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Requesting a Master's or higher player to check my thought process in TvP right now:
I have two main openings - Reaper and Reactor FE, all leading to standard bio play. I know that when I build lots of Mines plus Bunkers and/or Turrets I end up being safe, but I'm trying to pare it down to get the bare essentials so I can sink money into my infrastructure and economy instead of defending non-existant threats.
When I scout Stargate play (not proxied), is it worth it to take some Marines off the front and park them in the mineral lines? I know that a Widow Mine 1-shots an Oracle, so do I want to maybe sacrifice 1 or 2 SCVs to bait it into the Mine shot, or do I practice prophylaxis and put 6 Marines on the outskirts to ward them off. Once the initial Oracle is deflected or killed, should there be certain key 'tells' that let me know whether or not he's going to be continuing the harass or trying to power up while it's hard for me to leave the base until my Turrets come up?
Slightly tangential to this: Byun did a very cool Reaper opening versus Vines last night in GSTL (I won't spoiler the results), going 12-rax, 13-gas, Reaper -> Tech Lab + Stim -> E-bay BEFORE additional Rax. Given the later Barracks follow-up, can I use this opening and drop emergency Turrets in case of Stargate, or is it going to leave me too far behind in Marine count?
On March 31 2013 00:45 Jazzman88 wrote: Requesting a Master's or higher player to check my thought process in TvP right now:
I have two main openings - Reaper and Reactor FE, all leading to standard bio play. I know that when I build lots of Mines plus Bunkers and/or Turrets I end up being safe, but I'm trying to pare it down to get the bare essentials so I can sink money into my infrastructure and economy instead of defending non-existant threats.
When I scout Stargate play (not proxied), is it worth it to take some Marines off the front and park them in the mineral lines? I know that a Widow Mine 1-shots an Oracle, so do I want to maybe sacrifice 1 or 2 SCVs to bait it into the Mine shot, or do I practice prophylaxis and put 6 Marines on the outskirts to ward them off. Once the initial Oracle is deflected or killed, should there be certain key 'tells' that let me know whether or not he's going to be continuing the harass or trying to power up while it's hard for me to leave the base until my Turrets come up?
Slightly tangential to this: Byun did a very cool Reaper opening versus Vines last night in GSTL (I won't spoiler the results), going 12-rax, 13-gas, Reaper -> Tech Lab + Stim -> E-bay BEFORE additional Rax. Given the later Barracks follow-up, can I use this opening and drop emergency Turrets in case of Stargate, or is it going to leave me too far behind in Marine count?
Regarding your main question about baiting an oracle by sacrificing SCV's that before stim marines aren't going to be able to kill an oracle unless the Protoss has slow reaction time and just sacrifices the oracle to kill marines. If your opening Reactor FE and you suspect Stargate play you can add on an early E-bay and get turrets in your mineral line.
Regarding your tangent the problem with this build is that it leaves you vulnerable to 3 gate stargate pressure, which can kill you if you use this build. So unless you scout only a 1 gate 1 stargate expand it might not be a good idea to follow up the reaper to with stim, you should use this to build extra bunkers or marines to hold off any pressure.
My personally experience with TvP so far has been either 1 base all-ins or extreme macro by the Protoss. I currently use two main builds a 1 rax FE which i follow up with an E-bay, 2 extra rax and bunkers because this usually baits the protoss into doing some sort of stargate warpgate 1 base all in. If it doesn't and they go for macro your not going to be too far behind because you can start early upgrades and salvage the bunkers.
The other main build I use on random occasions is Select's old 2 rax expand where you go 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC and after that u add a second rax then your second supply depot. On the first rax you go reactor and on the other one you go tech lab. You'll be making marines and marauders and should get concussive shells when you have concussive shells finished you'll attack leading with the marines so that the Protoss doesn't scout the marauders before you get to their base. Also before you leave your base make an E-bay and before you make it to their base you should be able to start a CC and have 1 missile turret in your mineral line. If the Protoss went anything besides mothership core or 3 gate expand you can most likely kill them using basic stutter step and rallying your rax to their natural. If they do go Mcore you can macro up and contain them. If they went 3 gate expand their going to be able to out produce you so try to do some damage before hand to see if you can kill them if not get out and return to base start getting a factory and starport + stim so you can produce medivacs.
On March 31 2013 00:45 Jazzman88 wrote: Requesting a Master's or higher player to check my thought process in TvP right now:
I have two main openings - Reaper and Reactor FE, all leading to standard bio play. I know that when I build lots of Mines plus Bunkers and/or Turrets I end up being safe, but I'm trying to pare it down to get the bare essentials so I can sink money into my infrastructure and economy instead of defending non-existant threats.
