EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 33
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SuPerFlyTNT
United States145 Posts
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Coriolis
United States1152 Posts
On April 01 2013 14:09 A Wild Sosd wrote: Mines man. I use 2 to defend. One in the most likely oracle entrance and one in my mineral line. How are you guys dealing with Swarm Hosts? I've been struggling alot when the Z gets like 8-10 swarm hosts and I dont have tanks. He usually sits them just infront of a huge roach or muta ling army so I cant just run in scan and kill them. You get tanks. I've been finding more and more that mines are really, really good early game but you still need tanks for the later stages. So I typically just make mines out of one reactored factory until I take my third and then drop two tech lab factories for tanks after I take my third. | ||
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
On April 01 2013 14:22 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: Is there a good guide on going 3 CC opening and biomine against Zerg? The only really thorough build I've been able to find on a 3 CC build is this TvZ WoL mech build http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3OC_Hellion_Banshee_(vs._Zerg) which is a very good guide but outdated and goes for mech. On March 19 2013 08:59 Asha` wrote: Bogus (12) rax, (13) gas, Reaper, (20) CC, (21) fact reactor on rax, swap for hellions. tech lab on rax -> stim (36) cc Pressure with reapers and hellions Saw this is Asha's MLG post. Looks like a uild you might like  | ||
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SuPerFlyTNT
United States145 Posts
On April 01 2013 14:50 A Wild Sosd wrote: Saw this is Asha's MLG post. Looks like a uild you might like Thanks, thats a good place to start. I used to play Terran and more recently have been playing Zerg but I'm thinking about switching back - I'm liking the new styles available in HotS. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
A very typical game involves me worker scouting toss with 2 gas (2 workers on each), 2 pylons and having further scouting denied by a stalker. Then frequently a proxied oracle flys in, picks off a few marines and gets shooed away. The oracle/oracles back off regen energy and shields having killed units for free. Then I get busted at the front. Ive tried the build most pros use (3rd rax around 26 sup double gas 27). Ive also tried engi bay around 5 mins for a turret in each mineral line (or 1 in the main and marines in the natural) by 6ish mins. I feel like it leaves me super vulnerable to other all ins (ie robo gateway bust/void bust). The oracles have 4 places they can cause havoc, either mineral line, the front or hovering over my production. Ive even predicted it coming, scouted it while the first oracle was building and still lost despite that. I notice in marineking vs seed mlg vods (http://sc2casts.com/cast11989-MarineKing-vs-IMSeed-Best-of-5-MLG-Winter-2013-Exhibition-Round-of-16), MKP went cc first games 1 to 4 and seemed to always scout around 4.40. Does that influence transitions to the build depending on whether you suspect stargate and if so how so? Game 3 he was against stargate play and went double gas instead of a 3rd rax after cc rax rax though I cant work out why. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On April 01 2013 15:06 FirstGear wrote: I'm having a huge amount of trouble going cc first TvP against oracle rushes. If anyone has advice of holding a proxy oracle rush with cc first or high level vods/replays of it being held, it would be super helpful. A very typical game involves me worker scouting toss with 2 gas (2 workers on each), 2 pylons and having further scouting denied by a stalker. Then frequently a proxied oracle flys in, picks off a few marines and gets shooed away. The oracle/oracles back off regen energy and shields having killed units for free. Then I get busted at the front. Ive tried the build most pros use (3rd rax around 26 sup double gas 27). Ive also tried engi bay around 5 mins for a turret in each mineral line (or 1 in the main and marines in the natural) by 6ish mins. I feel like it leaves me super vulnerable to other all ins (ie robo gateway bust/void bust). The oracles have 4 places they can cause havoc, either mineral line, the front or hovering over my production. Ive even predicted it coming, scouted it while the first oracle was building and still lost despite that. I notice in marineking vs seed mlg vods (http://sc2casts.com/cast11989-MarineKing-vs-IMSeed-Best-of-5-MLG-Winter-2013-Exhibition-Round-of-16), MKP went cc first games 1 to 4 and seemed to always scout around 4.40. Does that influence transitions to the build depending on whether you suspect stargate and if so how so? Game 3 he was against stargate play and went double gas instead of a 3rd rax after cc rax rax though I cant work out why. Have you tried the build that goes: Depot CC Rax Rax Im pretty sure oracle all ins would counter in a very hard way any CC into Rax Gas opening. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On April 01 2013 16:11 vaderseven wrote: Have you tried the build that goes: Depot CC Rax Rax Im pretty sure oracle all ins would counter in a very hard way any CC into Rax Gas opening. I should've been clearer. I use that opening you listed every game. Its after that point I vary the build a little. With the build you listed I still die to oracles. I roughly go 10 depot 14 cc 15 rax (1st), 16 rax (2nd), (then constant marines) 19 double oc I usually follow up with: 25 depot 26 rax (3rd) 27 double refinery tech lab and stim Sometimes I follow up getting a faster engi bay, or by double gas without getting a 3rd rax instead. