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Ok guys here is another sad blink stalker opener (somehow not an all-in) story.. Here is the short version
1. one base blink vs reaper expo into 3 rax: 2TL 1R
2. Concusive shells two bunkers pull to high ground
3. kill a bunch of stalkers (7!) loose almost nothing but 4 scvs of mining time on bunkers and a 4 rines
4. go for the bop, but met by storm...
5. toss takes 3rd faster than me with pure storm and zelots against all my poking and storm dodging efforts (I'm no maru)
6. toss gets colo.. you know the rest...
So question time: What is the best response to blink openers? (not the all-in type as I feel that is kinda of straight forward) and their transitions?
a) against storm zelot
b) against stalker colosis
all with reasonably fast thirds from toss.
What are the keys to success in the transition? fast third for terran? 5 rax gogo all-in? scv pull? prepare for a long macro game against toss?
Why can't I be ahead or just win after holding a off one base play?
T.T
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On November 12 2013 13:52 Doc Brawler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 08:05 mau5mat wrote:On November 12 2013 07:33 Fhiz wrote:
so i read the last few pages on TvZ but what I am wondering is do you think these changes are severe enough for us to begin skipping the hellions and trying to get more tanks out early game? Similar to marine tank in tvt? Hellions are pretty much mandatory early in TvZ, you would only opt for early tanks if you need to hold roach/bane based all ins. Bomber doesn't seem to think hellions are mandatory :p. He showed you can skip them all together and play incredibly greedy with three tanks for defense. Then just abuse the shit out of mules and marines.
Indeed, Bomber has been doing 3 cc without hellions or just 2 since wol. If Bomber one of the best terrans plays like that it means hellions aren't mandatory for our lvl, assuming somewhere in masters.
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Have you guys played some games against P on alterzim stronghold yet? Holy shit is warp gate out of control on that map. ALmost every game ive been on the verge of breaking the protoss with multi drops etc but reinforcing your army just takes to long so eventually protoss will get both his splash up and 3 bases. Once he moves out and gets a pylon and on your part of the map its over.
My conclusion is that the gameplan for this map must be to NEVER let the tos walk over to you. Doom drops is the only way and sometimes it works very well to take your first 4 medivacs and doom drop his safe natural and bounce out to third if he is beeing greedy.
How do you play this map vs P?
Im gonna try to not veto this map because I really need to practice my late game play vs P even though it feels like its impossible to win a max vs max engagement.
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On November 12 2013 04:28 Doc Brawler wrote:Yea I'm used to the negativity on TL but a lot of the good players help with good reasons why its good or bad. Also Korean do do it (sort of). Maru added one thor against Jaedong this weekend for example and I was just wondering if going a bit further to maybe 4-6 isn't just a waste of supply. http://sc2hl.com/highlight/1108
I think if you go for 4 or 6 it gets to the point where they just dont use mutas in fights and since you have so few marines ling/bling will just tear you apart.
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Why is it that pro terrans EITHER go dedicated ghost-viking in TvP OR refuse to make any ghosts in favor of a quicker more agressive bio timing? Why not just make a few ghosts (2-3)? The ghost academy itself is really cheap, and only making a few ghost wouldn't really change the agressiveness potential of pure bio/viking. You could still hit the same 3base "bio" timing, but with EMPS and snipes this time. Maybe the timing would be 15 seconds later than not going ghosts.
In fact, what can mass ghost do what 3 ghosts can't? The only advantage is that you have more room for error if you miss a few EMP's, or your ghosts get feedbacked. As for engagements though, I feel that having 3 ghosts and hitting a tiny bit later, is way better than having 0 ghosts but hitting a bit earlier.
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On November 12 2013 21:57 Crypdos wrote:
Why is it that pro terrans EITHER go dedicated ghost-viking in TvP OR refuse to make any ghosts in favor of a quicker more agressive bio timing? Why not just make a few ghosts (2-3)? The ghost academy itself is really cheap, and only making a few ghost wouldn't really change the agressiveness potential of pure bio/viking. You could still hit the same 3base "bio" timing, but with EMPS and snipes this time. Maybe the timing would be 15 seconds later than not going ghosts.
In fact, what can mass ghost do what 3 ghosts can't? The only advantage is that you have more room for error if you miss a few EMP's, or your ghosts get feedbacked. As for engagements though, I feel that having 3 ghosts and hitting a tiny bit later, is way better than having 0 ghosts but hitting a bit earlier.
It just doesn't work like that, it's either no or lots of ghosts. More mmm + storm dodging works better than less mmm and some ghosts. It's either mass ghost/viking lategame, MMM/MMMH into submission or MMMSCV.
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On November 12 2013 21:57 Crypdos wrote:
Why is it that pro terrans EITHER go dedicated ghost-viking in TvP OR refuse to make any ghosts in favor of a quicker more agressive bio timing? Why not just make a few ghosts (2-3)? The ghost academy itself is really cheap, and only making a few ghost wouldn't really change the agressiveness potential of pure bio/viking. You could still hit the same 3base "bio" timing, but with EMPS and snipes this time. Maybe the timing would be 15 seconds later than not going ghosts.