When I scout Stargate play (not proxied), is it worth it to take some Marines off the front and park them in the mineral lines? I know that a Widow Mine 1-shots an Oracle, so do I want to maybe sacrifice 1 or 2 SCVs to bait it into the Mine shot, or do I practice prophylaxis and put 6 Marines on the outskirts to ward them off. Once the initial Oracle is deflected or killed, should there be certain key 'tells' that let me know whether or not he's going to be continuing the harass or trying to power up while it's hard for me to leave the base until my Turrets come up?
Slightly tangential to this: Byun did a very cool Reaper opening versus Vines last night in GSTL (I won't spoiler the results), going 12-rax, 13-gas, Reaper -> Tech Lab + Stim -> E-bay BEFORE additional Rax. Given the later Barracks follow-up, can I use this opening and drop emergency Turrets in case of Stargate, or is it going to leave me too far behind in Marine count?
1)If you suspect only stargate pressure (no bust), then a couple of widow mines are probably enough to defend, If you have a starport a single viking makes sure the oracles can't hang around kiting your marines. Only mines in the mineral lines aren't enough to defend because he can miss them or he can come with more than one oracle. The danger of having the marines in your mineral line is if he busts your front, so make sure to scout for that/add a bunker/ leave some stuff at the front. If you decided to go rax->fact->starport, you can add an engibay before +2 rax to start upgrading and get missile turrets in yoru mineral lines. Missile turrets+viking usually means you're quite safe and you can use your mines for offensive purposes, or for covering your front. If you're adding rax before engibay, some more widow mines may be useful to defend. Also sacrificing an scv or 2 to kill an oracle is probably worth it imo.
2)Tells if he's continuing: does he have a natural? does he have forges (preparing for later in the game), does he have robo? (tech switching). Does he have a proxy pylon? (patrol with marines around your entrance/3rd).
I can't commend about the Byun game, but if he went reapers he should be able to scout the protoss tech and respond accordingly - whether by direct scout or by unit counting combined with the earlier gas scout. But as a rule - if you suspect stargate/dt and your opponent has 2 gas, you stand to lose alot more than the 200/300 minerals that the turrets will cost you.
Quick question about lategame TvZ and TvP: Is it ever viable to use barracks in your army composition? Like bringing them with you to land around your army and prevent flanks or get in the way of melee units (like ultras). If it isn't viable, is it still hilarious?
On March 31 2013 05:08 Askray wrote: Quick question about lategame TvZ and TvP: Is it ever viable to use barracks in your army composition? Like bringing them with you to land around your army and prevent flanks or get in the way of melee units (like ultras). If it isn't viable, is it still hilarious?
It sounds interesting, but landing them could be difficult as they are slow and easily blocked. I think perhaps a better use for a building you don't need, e.g. a factory when going bio, is to float it and block an expansion or scout the opposing base with it. As for use in battle, they could be used in defence to wall, but for attacking they would be too slow to get there. Would be hilarious though
On March 31 2013 05:08 Askray wrote: Quick question about lategame TvZ and TvP: Is it ever viable to use barracks in your army composition? Like bringing them with you to land around your army and prevent flanks or get in the way of melee units (like ultras). If it isn't viable, is it still hilarious?
While flying production buildings is a bit cumbersome cause they're slow, and you generally want to be using them to make stuff i ur already gonna make them.. I think you have a potentially interesting idea. You could bring some scvs with your push and use them to wall off the flank path with unfinished engibays/rax, thereby entrenching yourself strongly in a good position. If he comes with banes from the front u can cancel the buildings and get out. Of course this would only work if he doesn't have creep there. As for tvp, a good example of this is using the factory to attract his armies attention as seen often in WoL. It's generally not a bad idea cause it messes up some of his armies attack move, but after it dies it becomes too much of an expense to remake it and in the lategame you want to be very mobile in TvP, and this doesn't allow you to be.
On March 31 2013 05:08 Askray wrote: Quick question about lategame TvZ and TvP: Is it ever viable to use barracks in your army composition? Like bringing them with you to land around your army and prevent flanks or get in the way of melee units (like ultras). If it isn't viable, is it still hilarious?
While flying production buildings is a bit cumbersome cause they're slow, and you generally want to be using them to make stuff i ur already gonna make them.. I think you have a potentially interesting idea. You could bring some scvs with your push and use them to wall off the flank path with unfinished engibays/rax, thereby entrenching yourself strongly in a good position. If he comes with banes from the front u can cancel the buildings and get out. Of course this would only work if he doesn't have creep there. As for tvp, a good example of this is using the factory to attract his armies attention as seen often in WoL. It's generally not a bad idea cause it messes up some of his armies attack move, but after it dies it becomes too much of an expense to remake it and in the lategame you want to be very mobile in TvP, and this doesn't allow you to be.
