don't kill ultra / ling all that quickly. That being said, I usually win my games but I hate having such a big bank with inability to use it because of lack of production buildings / supply depots. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 30 2013 06:21 ThePianoDentist wrote: reactor hellion, can make some widow mines instead of hellions if your hellions spot roaches. There are some instances where its useful to start making siege tanks though (tvp blink all-in), tvt if hes not expanding and going for a fast push. in tvt or tvp if youve scouted that they havent expanded it can often be useful to get a starport before expanding that way you can get a viking out if stargate play or theyre trying to drop you or a raven if you need detection. often youll use the starport against zerg to get banshees for map control. its essentially a defensive 1-1-1, it may not be the most economical style but i find it very safe and you can use your defensive units, hellions, mines etc to harrass with medivacs once you know you're safe. versus zerg you can do a 1 rax expand into this 1-1-1 type build and its still safe but not against p and t unless you're very confident at your ability to hold various all-ins. you go 12 rax 13 gas make 2 marines factory at 100 gas reactor on rax at 50 gas swap them starport at 150 gas there are so many different units you can build doing this that there is not a set time you get your 2nd cc or 2nd gas, basically get your 2nd cc when you feel safe. i usually dont get 2nd gas until i make my 2nd cc but you can get it earlier if you to get cloaked banshees or an early raven or things like that. then soon after you get a 2nd factory which you put a techlab on some you can make tanks against zerg you can be a bit more economic and skip 2nd supply depot to make a cc, then get double gas, then 2nd supply depot. if you want to mech in all matchups htomarios youtube channel could be very helpful (gm mech player) http://www.youtube.com/feed/UC2zqKOyQkZgVj-YJqsBnjQQ edit: as a poster above me said siege expands are very safe and can work well. the major downside to them i find is there is no way to punish a very greedy player and you give up all map control, but if you just want to be safe its a great opener. This is very well written. Basically, this is currently your go-to mech build you can use in master league and have great success. I personally find it hard to beat better opponents without some kind of pressure (most people don't expect mech player to drop, so you can catch people off guard). Strelok and Goody are 2 players to look at if you want to see some high level mech working. Also, check out HTOMario, as mentioned, he does some crazy mech stuff all day long. Hopefully we see Blizzard helping mech a bit more in the next patch, because now it seems like it just flat out died in HotS. | ||
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ognennyy
United States9 Posts
My issue is when I decide to move out with, say, a conventional 2/2/1 upgrades timing after taking my third. Reading the question entitled "How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well?/How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good?" under the TvZ mid-game section, in the original Terran Help Me OP at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694, I find an excellent and detailed explanation of how to move out for a push. Unfortunately I'm personally finding those tactics looking "better on paper" when it comes to Bel'shir. On Bel'shir Vestige the Zerg sees your army at all times. The OP overlord high-ground hiding spots are particularly numerable on Bel'shir, and of course it's also impossible to deny the Zerg the towers since they're both directly in the middle on Bel'shir. Regarding the pre-splitting, Bel'shir has so much wildly varying terrain and narrow corridors that pre-splitting becomes overwhelmingly difficult for me. The perimeter of the map is lined with dead air space (aka overlord hangouts). I can't set up a drop to distract the Zerg while I unsiege and move out. These factors usually result in my army getting blown up before I can even hit the siege key. I've practiced moving out several times by taking command of replays of my Bel'shir games. It's helped some; forced me to think more about exactly where I'm moving my army and why, and made me familiar with the travel paths it will take. Unfortunately as I practice all I can see is all the places I have to pass where the Zerg will have full vision of my army, and know when to charge me. Conclusions I've been able to draw so far: 1) The only practical way to push on Bel'shir is to leap frog, starting with the moment I come into range of the towers (historically Zerg seem most comfortable charging only once I approach the edge of their creep). This "practical" push is entirely impractical, since in the time a slow push would take to get across Bel'shir the Zerg could tech from hatchery to Hive. Following this line of thought, is bio / tank just a horrible strat for Bel'shir? 2) I should devise a build incorporating very early overlord and creep removal, specifically designed for Bel'shir. Perhaps something like a 1/1/1 with a quick viking into widow mines, since I will likely see mutas shortly after my viking starts bringing down overlords. I'd love to hear any thoughts. I'm very lost in TvZ on Bel'shir. Is no one else having similar issues? | ||
