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I'd give it a few weeks to see how TvZ develops before figuring out where to go.
I've dabbled with tanks but they're a bit unexciting. Mines are really tepid too. Thors don't seem like much help vs mutas (mostly a product of their shitty AI and animations. Mostly they just ignore the mutas and keep trying to shoot lings/banes which is unhelpful. Plus they have long start up times before they actually shoot mutas. Before they get a second volley off they are dead. Fucking horrible unit jesus christ). Not sure about bio hellbat or w/e but basically vs ling bane muta you need something that beats banelings or they'll kill all your marines and that's not great.
Bit lost in TvZ atm. Not sure what the future holds for us.
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On November 14 2013 03:04 iaguz wrote:
I'd give it a few weeks to see how TvZ develops before figuring out where to go.
I've dabbled with tanks but they're a bit unexciting. Mines are really tepid too. Thors don't seem like much help vs mutas (mostly a product of their shitty AI and animations. Mostly they just ignore the mutas and keep trying to shoot lings/banes which is unhelpful. Plus they have long start up times before they actually shoot mutas. Before they get a second volley off they are dead. Fucking horrible unit jesus christ). Not sure about bio hellbat or w/e but basically vs ling bane muta you need something that beats banelings or they'll kill all your marines and that's not great.
Bit lost in TvZ atm. Not sure what the future holds for us.
Mvp's game vs jeadong really impressed me if he hadn't lost his third by placing some mines and turrets he probably would've won. Hellbatmmm straight up vaporized ling bling. I think it's worth looking into despite Mvp's godly control.
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Anyone else having even more problems TvP? I been losing to protoss all night cause of one base stargate all ins :s
How are you guys opening TvP after patch?
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On November 14 2013 03:04 iaguz wrote:
I'd give it a few weeks to see how TvZ develops before figuring out where to go.
I've dabbled with tanks but they're a bit unexciting. Mines are really tepid too. Thors don't seem like much help vs mutas (mostly a product of their shitty AI and animations. Mostly they just ignore the mutas and keep trying to shoot lings/banes which is unhelpful. Plus they have long start up times before they actually shoot mutas. Before they get a second volley off they are dead. Fucking horrible unit jesus christ). Not sure about bio hellbat or w/e but basically vs ling bane muta you need something that beats banelings or they'll kill all your marines and that's not great.
Bit lost in TvZ atm. Not sure what the future holds for us.
Turtle Raven Mech if you really wanna win and don't care about having fun.
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On November 14 2013 04:45 Santi wrote:
Anyone else having even more problems TvP? I been losing to protoss all night cause of one base stargate all ins :s
How are you guys opening TvP after patch?
Same here. I'm a bit lost at the moment. I always open 15 Gas into Widow Mine Drop, which is absolute garbage because widow mines can't kill more than one probe after the patch.
I still want to have widow mines against oracles. I always run into 1 base where they proxy some tech building and ultimately die to 3 gate immortal/oracle/blink.
I think I have to go back opening with reaper FE. Help would be appreciated!
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I've been going back to the Good Ol' 1 Rax Gasless FE
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TvP I've been cutting gas after reaper and reactor and getting 3 rax immediatley, or no gas altogether and 1 rax FE into 3 rax. I feel like I need defense against possible stalker/zelot/msc rush AND 6 rines incase proxy or in-base oracle AND need to fast expo because toss can expand after gate way, or after msc push, really limit opening options  ... you guys got any good openers?
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On November 14 2013 06:05 Doc Brawler wrote:TvP I've been cutting gas after reaper and reactor and getting 3 rax immediatley, or no gas altogether and 1 rax FE into 3 rax. I feel like I need defense against possible stalker/zelot/msc rush AND 6 rines incase proxy or in-base oracle AND need to fast expo because toss can expand after gate way, or after msc push, really limit opening options ... you guys got any good openers?
CC-first if you're feeling ballsy - proxy Stargate harass is still a problem but you usually can have the correct Marine count unless it's proxy with the second pylon on the map. CC-first actually performs better than 1-rax FE versus Blink and Robo allins, holds 4-gate easily (except 4-gate Prism), and has similar performance to Reaper FEs versus 4-gate Prism and Stargate allins.