Dragon uses Nydus as sentries in trollgames So would be fun, but allmost impossible with rax/eng bays. U could use raventurret for the same purpose, to block exits and split attention of opposing army. Even building a couple of flying rax to wall his main/expo off to delay reinforments could help but it's not standard play. Against Z defensive placement of depots or other buildings helps against ultralisks-composition aswell.
Does anyone play a MMM + hellbat style in TvZ? Or would I be better off incorporating mines? I have seen some mentions of the hellbat style (more so on reddit), but would definitely be interested in more detail. My only worry with mines is blowing up my own army and additional micro introduced with them.
Can a someone please list some important scout timings to know in each match up?(assume using reactor rax 2 widow expo)
Some specific ones that i am curious about are: TvP When if ever should i scan a protoss base(to figure out what tech path hes going down)? And where(main/natural) ? When should i expect the protoss to have taken his natural? If he dosent take natural by X time what are some popular all ins that i should prepare for and when do they usually hit?
Hi guys, i was a master terran in WOL but i haven't played HOTS yet and i haven't followed the scene much lately so i don't know how to open in all match-ups. Could you advise me?
On March 31 2013 10:51 Nexic wrote: Does anyone play a MMM + hellbat style in TvZ? Or would I be better off incorporating mines? I have seen some mentions of the hellbat style (more so on reddit), but would definitely be interested in more detail. My only worry with mines is blowing up my own army and additional micro introduced with them.
I currently play a MMM + hellbat + thor style in TvZ. The only time I get mines throughout the game is when i get 2-4 really on and use them for static defense or drops. Your main concern when using this composition is your bio portion of the army, mainly your marines. An easy way to do this is hide your marines behind your thor + hellbat + marauder army and make sure you aren't getting surrounded from behind by banes and zerglings. I personally don't like incorporating mines because they are very hit and miss.
I can add some builds that I use to transition into a MMM + hellbat + thor and what stuff is good to do + what zerg compositions are good against it.
On March 31 2013 11:23 stichtom wrote: Hi guys, i was a master terran in WOL but i haven't played HOTS yet and i haven't followed the scene much lately so i don't know how to open in all match-ups. Could you advise me?
Thank you so much
TvT There are 3-4 main openings that I've seen on ladder or currently use. 1. Reaper expand into bio or bio tank. 2. 1/1/1 expand Variation 1: Marine widow mine drop straight into Banshee or Macro. 3. 1/1/1 expand Variation 2: Marine Hellion drop followed by Banshee or Macro play. 4. 1 Rax FE This is very difficult to pull off and I normally only see it on people who haven't played much HotS yet.
General TvT: Alot of people have been going Hellbat Tank lately it seems like so just watch out for it.
TvP There are 3 opening that I've been using 1. Reactor Rax expand followed up by Window mines 2. 1 Rax FE. This normally prompts some sort of Stargate based all in or extreme macro from the Protoss 3. 2 Rax Expand. This involves getting conc shells and pressuring the Protoss or just containing them if they got a Mcore.
TvZ I've only been using 2 builds mainly. 1. 1 Rax FE. 2. Reaper Expand followed by Hellion Harrass into standard play
That's a nice fun opening TvT for all those interested. 4 hellbat 2 medic drop. Used by ST_Sound I believe in GSTL, casted/walk through by mr Nathanias.
On March 31 2013 10:51 Nexic wrote: Does anyone play a MMM + hellbat style in TvZ? Or would I be better off incorporating mines? I have seen some mentions of the hellbat style (more so on reddit), but would definitely be interested in more detail. My only worry with mines is blowing up my own army and additional micro introduced with them.
TvP There are 3 opening that I've been using 1. Reactor Rax expand followed up by Window mines 2. 1 Rax FE. This normally prompts some sort of Stargate based all in or extreme macro from the Protoss 3. 2 Rax Expand. This involves getting conc shells and pressuring the Protoss or just containing them if they got a Mcore.
On March 31 2013 10:51 Nexic wrote: Does anyone play a MMM + hellbat style in TvZ? Or would I be better off incorporating mines? I have seen some mentions of the hellbat style (more so on reddit), but would definitely be interested in more detail. My only worry with mines is blowing up my own army and additional micro introduced with them.
TvP There are 3 opening that I've been using 1. Reactor Rax expand followed up by Window mines 2. 1 Rax FE. This normally prompts some sort of Stargate based all in or extreme macro from the Protoss 3. 2 Rax Expand. This involves getting conc shells and pressuring the Protoss or just containing them if they got a Mcore.