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xluik
201 Posts
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Tactical
United States77 Posts
On March 30 2013 09:29 ognennyy wrote: I find mid-game TvZ on Bel'shir Vestige very difficult at the moment. This is due in large part to the map vision / awareness that Bel'shir affords a Zerg, and in smaller part to the incredibly varied terrain I must traverse in order to push. This deadly combo nearly always leads to me having my push crushed while I'm unsieged. My issue is when I decide to move out with, say, a conventional 2/2/1 upgrades timing after taking my third. Reading the question entitled "How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well?/How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good?" under the TvZ mid-game section, in the original Terran Help Me OP at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694, I find an excellent and detailed explanation of how to move out for a push. Unfortunately I'm personally finding those tactics looking "better on paper" when it comes to Bel'shir. On Bel'shir Vestige the Zerg sees your army at all times. The OP overlord high-ground hiding spots are particularly numerable on Bel'shir, and of course it's also impossible to deny the Zerg the towers since they're both directly in the middle on Bel'shir. Regarding the pre-splitting, Bel'shir has so much wildly varying terrain and narrow corridors that pre-splitting becomes overwhelmingly difficult for me. The perimeter of the map is lined with dead air space (aka overlord hangouts). I can't set up a drop to distract the Zerg while I unsiege and move out. These factors usually result in my army getting blown up before I can even hit the siege key. I've practiced moving out several times by taking command of replays of my Bel'shir games. It's helped some; forced me to think more about exactly where I'm moving my army and why, and made me familiar with the travel paths it will take. Unfortunately as I practice all I can see is all the places I have to pass where the Zerg will have full vision of my army, and know when to charge me. Conclusions I've been able to draw so far: 1) The only practical way to push on Bel'shir is to leap frog, starting with the moment I come into range of the towers (historically Zerg seem most comfortable charging only once I approach the edge of their creep). This "practical" push is entirely impractical, since in the time a slow push would take to get across Bel'shir the Zerg could tech from hatchery to Hive. Following this line of thought, is bio / tank just a horrible strat for Bel'shir? 2) I should devise a build incorporating very early overlord and creep removal, specifically designed for Bel'shir. Perhaps something like a 1/1/1 with a quick viking into widow mines, since I will likely see mutas shortly after my viking starts bringing down overlords. I'd love to hear any thoughts. I'm very lost in TvZ on Bel'shir. Is no one else having similar issues? There's a few ways you can even the fight. Use widow mines for map control/vision like a zerg uses creep tumors. Use the high ground terrain when you're pushing. Use early hellions or reapers for map control to keep creep pushed back, and every time you push, make sure to scan and clear out the tumors along your attack paths to shove it back in his face. Bio/Tank has pretty much died off in HoTS though, as widow mines are cheaper, can be reactor/produced, and the zerg has to be much more aware when he attacks into you. It lets you be much more aggressive and mobile with the drilling claws upgrade than bio/tank as well. And tanks can be pulled out of position via vipers. But if you're set on bio/tank, just make a second factory and start producing widow mines to give you a little map vision as well. Worst case scenario, you can always bunker/turret/leap frog slow push 2010 jinro style across the map. | ||
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lamiller
United States92 Posts
On March 30 2013 11:10 xluik wrote: Hi... I am a mid diamond random player on NA and have been losing a significant portion of my games to doom drops with all matchup. Since it happens most of the times on my TvT, can anyone suggest ways to improve myself in dealing with this. I think it is very important to put up sensor towers because it gives you a little bit of a vision and prep before the drop hits. Also, what you could do is put a widow main or two in the likely point of entry of the medivacs because the main goal of a doom drop is to destroy your opponents production, so putting up a couple of widow mines and having a 2 layer turret system would be beneficial. So what I mean by 2 layer turret system is where you have one on the edge of your main and then you have a 2nd one like 4 or 5 yards away from it but moving towards the middle of the base. This provides a good overlapping of turret and increases damage duration on the incoming medivacs. Does this answer your question? | ||
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