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On April 01 2013 16:57 FirstGear wrote: I should've been clearer. I use that opening you listed every game. Its after that point I vary the build a little. With the build you listed I still die to oracles. I roughly go 10 depot 14 cc 15 rax (1st), 16 rax (2nd), (then constant marines) 19 double oc I usually follow up with: 25 depot 26 rax (3rd) 27 double refinery tech lab and stim Sometimes I follow up getting a faster engi bay, or by double gas without getting a 3rd rax instead. Well with scouting, you should be able to discern in Oracle is a possibility. Does he have a second gas? Does he have a second and, hopefully, a third pylon? The fastest proxy oracle can arrive around 6:30, so that's the time you need to be prepared for. If you scouted an expansion by 5:30, you should basically have nothing to worry about at the front, so a simple bunker should suffice which allows you to leave most of your rins in the main. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On April 01 2013 14:09 A Wild Sosd wrote: Mines man. I use 2 to defend. One in the most likely oracle entrance and one in my mineral line. How are you guys dealing with Swarm Hosts? I've been struggling alot when the Z gets like 8-10 swarm hosts and I dont have tanks. He usually sits them just infront of a huge roach or muta ling army so I cant just run in scan and kill them. Bio/mine/hellbat players posture/drop aggressively and intelligently to keep map control. Without map control a z is being really suicidal moving swarmhosts without army support; if they do that they are really weak to drops so you can slowly pick them apart. But if you don't have map control and just sit back it's quite easy for them to get in front of your base like that. I have no experience with using tanks tvz in hots so no idea about marine tank. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On April 01 2013 17:06 vBr wrote: Well with scouting, you should be able to discern in Oracle is a possibility. Does he have a second gas? Does he have a second and, hopefully, a third pylon? The fastest proxy oracle can arrive around 6:30, so that's the time you need to be prepared for. If you scouted an expansion by 5:30, you should basically have nothing to worry about at the front, so a simple bunker should suffice which allows you to leave most of your rins in the main. I just played a game as protoss and had a proxied oracle in the terran base by about 5.52. Build had no worker cuts and stalker+warpgate gas spent before stargate. It was roughly 9 pylon 13 gate 15 assim 15 assim (2 workers on each gas when stalker completed increase to 3 on each) 16 pylon 17 cy core warpgate+stalker (chrono) proxy pylon stargate oracle. I have trouble when I scout 2 gas with 2 workers on each, 2 pylons and get pushed out by a stalker at about 4.20. I know when its likely I just don't know how to respond to it well. When the fastest oracle hits I have 8 marines, an oracle can kill 5. I leave one in a bunker and normally defend the main with the clump. When I do that my expo gets hit. I can't seem to defend both the expansion and the main at that point yet. Is it worth getting a very early engi and blind turrets given I have an eco advantage from cc first? | ||
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NapkinBox
United States314 Posts
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On April 01 2013 17:06 vBr wrote: The fastest proxy oracle can arrive around 6:30, so that's the time you need to be prepared for. If you scouted an expansion by 5:30, you should basically have nothing to worry about at the front, so a simple bunker should suffice which allows you to leave most of your rins in the main. Just to confirm high level games do have oracles faster than this. I have troubles cc firsting against a build like Whitera does here - (http://sc2casts.com/cast12020-WhiteRa-vs-Niroxs-1-Game-Starcraft-Ladder-Battle.net-VOD) especially with a proxied stargate instead. An oracle got to the enemies main at 6.15 and wasnt even proxied. On April 01 2013 19:37 NAPoleonSC wrote: What's a good opening that transitions into Mech fairly easily and safely, in all match-ups? I do DeMuslim's Reaper FE. I have little problem in TvZ, but in TvP and TvT I just can't do anything when I get harassed. I have no anti-air against Oracle and Mothership Core (the low marine count easily gets killed) and I just lose to Reapers. It's a lot harder playing one safe build for all match ups since the timings are so different especially if its with a less popular style (mech). I don't know a safe opener for all match ups, but I'd suspect a reaper expand is your best bet. HTOMario has a good TVP mech guide here - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398500. | ||
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eMGmoG
Switzerland244 Posts