2 RAX IS PLAYABLE NOW?! Are they proxied or no?
With modern protoss all going 2 stalker + MSC or stalker/zeal/MSC, and planetary nexus... I don't see 2 rax working at all vs P anymore.
On March 31 2013 10:51 Nexic wrote: Does anyone play a MMM + hellbat style in TvZ? Or would I be better off incorporating mines? I have seen some mentions of the hellbat style (more so on reddit), but would definitely be interested in more detail. My only worry with mines is blowing up my own army and additional micro introduced with them.
I currently play a MMM + hellbat + thor style in TvZ. The only time I get mines throughout the game is when i get 2-4 really on and use them for static defense or drops. Your main concern when using this composition is your bio portion of the army, mainly your marines. An easy way to do this is hide your marines behind your thor + hellbat + marauder army and make sure you aren't getting surrounded from behind by banes and zerglings. I personally don't like incorporating mines because they are very hit and miss.
I can add some builds that I use to transition into a MMM + hellbat + thor and what stuff is good to do + what zerg compositions are good against it.
On March 31 2013 11:23 stichtom wrote: Hi guys, i was a master terran in WOL but i haven't played HOTS yet and i haven't followed the scene much lately so i don't know how to open in all match-ups. Could you advise me?
Thank you so much
TvT There are 3-4 main openings that I've seen on ladder or currently use. 1. Reaper expand into bio or bio tank. 2. 1/1/1 expand Variation 1: Marine widow mine drop straight into Banshee or Macro. 3. 1/1/1 expand Variation 2: Marine Hellion drop followed by Banshee or Macro play. 4. 1 Rax FE This is very difficult to pull off and I normally only see it on people who haven't played much HotS yet.
General TvT: Alot of people have been going Hellbat Tank lately it seems like so just watch out for it.
TvP There are 3 opening that I've been using 1. Reactor Rax expand followed up by Window mines 2. 1 Rax FE. This normally prompts some sort of Stargate based all in or extreme macro from the Protoss 3. 2 Rax Expand. This involves getting conc shells and pressuring the Protoss or just containing them if they got a Mcore.
TvZ I've only been using 2 builds mainly. 1. 1 Rax FE. 2. Reaper Expand followed by Hellion Harrass into standard play
i want to add for TvT&TVP 1 fact siege expand with a bunker(safest build ever) with fast turret 2 2fact push and contain his natural(against fast exp only, actually i'm the only one that do this build :D)
On March 31 2013 16:02 artosismermaid wrote: im having trouble with blink + MSC all-ins on certain maps, how does i stop it
against protoss i found under suggestion , that 1 fact exp(start with mine then siege, or fast siege) it's the best build to be safe and expand vs toss
im literally raging right now, i keep losing to protoss who go storm. i am so bad at controlling ghosts plus army its not even funny. they are 1-1 upgrades and im already at 3-3 with like 4+ bases and i lose my whole 200/200 army because i can't control ghosts while they a move and storm everything.
help anyone? i need something to help with ghost control. plat player btw.
On March 31 2013 20:26 mokumoku wrote: im literally raging right now, i keep losing to protoss who go storm. i am so bad at controlling ghosts plus army its not even funny. they are 1-1 upgrades and im already at 3-3 with like 4+ bases and i lose my whole 200/200 army because i can't control ghosts while they a move and storm everything.
help anyone? i need something to help with ghost control. plat player btw.
when you can handle 2 ctrl grps, put ghosts into a medivac, scan where is temps are, boost your medivac around his vision, drop, emp and a-move!
On March 31 2013 20:26 mokumoku wrote: im literally raging right now, i keep losing to protoss who go storm. i am so bad at controlling ghosts plus army its not even funny. they are 1-1 upgrades and im already at 3-3 with like 4+ bases and i lose my whole 200/200 army because i can't control ghosts while they a move and storm everything.
help anyone? i need something to help with ghost control. plat player btw.
Do multipronged attacks after you have gotten your production up on 3 bases. Do a huge drop in his main to basically force him to move the majority of his army back home to defend, and attack his third at the same time. Either he sends his whole army to defend his main, thus you can freely kill off his third, or he doesn't react with enough units to his main so you can kill off a lot of his tech. If he splits up properly to defend both, at least you have two halves of your army vs two halves of his army, which is a lot better than just army vs army straight up.
EPT
So would be fun, but allmost impossible with rax/eng bays. U could use raventurret for the same purpose, to block exits and split attention of opposing army. Even building a couple of flying rax to wall his main/expo off to delay reinforments could help but it's not standard play. Against Z defensive placement of depots or other buildings helps against ultralisks-composition aswell.