In fact, what can mass ghost do what 3 ghosts can't? The only advantage is that you have more room for error if you miss a few EMP's, or your ghosts get feedbacked. As for engagements though, I feel that having 3 ghosts and hitting a tiny bit later, is way better than having 0 ghosts but hitting a bit earlier.
Watch Dear dismantle Maru and Taeja and you may feel differently. 3 Ghosts is MUCH less valuable than an additional Medivac and 8 Marines able to split off and hit areas. 3 Ghosts is also not enough to guarantee your EMP/Snipes. Even assuming you sunk the 150 gas into Moebius Reactor, they come out with enough energy for exactly 1 EMP apiece. 3 EMPs will never save your bacon against a Templar-based army unless the Protoss is terribad with his Templar control and allows you to close with them. And if you're sniping, well, you still only get 9 Snipes... that's 4 Templar's worth of kills if you hit them all perfectly BEFORE he Storms you. And if you miss 1 or Overmind forbid 2 Storms? Well, you probably die to the Zealot wall. You need enough Ghosts that firing off a missed EMP doesn't totally finish your plans to engage. That number is probably at least 6 or 7 if not 10.
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Well, a few reasons.
The first is that protoss's in general are playing tech heavier builds, and terrans are opening faster medivacs (factory before +1 weapons) to compensate for this. Because of the necessity to do damage/pressure with medivac play you see more marauder/marine/medivac aggression. I think Maru goes heavier with it then other terrans simply because his micro and multitask are the best around and because he really likes pushing his opponents to such extremes.
If you want to go Ghosts then you need to cut marauders. If you cut marauders you can't attack. Protoss really know how to get templar/colossus/fully upgraded and maxed armies quickly and by moving into ghosts you're basically giving them map control, extra bases and basically letting them set up all they need to pick you apart.
The thing about a small ghost count is that ghosts are generally a counter to templars and 3 ghosts do not beat 4 templars in feedback/snipe wars.
The other benefit to a large ghost count is when you snipe observers and cloak 20 ghosts protoss has to disengage, which might mean you get to kill them.
Really though I think it's just a matter of when you think you're most favoured to win. I think gosu KR Terrans think they're most favoured during midgame medivac aggression so that's what they mostly do. Sure you can win during ghost viking turtle, but it's a lower % than if you just MMM them to death.
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On November 12 2013 18:53 Fjodorov wrote:
Have you guys played some games against P on alterzim stronghold yet? Holy shit is warp gate out of control on that map. ALmost every game ive been on the verge of breaking the protoss with multi drops etc but reinforcing your army just takes to long so eventually protoss will get both his splash up and 3 bases. Once he moves out and gets a pylon and on your part of the map its over.
My conclusion is that the gameplan for this map must be to NEVER let the tos walk over to you. Doom drops is the only way and sometimes it works very well to take your first 4 medivacs and doom drop his safe natural and bounce out to third if he is beeing greedy.
How do you play this map vs P?
Im gonna try to not veto this map because I really need to practice my late game play vs P even though it feels like its impossible to win a max vs max engagement.
I cry. Seriously. I don't really know how to make it work, doom drops kinda are okay but the distance is so long, counter attacks are just ugh. Warp ins are crazy and I had a few late late games where DT's just spread me super thin. I guess it's not too different than Whirlwind but I don't really know what to do on that map. Feels like a free 3 base.
Also what are you guys doing with tank/mine combo? I'm putting them on the same hotkey but if I get caught, I don't think I can siege up as fast.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
So what do you guys think of the patch? 4M still viable? Howa TvP? Tank buff a noticeable difference
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Mines do far less damage. Didn't notice until I watched reps and noticed many units not dying. Some of them my units, some of them zerg. In a way it's good for mines not to be so wildly destructive. Now if we could turn turrets into spore crawlers...
I'd wait and see if tanks catch on with Gosu KR terrans but I maintain skepticism. TvP they still seem really bad. TvT didn't turn into the full on mechfest I suspected it would be but perhaps in a month, mech is always slow to adapt.
I did like opening 3cc passive tank in tvz though, like what bomber does, but I don't like making more then about 5. If your playing full marine tank it's really easy for mutas to pick off tons of stray units. I was switching into bio mine but after watching reps (a friend showed me one of his where he decided not to micro his ling bane vs mines, and that it didn't fucking matter a bit. This is only one replay but it's not a good sigh) I'm thinking I might just try marine hellbat thor instead. Undecided.
This is all first impressions, give me a week or two of playing and watching gosu terrans and reevaluate.
Oh and oracles are fucking retarded, fuck off. No idea why that buff went through.
