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On November 08 2013 22:47 Pirfiktshon wrote: @eeChiama Well now my feelings are hurt
@Fhiz Once you get used to it its not that difficult it actually feels a little OP. Snipe Obs with Vikings + Snipe HTs With Cloak ghosts is really what the best thing you can do is . Yes the Ideal situation is that you have 1:1 Ghost vs HT. The most difficult thing in TvP is getting the Right Composition to fight his army as that is not always the easiest thing to do. When you start doing that the next hurdle is learning how to micro against his army and engage properly once you figure that out and keep up with Upgrades you'll start winning late game TvP Like crazy Easier said then done right? hahaha
I think im getting the hang of my vikings, my main problem is I just have a tendency to select my army, split and end up having a terrible engagement. Though once I did actually start including a good number of ghosts fights have been going a lot better, the polt medivac idea where 2 medivacs is more important than 2 vikings early game, has really helped and now i find myself often just winning at the 11 minute mark. And if that attack didn't go well I always have enough tech labs + resources if I go for a faster 3cc my ghosts and vikings tend to wreck their army around 2-3 minutes later even if my emps suck
On November 09 2013 01:56 Crypdos wrote: Whats the best way to use snipe nowadays? Shift-snipe doesn't work, because they will want to finish their amove command first. Holding the snipe button and clicking templars sometimes makes you lose selection of your ghosts, and selecting the templar instead. The latter method seems like the best, even though it has flaws.
But I'm really not informed about those new ways to bind hotkeys to 2 actions or something? Is this useful with snipe? How do I it?
so i was going marine tank in a TvT and my opponent bio mech and i was ahead in upgrades and bases for a long time except i felt like he was just overpowering me what could i have done? http://drop.sc/364751
After the finals, the first tvp I hit was a masters toss, who tried to cheese, the game stabilized with me being a tiny bit ahead, then the toss went charge archon, with a hidden base. Fucking dear... lol But seriously back in season one, when chargelot archon was in style, I remember hellbat marauder compositions were popular. Is that the best option or is marine heavy better?
When Blizzard made archons massive units to give more options in PvP, I bet they never envisioned how much stronger chargelot / archon then became against terran.
I dont see how archon's being massive has anything to do with TvP. And to the guy above yes marauder hellbat is good against this comp but you will need to get blue flame to be effective. You can go normal bio with more medivaca and ghosts aswell though and just drop him a lot, but you need to babysit those drops so you dont get feedback sniped.
On November 11 2013 03:30 Doc Brawler wrote: After the finals, the first tvp I hit was a masters toss, who tried to cheese, the game stabilized with me being a tiny bit ahead, then the toss went charge archon, with a hidden base. Fucking dear... lol But seriously back in season one, when chargelot archon was in style, I remember hellbat marauder compositions were popular. Is that the best option or is marine heavy better?
lol have you seen what happens when marines try to fight archons...
On November 11 2013 04:55 Dunmer wrote: I dont see how archon's being massive has anything to do with TvP. And to the guy above yes marauder hellbat is good against this comp but you will need to get blue flame to be effective. You can go normal bio with more medivaca and ghosts aswell though and just drop him a lot, but you need to babysit those drops so you dont get feedback sniped.
no more slowed by marauders what made them easy to pick off
On November 11 2013 04:55 Dunmer wrote: I dont see how archon's being massive has anything to do with TvP. And to the guy above yes marauder hellbat is good against this comp but you will need to get blue flame to be effective. You can go normal bio with more medivaca and ghosts aswell though and just drop him a lot, but you need to babysit those drops so you dont get feedback sniped.
no more slowed by marauders what made them easy to pick off
Ahh yes I had forgotten about that, thanks for clearing it up.
On November 11 2013 03:30 Doc Brawler wrote: After the finals, the first tvp I hit was a masters toss, who tried to cheese, the game stabilized with me being a tiny bit ahead, then the toss went charge archon, with a hidden base. Fucking dear... lol But seriously back in season one, when chargelot archon was in style, I remember hellbat marauder compositions were popular. Is that the best option or is marine heavy better?
Hellbat marauder was good because the hellbat wasn't nerfed yet.. If he's going chargelot archon without storm then mass marine is good, if he has storm then you risk you army dying in a nanosecond to storms so it's better to make more marauders in that case. And of course the eventual colossus switch will do strongly versus your marines. Bomber vs Sos on akilon wastes is a good example. Bomber made many more marines than usual in TvP but the eventual storm/colossus was impossible to engage with that composition.