On April 01 2013 14:22 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: Is there a good guide on going 3 CC opening and biomine against Zerg? The only really thorough build I've been able to find on a 3 CC build is this TvZ WoL mech build http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3OC_Hellion_Banshee_(vs._Zerg) which is a very good guide but outdated and goes for mech. I found this build to be awesome vs Z. It gives you map control and scouting, you can defend allins pretty good with it (make mines instead of hellions if you scout any 2 base allin). If Z plays greedy, you can punish him with runbys, if he plays to defensive, your eco will skyrocket you into a stomping win. Take 1-2 scvs with your hellion/reaper army in the early game. then you can poke and heal/repair. If you dont have the apm to do that, just camp watchtowers and his 3rd so you know whats coming. Reaper Expand with Hellions into Bio Widow Mine(Innovation Vs Leenock) - 12 Rax - 12 Gas - Reaper(x2) - CC after 2nd Reaper - Factory - Reactor on Rax - 3rd CC - Hellion(x6) - Techlab on Rax - Start Stim ASAP - 2nd Gas when Stim starts - Use Factory to make another 2 Reactors - Double Rax - Double E-Bay - Starport - Double Gas After Starport Start | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 01 2013 20:09 eMGmoG wrote: I found this build to be awesome vs Z. It gives you map control and scouting, you can defend allins pretty good with it (make mines instead of hellions if you scout any 2 base allin). If Z plays greedy, you can punish him with runbys, if he plays to defensive, your eco will skyrocket you into a stomping win. Take 1-2 scvs with your hellion/reaper army in the early game. then you can poke and heal/repair. If you dont have the apm to do that, just camp watchtowers and his 3rd so you know whats coming. Reaper Expand with Hellions into Bio Widow Mine(Innovation Vs Leenock) - 12 Rax - 12 Gas - Reaper(x2) - CC after 2nd Reaper - Factory - Reactor on Rax - 3rd CC - Hellion(x6) - Techlab on Rax - Start Stim ASAP - 2nd Gas when Stim starts - Use Factory to make another 2 Reactors - Double Rax - Double E-Bay - Starport - Double Gas After Starport Start Demuslim has a slick biomine build aswell. Looks alot like it, but the factory doesnt build both reactors and gets more gas early on. His gas/mineral-timings are perfect till 3/4th base (so thats about 15min. ingame). It's amazing to watch just how well gas/mineral income and spending is balanced in his build (and play). | ||
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SuPerFlyTNT
United States145 Posts
On April 01 2013 22:41 govie wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 01 2013 20:09 eMGmoG wrote: I found this build to be awesome vs Z. It gives you map control and scouting, you can defend allins pretty good with it (make mines instead of hellions if you scout any 2 base allin). If Z plays greedy, you can punish him with runbys, if he plays to defensive, your eco will skyrocket you into a stomping win. Take 1-2 scvs with your hellion/reaper army in the early game. then you can poke and heal/repair. If you dont have the apm to do that, just camp watchtowers and his 3rd so you know whats coming. Reaper Expand with Hellions into Bio Widow Mine(Innovation Vs Leenock) - 12 Rax - 12 Gas - Reaper(x2) - CC after 2nd Reaper - Factory - Reactor on Rax - 3rd CC - Hellion(x6) - Techlab on Rax - Start Stim ASAP - 2nd Gas when Stim starts - Use Factory to make another 2 Reactors - Double Rax - Double E-Bay - Starport - Double Gas After Starport Start Demuslim has a slick biomine build aswell. Looks alot like it, but the factory doesnt build both reactors and gets more gas early on. His gas/mineral-timings are perfect till 3/4th base (so thats about 15min. ingame). It's amazing to watch just how well gas/mineral income and spending is balanced in his build (and play). Is it documented anywhere? | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
Ill try to find it this evening, but u could also check his stream today, as he plays it most of the time against zerg. (im interested in his build too). | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
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AlbertHR
Indonesia65 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 01 2013 23:47 Baum wrote: I'm at a loss how a safe build in TvP should look like because Protoss has 4 different tech all ins which are very hard to scout and all require a vastly different response and end the game outright if not accounted for. I feel like the common reactor expand is not at all equipped to deal with all of them efficiently. Reactor FE should be able to handle almost all of them, but your scouting needs to be very very effective. If it's an Oracle play, simple Widow Mine/Turret usage will shut it down. If you see a Stargate you can 9/10 times see the outline of the unit building, so just scout it and prep accordingly. If it is double gas and NOT Oracle, DTs are taken care of easily with Turrets. The Voidray all-in requires two things: 1 Tank to shell the Gateway units, and a Turret to supplement your Bunker. See Thorzain/Socke game 3 from the MLG Winter Season Showdowns (find it on YouTube). Lastly, a Blink all-in (because frankly, the response to Immortal all-ins is BUNKERS BUNKERS BUNKERS and hasn't changed since WoL - although Widow Mines are a nice complement) again needs the Factory response. 1 Tank in the main plus sufficient Marines that are pulled back before he blinks in will hold off the first wave, and then you just get 2 more Tanks, layer them, and he's done. By the time you push with Medivacs and lots of Marine/Tank, there just won't be enough for him to hold. The key part is not defending, it's scouting it in time to actually initiate the correct response. If I scout the Blink research 20 seconds before it finishes and I only start my Tech Lab and Bunkers in the main then, I probably won't have the placement and units available before he hits. If I scout Blink when it's half done, different story. Ditto Stargate play... if you scout Oracles when they arrive at your base, you're too late to respond, whereas seeing the Stargate building the first one gives you lots of time to prepare. In actuality, Tanks are a great all-in defense, the only exception being Oracles. If it's not Oracles, you can do a lot worse than just build 1-2 Tanks and Bunkers/Turrets. | ||
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