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On November 13 2013 01:18 GumBa wrote:
So what do you guys think of the patch? 4M still viable? Howa TvP? Tank buff a noticeable difference
I think 4M is still viable, but you need a few more mines. I've been doing a double reactor factory ever since the patch was announced so always have extra mines. My late game TvZ comp has 4 factories, 2 reactor'd, and 2 tech lab'd and that feels pretty good.
I don't know about TvP, I've been too paranoid about proxy oracles so I fall behind and my mid game sucks due to that. Tank buff doesn't really feel noticeable, but WM does.
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Played a TvZ with 4M, completly ripped through the guy as if it never have been nerfed, so I think it's still viable, at least at masters and below level.
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MMM hellbat thor. The new shittier no-micro necessary 4M replacement! 
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On November 13 2013 06:17 wag_ wrote:
Played a TvZ with 4M, completly ripped through the guy as if it never have been nerfed, so I think it's still viable, at least at masters and below level.
yeah, below masters it doesn't really matter that much. You can pretty much ignore the meta.
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I don't think mines are viable at high master level. Maybe a combination of mine/tank works, I saw a GM using that effectively but he outplayed his opponent regardless.
Bio tank is hard if your opponent abuses mutas correctly and it's really hard to pressure the zerg, you have to pick your timings very carefully, similar to WOL.
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On November 13 2013 17:15 Bulugulu wrote:
I don't think mines are viable at high master level. Maybe a combination of mine/tank works, I saw a GM using that effectively but he outplayed his opponent regardless.
Bio tank is hard if your opponent abuses mutas correctly and it's really hard to pressure the zerg, you have to pick your timings very carefully, similar to WOL.
Well, I'm at high masters MMR and I'm still using widow mines in TvZ. You'll notice that even if the mines doesn't do full damages, lings are so low on hp that marines still destroy them. Zergs who a-move will still loose their whole army to widow mines, but if the guy micro well, there are situation you're going to get pretty much fucked.
bio/mines/tanks is so hard to play, at least for me. I can't make it work properly, splitting widowmines, splitting tanks and splitting marines is too much, especially if you engage on creep, and when they get to that 30-35 mutalisks, you've lost, simple. Maybe burrowing the mines near the tanks to protect them from mutas can be good, but if it's zerglings attacking them, tanks are gonna get murdered by friendly fire.
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On November 13 2013 19:14 wag_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 17:15 Bulugulu wrote:
I don't think mines are viable at high master level. Maybe a combination of mine/tank works, I saw a GM using that effectively but he outplayed his opponent regardless.
Bio tank is hard if your opponent abuses mutas correctly and it's really hard to pressure the zerg, you have to pick your timings very carefully, similar to WOL.
Well, I'm at high masters MMR and I'm still using widow mines in TvZ. You'll notice that even if the mines doesn't do full damages, lings are so low on hp that marines still destroy them. Zergs who a-move will still loose their whole army to widow mines, but if the guy micro well, there are situation you're going to get pretty much fucked. bio/mines/tanks is so hard to play, at least for me. I can't make it work properly, splitting widowmines, splitting tanks and splitting marines is too much, especially if you engage on creep, and when they get to that 30-35 mutalisks, you've lost, simple. Maybe burrowing the mines near the tanks to protect them from mutas can be good, but if it's zerglings attacking them, tanks are gonna get murdered by friendly fire.
Take this with a grain of salt - but is it even worth it to go 3CC anymore? The big kicker of 3CC builds was that slight poke at 11:30 with a couple of Mines and some bio, with the heavy hammer follow-up at 14:00 with 2/2, lots of Mines. Seems that with the reduction in Mine splash, those attacks are not as potent. I've been opening every TvZ with Polt's Reaper FE for map control and trying to mess with the Zerg's ability to drone freely, and it seems to work out way better for me than just letting him sit there while we both get 3 bases and then he gets a silly amount of Mutas.
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On November 13 2013 23:24 Jazzman88 wrote:
Take this with a grain of salt - but is it even worth it to go 3CC anymore? The big kicker of 3CC builds was that slight poke at 11:30 with a couple of Mines and some bio, with the heavy hammer follow-up at 14:00 with 2/2, lots of Mines. Seems that with the reduction in Mine splash, those attacks are not as potent. I've been opening every TvZ with Polt's Reaper FE for map control and trying to mess with the Zerg's ability to drone freely, and it seems to work out way better for me than just letting him sit there while we both get 3 bases and then he gets a silly amount of Mutas.
The 11 minute push isn't a "push", it's more like a move out to clean creep and when the zerg decide to engage, you get in your medivacs and boost away (you can eventually punish him if he went for something too greedy, or if you think you'll get decent wm shots (not anymore :p)). The 2-2 push is still as powerfull as before but it rely more on army control than it did beforepatch.
Personnaly I don't 3CC everygame since 1 week or 2, I go CC First into banshees or CC First into 3rax 9min push, it's so uncommon on ladder (they're often used in pro games, especially by Acer's Terrans) that I often do damages, getting 15 drone kills with 2 banshees isn't even surprising when doing this.
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EPT