Spoiler alert, if you haven't watched blizzcon semi-finals + Show Spoiler +
So what do you think of Bomber's 3rax semi-allin vs sOs? He made around 16-22 marines and 3 marauders with stim + combat shield and attacked at 9min to kill natural nexus despite nexus cannon. Do you think it was purely metagame build or studied case of sOs's greedy builds. It seemed to work two times out of three games, with one nexus kill and second one he killed whole puny army and some probes.
However, factory is delayed significantly, approximately a whole minute which opens weakness to for example a colossus allins with two base. If you fail the push and nexus survives, whether you still have your army or not, protoss has all the options to use against you. Protoss can go for counter push if you lose all units, wait for own timing attack or take 3rd base.
Was it map specific decision? He used it on Yoensu and Derelict and tried on Belshir, but went for 2rax tech in Akilon. I can just guess that he might have thought that in Akilon he can perform drop harass more safely than in other maps.
On November 12 2013 01:05 nukkuj wrote: Spoiler alert, if you haven't watched blizzcon semi-finals + Show Spoiler +
So what do you think of Bomber's 3rax semi-allin vs sOs? He made around 16-22 marines and 3 marauders with stim + combat shield and attacked at 9min to kill natural nexus despite nexus cannon. Do you think it was purely metagame build or studied case of sOs's greedy builds. It seemed to work two times out of three games, with one nexus kill and second one he killed whole puny army and some probes.
However, factory is delayed significantly, approximately a whole minute which opens weakness to for example a colossus allins with two base. If you fail the push and nexus survives, whether you still have your army or not, protoss has all the options to use against you. Protoss can go for counter push if you lose all units, wait for own timing attack or take 3rd base.
Was it map specific decision? He used it on Yoensu and Derelict and tried on Belshir, but went for 2rax tech in Akilon. I can just guess that he might have thought that in Akilon he can perform drop harass more safely than in other maps.
Bomber has been mixing this build in since the season 2 finals. Basically it's a nice meta-build to punish protoss that are being too greedy behind their nexus cannon. The counter push by protoss isn't that scary cause you have 3 rax with addons already. It's a good build to mix in every once in a while but quite easy for the toss to prepare for if he knows it's coming. It needs to do good damage, but not necessarily kill the nexus. Attacking the nexus is a reaction to protoss refusing to engage and using nexus cannon basically threatening to wear your army down unless you back off. Often they'll also use a forcefield making it harder for them to engage you once they realize you're going for the nexus. If he engages off the bat you can snipe his sentries/MSC and go up his ramp or start targeting probes.
Tanks are pretty good already in TvZ to defending all-ins....... as for the buff making them a viable unit in the main composition its just not going to happen.... With muta speed at what it is we would see People get SLAUGTHERED and picked apart by sweeping muta to kill tanks once they get over 20...... So they would co-ordinate Zerglings and muta to put marine out of position and muta to kill tank at the very least slow down the push to the point where they can get any tech they want and Terran would subsequently be squelched in any attack they tried as initial push then be squished by Hive tech either BL + INfestor or Ultra + Infestor.....
I'm worried about TvT, I fear for mech to be completely dominant (I already have a hard time against it). Has anybody done some testing on the balance test map about this?
Btw Pirfiktshon I thank you too, I didn't catch your name cause we were on another page, I'm sorry!
On November 11 2013 03:30 Doc Brawler wrote: After the finals, the first tvp I hit was a masters toss, who tried to cheese, the game stabilized with me being a tiny bit ahead, then the toss went charge archon, with a hidden base. Fucking dear... lol But seriously back in season one, when chargelot archon was in style, I remember hellbat marauder compositions were popular. Is that the best option or is marine heavy better?
Hellbats/Marauders has lost much of its appeal now that Hellbats require BFH to deliver. The composition isn't impossible to play though, you can check for instance ForGG vs Naniwa, Bel'shir Vestige, IEM New York Qualifiers and HeroMarine vs Harstem, Bel'shir Vestige, WCS Europe Qualifiers for successful Hellbats/Marauders usage. Usually it relies on a heavy economic advantage into constant agression/trades because the composition is somewhat wasteful and gets slaughtered if Protoss can gather too many Archons (e. g. ForGG vs sOs, Bel'shir Vestige, WCS Finals Season 1).
Regardless of the Marine:Marauder ratio you choose, mass Medivacs and not falling behind too much in upgrades (e. g. 4 upgrades behind is a really bad situation) is the key against Zealots/Archons. Marines deal more damage but Marauders are sturdier, which makes micro mistakes against AoE less punishing.