Danger spots are 10-gate into Zealot Stalker MSC Stalker super chrono'd, proxy 2-gate inbase, and 3-gate Voidray allins, but can be held with correct scouting and play (just be DAMN sure of your scouting, the build relies almost entirely on the success of that facet of your game).
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Thanks Jazzman, I actually opened cc first for months, but stopped because it seemed like every game was a cheese loss or cheese hold win. Proxy 2-gate in base is like what 11-11 was for terran before msc... Now i feel squirtles pain. Not really tho.
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So I am completely lost in TvT I have no idea for the timings at all, what an efficient opening is, how to transition into marine tank, how many factories i want by the late game, when a good time to transition into battle cruisers is, I see Xenocider goes for a 15 gas but if you do that when can you start freely making tanks, I feel so gas and mineral starved if I go for any kind of early amount of tanks off a 15 gas when you get your factory straight as you can afford it. Can anyone give me a hand here? A build order or something, I have tried the hellion marine transition into marine tank but I really feel like that just gets shut down by a single tank. I always feel way behind in tech with the way im doing it because if i try and get out early tanks i feel like I have to delay my 2+3 raxx and i would watch a pro game except all of them seem to be opening cloak banshee and hellions and I really feel like I struggle to multi task things like that while macro-ing, for the time being. I feel like I know what im doing in terms of timings of both me and my opponent in TvP and TvZ but TvT has always been my worst maybe not statisically but i totally feel lost when going marine tank and most of the time when I win a TvT my low level opponent get bored and suicides his army into my tank line aha so it's hard to take anything that I did right from those games,,
Thanks
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Man I literally win all tvzs and tvts except I fuck up and lose almost every single tvp. Ladder is a nightmare, protosses always do differnt cheese. I open 12 rax 12 gas reaper into reactor, but what can I do vs 5:30 oracle in my base? I have 4 marines and 1 reaper at that time with 2 more marines on the way, the oracle can kill all 4 marines and then scvs, plus a second oracle is on the way. Additional rax wont finish in time and the factory is too late too to deal with it. Do I really need a 4:30 ebay and 2 turrets? At this time I dont even know for sure if its oracle. What if I make 2 turrets and then he comes with blink stalker? Tvp is seriously so unwinnable atm...
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I'm totally lost. I want to cry. More than three years of effort, of intense micro, of extreme focus. For nothing. I was master. I'm not even able to beat diamond players with this patch.
It just made the TvP even more one sided, and TvZ is totally fucked up with these widow mines. Basically, they don't kill pack of mutas, just one. They don't kill roaches, just one. They kill half the zergling than before. The game is much more forgiving for zerg now, but not for terran who can still lose on a single surround, a single second not watchin the main army and getting obliterated by banelings & ultralisks.
I can't even talk about the maps. We all know that the more greedy another race can be, the more we have to play against the clock if we want to win as terran. The maps are HUGE. We can't do anything before getting medivacs, whereas a baneling bust is still coming at the same timing because of the zergling speed.
The warp is stronger than ever on the latest maps too. You have to spread to take your expands and you can't reinforce a push because the map is too large. The result is that protoss have easy times pushing and we have to do wonders if we want to have a chance.
Protoss has their harass buffed - a lot. Like really. You can't hope to catch a oracle now, even with if the protoss has a terrible micro. It's much more forgiving than a banshee, but come earlier, is a lot more threatening, and has a purpose if the harass fails. And whereas their harass is buffed, you can't mine drop against protoss now : it doesn't work as before. The AOE was so much reduced than you can simply hope to kill one or two probes at the same time.
I'm absolutely devastated.
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Yeah man I've far as I can tell blizzard just took another dump on the lower level Terran players. Especially with the maps. They were already too big before and now they're huge
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I know this prolly isnt still viable at GM+pro levels but mech seems a lot stronger this patch. 2-2 timing pushes are pretty sick if you have good scouting and put the right air units in to hit Z or P hard. Espcially Z, they see me going mech so they build extra muta, but at 2-2 Thors gain a lot of ground vs Mutas, mutas would stil win, but now I throw 4 thors and maybe 5-6 vikings in and 2-2 vikings arent so bad when vs Muta, espcially since they focus the thors first, the vikings get a lot of free shots.
The tank buff is pretty good IMO. The real critical thing about tanks is that 2nd-3rd shot that seems to be the kill point in a lot of fights where if you kill enough units then the battle is in your favor.
There still needs to be a lot of changes for this to happen at pro level, but this feels like an actual REAL first step in buffing mech.
Any other mech T's feel the same?
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On November 14 2013 14:07 Aveng3r wrote:
Yeah man I've far as I can tell blizzard just took another dump on the lower level Terran players. Especially with the maps. They were already too big before and now they're huge
I feel like in late WoL turtle marine tank until 2/2 was somewhat effective because some of the maps were actually good for tanks. Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Ohana, and more were all good tank maps. But now, we basically have Yeonsu, Belshir is okay i guess, but that's basically it. You can't make a solid tank push on barely any of them.
Not to mention on all these wide open maps its hell to play vs any kind of high-powered zealot archon.
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On November 14 2013 10:47 pimsc2 wrote:
I'm totally lost. I want to cry. More than three years of effort, of intense micro, of extreme focus. For nothing. I was master. I'm not even able to beat diamond players with this patch.
It just made the TvP even more one sided, and TvZ is totally fucked up with these widow mines. Basically, they don't kill pack of mutas, just one. They don't kill roaches, just one. They kill half the zergling than before. The game is much more forgiving for zerg now, but not for terran who can still lose on a single surround, a single second not watchin the main army and getting obliterated by banelings & ultralisks.
I can't even talk about the maps. We all know that the more greedy another race can be, the more we have to play against the clock if we want to win as terran. The maps are HUGE. We can't do anything before getting medivacs, whereas a baneling bust is still coming at the same timing because of the zergling speed.
The warp is stronger than ever on the latest maps too. You have to spread to take your expands and you can't reinforce a push because the map is too large. The result is that protoss have easy times pushing and we have to do wonders if we want to have a chance.
Protoss has their harass buffed - a lot. Like really. You can't hope to catch a oracle now, even with if the protoss has a terrible micro. It's much more forgiving than a banshee, but come earlier, is a lot more threatening, and has a purpose if the harass fails. And whereas their harass is buffed, you can't mine drop against protoss now : it doesn't work as before. The AOE was so much reduced than you can simply hope to kill one or two probes at the same time.
I'm absolutely devastated.
Time to go full mech and join the brotherhood. Not the most viable thing, but this patch has made it way better than it was. Youll feel good when you win with it.
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Just micro marauder medivac like maru or innovation and you'll be fine.
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On November 14 2013 15:19 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:07 Aveng3r wrote:
Yeah man I've far as I can tell blizzard just took another dump on the lower level Terran players. Especially with the maps. They were already too big before and now they're huge I feel like in late WoL turtle marine tank until 2/2 was somewhat effective because some of the maps were actually good for tanks. Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Ohana, and more were all good tank maps. But now, we basically have Yeonsu, Belshir is okay i guess, but that's basically it. You can't make a solid tank push on barely any of them. Not to mention on all these wide open maps its hell to play vs any kind of high-powered zealot archon.
Diam level here
IMO Yeonsu, is a great tank map. Ledges are a tanks best friend and you can leap frog from you own ledge (forward third) to the enemy's watch tower, or your own watch tower (back third) to enemy's forward third. There is very little of the map is far from a ledge or sight tower, which are both good for tanks. I personally only make three for rock solid defense and go hellbat bio into, hellbat thor bio. Obliterates any ling bling muta play, evenish with ultra once those mech armor ups catch up. My tvz win rate is rediculous right now.