You can also check Flash vs Avenge, Whirlwind, Code A RO24 if you downloaded the WCS replay pack.
On November 12 2013 01:05 nukkuj wrote: Spoiler alert, if you haven't watched blizzcon semi-finals + Show Spoiler +
So what do you think of Bomber's 3rax semi-allin vs sOs? He made around 16-22 marines and 3 marauders with stim + combat shield and attacked at 9min to kill natural nexus despite nexus cannon. Do you think it was purely metagame build or studied case of sOs's greedy builds. It seemed to work two times out of three games, with one nexus kill and second one he killed whole puny army and some probes.
However, factory is delayed significantly, approximately a whole minute which opens weakness to for example a colossus allins with two base. If you fail the push and nexus survives, whether you still have your army or not, protoss has all the options to use against you. Protoss can go for counter push if you lose all units, wait for own timing attack or take 3rd base.
Was it map specific decision? He used it on Yoensu and Derelict and tried on Belshir, but went for 2rax tech in Akilon. I can just guess that he might have thought that in Akilon he can perform drop harass more safely than in other maps.
Bomber was using those builds presumably because of sOs' pattern to get a Stargate, then "cheat" on units for a while to catch up in the Templar transition, leaving him vulnerable against mass units in said window; so yes he was metagaming sOs. Bomber had used this build against First in Bel'shir Vestige in the Season 2 Finals, but from memory it was a reaction to a scouted Council (= defence to 2-bases Blink), that he then used offensively upon realizing First had reactively changed his game plan. Never experienced it, but 3 rax stim can also probably be used against something like 5'40 dual forge (and overall builds that excessively delay their second and third gate). Outside of this, the build is really bad and should of course not be used as a standard. Think of it like a sniper build.
In TvZ you can use tanks with or without the buff as 3 tanks can really help you secure 3 bases more safely than say 6 hellions(see bomber vs soulkey and jaedong ect..). But eventually you need WM as replacement or supplement. It takes 9+ tanks before they start to hold their own against ultras(one shot), and after that they actually dominate the ground, but at the same time things like vipers, mutas, broodlord/infester make tank play difficult.
When bomber makes tanks at least, he always move out for a big attack with the tanks (and some WMs) and never remakes them as they are....not that helpful in the late game(they are trash). However, imo they are better against banelings and spines than WM (if target fired) and obviously not as good against lings and mutas.
Even in wol, If zerg got up hive tech, terran pretty much had to prioritize marauder over tank and drop like crazy, or go just mech...
On another note, I've been messing around on the unit tester, and against ultra, muta, ling/bling adding in only two thors significantly changed the out come every time. Even if you replace the supply from widow mines, or marauders, they helped out so much for some reason... Is it a good composition to mix in 4-6 thors, to a 4M army? eventually replacing all the marines out? What are the down sides?
On November 12 2013 03:43 Doc Brawler wrote: In TvZ you can use tanks with or without the buff as 3 tanks can really help you secure 3 bases more safely than say 6 hellions(see bomber vs soulkey and jaedong ect..). But eventually you need WM as replacement or supplement. It takes 9+ tanks before they start to hold their own against ultras(one shot), and after that they actually dominate the ground, but at the same time things like vipers, mutas, broodlord/infester make tank play difficult.
When bomber makes tanks at least, he always move out for a big attack with the tanks (and some WMs) and never remakes them as they are....not that helpful in the late game(they are trash). However, imo they are better against banelings and spines than WM (if target fired) and obviously not as good against lings and mutas.
Even in wol, If zerg got up hive tech, terran pretty much had to prioritize marauder over tank and drop like crazy, or go just mech...
On another note, I've been messing around on the unit tester, and against ultra, muta, ling/bling adding in only two thors significantly changed the out come every time. Even if you replace the supply from widow mines, or marauders, they helped out so much for some reason... Is it a good composition to mix in 4-6 thors, to a 4M army? eventually replacing all the marines out? What are the down sides?
it's troublesome so ask questions like that here. people usually dont take ideas like that seriously. you'll hear a lot of stuff about mobility and whatever, but afterall you might be onto something. who knows...
just try it yourself and see what you need to do to really make it work. sc2 is a strategy game. it's about making strategies, you know.
Yea I'm used to the negativity on TL but a lot of the good players help with good reasons why its good or bad. Also Korean do do it (sort of). Maru added one thor against Jaedong this weekend for example and I was just wondering if going a bit further to maybe 4-6 isn't just a waste of supply. http://sc2hl.com/highlight/1108
EPT
. Yes the Ideal situation is that you have 1:1 Ghost vs HT.