Infrastructure: 5-8 rax 1sp 1 fac, untill maxed on three base. Then add CCs like crazy, prioritize factories before extra rax to get 2 thors and 4 hell bats, 5+ marauders per cycle, and fill the rest with rines.
Oh and if mutas are an issue, for example, zerg delayed mutas so they could hord gas and get 15 at once, then i get a second factory asap for one or two thors. Nothing feels better than watching 4 javalin missles hit a clump of mutas
TvP is really hard for me right now, but I've found limited success, (23 all the way to 30 winrate :/) by holding off either protos's oracles or blink stalkers using bomber's stlye: reaper into 3 rax (halt gas after reactor) and hit the one timing left for terran(ok im being dramatic): after stim, but delay medevacs for a big marauder heavy attack. With msc I can't get the nexus but I can target down gas units and probes. Then I go medevacs -> 5 rax, then expo and hope to god not to get rolled by 2 base push with storm or colo... I pump hellbats out of a reactor factoy in lieu of getting extra marines to deal with 2 armor zealots. The bio push really sets the tone of the whole game, if they go double ebay, you can win straight out, if they go gates instead you can fall behind. I hope this helps, and I desperately need some advise on how exactly to open and play this MU!
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I re watched the bomber vs SoS series and bomber was playing really weird. The stim and shields timing he did is only really good if you think the protoss is being too greedy behind his expansion. SoS certainly was and I think he was doing that against Polt in their series.
The other weird thing Bomber did was go super marine heavy. On akilon vs sos he opened cc first into 5 rax, 1 tech lab 4 reactor. You cannot do this against someone who is going colossus after expand but SoS is not that sort of player so it was ok. Basically I think bomber prepared specific strats for SoS but didn't execute them well enough in their actual series. You'll note in the 4th game that SoS stopped making oracles, possibly because he realised what bomber was doing. This is just speculation you'd have to ask either player but I think I'm right.
The stim timing is a weird way to play the mu but it's one way. You're advantaged against most aggressive protoss builds since the protoss is probably thinking you're going medivacs like we all fucking do but if the protoss doesnt' commit and quickly transitions out of it depending on his situation you're not really that ahead.
The stim timign is only viable if you open reaper since stim comes too slowly with other openers. the other advantage to opening reaper is being able to scout the protoss to see if he's being tech heavy enough to punish with a quick stim attack. Innovation loves doing this with his reaper expand play and anything innovation does is basically fucking brilliant.
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On November 14 2013 17:46 iaguz wrote:
I re watched the bomber vs SoS series and bomber was playing really weird. The stim and shields timing he did is only really good if you think the protoss is being too greedy behind his expansion. SoS certainly was and I think he was doing that against Polt in their series.
The other weird thing Bomber did was go super marine heavy. On akilon vs sos he opened cc first into 5 rax, 1 tech lab 4 reactor. You cannot do this against someone who is going colossus after expand but SoS is not that sort of player so it was ok. Basically I think bomber prepared specific strats for SoS but didn't execute them well enough in their actual series. You'll note in the 4th game that SoS stopped making oracles, possibly because he realised what bomber was doing. This is just speculation you'd have to ask either player but I think I'm right.
The stim timing is a weird way to play the mu but it's one way. You're advantaged against most aggressive protoss builds since the protoss is probably thinking you're going medivacs like we all fucking do but if the protoss doesnt' commit and quickly transitions out of it depending on his situation you're not really that ahead.
The stim timign is only viable if you open reaper since stim comes too slowly with other openers. the other advantage to opening reaper is being able to scout the protoss to see if he's being tech heavy enough to punish with a quick stim attack. Innovation loves doing this with his reaper expand play and anything innovation does is basically fucking brilliant.
Does anyone know how long korean terrans have been using the reaper expand, guys off gas to make faster raxes?
I feel it's the go-to build now since fast oracles and blink builds are super strong in the current mappool. I saw two variations;
Polt made just one rax with techlab and stim, going for faster tech, Bomber made one naked rax more.
Any thoughts which are better? Personally I'd rather play it safe on ladder and go with the Bomber variation.
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EPT
