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On November 06 2013 03:13 Doc Brawler wrote:
-If you want to scout this before the cc is ploped down on low ground, when should you leave on a two player map? It looks like it would have to be much sooner than when the rax finishes, which hurts an already very tight build resource wise.
14 scout is enough. It does weaken a bit the build but scouting only once the rax is complete will leave you vulnerable to quick gate agression. Your choice in the end.
-If its a 4 player map (like whirlwind, where dear did this again in the set) and you can not always confirm it is coming, what is the best practice if you still want to do this build? Is it just safer to blindly build cc on high ground? Or is solid micro just the best answer?
On Whirlwind, the extra distance adds further protection from gate 10, so you can build on low ground, then manage the best you can. Protoss has to sacrifice even more for the build since he has to Probe scout so he knows where to send his units.
Also, from replays it looks like a protoss can do all this with only being down only 2-4 probes from a normal expansion build, but their nexus is delayed a significant amount. Why not do this build more often? The reward feels much greater than the risk unless I'm missing something.
While it's very easy for Protoss to accidentally win some games with gate 10, the opening does end up behind against a good Terran defence, so that's probably why.
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Okay so basically what im wondering is around what time do you guys get your extra raxx? Like 4+ raxx's i mean.
I mean in my games I feel so sloppy with my rax timings because idk i think its because im not comfortable with the playstyle but i heard day9 say that around 10mins is good for rax 4,5 and ~13mins for 6,7,8 does this apply for marine tank too or at least is it similar? I mean i'm in gold so would it just make sense for me to throw down more raxx and maybe a cc when I see a mineral spike?
Also what is the optimal way to transition from a reactor hellion based opening into marine tank? Like in terms of (again extra raxx timing) as well as second factory and maybe a second armory? Does anyone know a game that i can watch ? Thanks
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On November 06 2013 07:23 Fhiz wrote:
Okay so basically what im wondering is around what time do you guys get your extra raxx? Like 4+ raxx's i mean.
I mean in my games I feel so sloppy with my rax timings because idk i think its because im not comfortable with the playstyle but i heard day9 say that around 10mins is good for rax 4,5 and ~13mins for 6,7,8 does this apply for marine tank too or at least is it similar? I mean i'm in gold so would it just make sense for me to throw down more raxx and maybe a cc when I see a mineral spike?
Also what is the optimal way to transition from a reactor hellion based opening into marine tank? Like in terms of (again extra raxx timing) as well as second factory and maybe a second armory? Does anyone know a game that i can watch ? Thanks
I generally thrown down more rax once i've started my next production cycle and I'm still floating money. It also depends on how many bases you are on. Personally I don't go above 4-5 rax on 2 bases and look to take a third instead.
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On November 06 2013 10:12 Brownic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 07:23 Fhiz wrote:
Okay so basically what im wondering is around what time do you guys get your extra raxx? Like 4+ raxx's i mean.
I mean in my games I feel so sloppy with my rax timings because idk i think its because im not comfortable with the playstyle but i heard day9 say that around 10mins is good for rax 4,5 and ~13mins for 6,7,8 does this apply for marine tank too or at least is it similar? I mean i'm in gold so would it just make sense for me to throw down more raxx and maybe a cc when I see a mineral spike?
Also what is the optimal way to transition from a reactor hellion based opening into marine tank? Like in terms of (again extra raxx timing) as well as second factory and maybe a second armory? Does anyone know a game that i can watch ? Thanks I generally thrown down more rax once i've started my next production cycle and I'm still floating money. It also depends on how many bases you are on. Personally I don't go above 4-5 rax on 2 bases and look to take a third instead.
It shouldn't be possible to produce on more than 5 rax with upgrades factory and starport on only two bases, so yeah. Take a third is usually the go to option. OR just continually trade with the enemy army.
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how do I scout the blink all-in?
I open with a reaper expand in the natural, I make a bunker and earlier a reactor on the first rax.
When should I scan him, either poke with the reaper?
I'm slowly getting a mental breakdown against blink stalkers. Gold league but a minute ago got paired with a diamond toss - blink all in as usual. Saw no expansion around the 6th minute so I made 2 additional bunkers. He blinked to my main and gg.
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Hello all. I need some ideas for how to come back from being behind in TvT. Sometimes the game doesn't go your way and around the 10 minute mark you know you're behind. I find that I can play TvZ and TvP from behind fairly well but against terran, unless the opponent makes a big mistake I just can't make any good moves.
Usually I try (uninspired though competant) drop attempts, but Terran players know better than anyone else how to shut these down. Move outs onto the map tend go badly if I'm behind on bio and tanks, so I tend to just play super defensive and try to dig in on three bases, relying on the defenders advantage to make up for my deficit. Most terrans know how to crack a nut like that though, and it mostly it just leaves me a slow death while the other T is on more bases and has me cornered in my base.
Some inspiration would be really appreciated.
For information, last time I played ranked I was Gold/plat. I've beat diamond players from time to time but mostly play unranked these days.
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Hey there, some TvT questions
How do you defend x2 rax with 13gas banshee? you abandon the build and go for x2 rax rines yourself? I just tried getting a bunker in mineral line but against good control they still get lots of kills. I stalled for the banshee and a hellion but I ended up way behind, even after killing 12~ scvs with the banshee the guy had gone for 2x cc and 3x rax with stim..
And about the banshee thing, I'm going 13gas thinking it is safer, but maybe gas first is the way to go? What are the tradeoffs? Auto lose vs proxy mara or 11/11 but I feel it would defend x2 rax reaper easier, any thoughts?
Cheers
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@Fhiz It depends on your build. Day9's examination was of Polts strategy and how he actually cut production from Medivac / Viking to get out those extra rax earlier than normal in TvP. The reality is though its all about what your strategy is and realizing that you can only support so much production with a certain amount of income. For instance on 2 bases fully saturated you can support 5 Rax + 1 Starport with Double medivac / VIking production and upgrades (Such as +1/+1) once you go to 3 base saturation than you can support 8 Rax + 2 Starport and Major Tech unit production...(I.E. Ghosts / Viking)
How you get there as in build order and timing attacks will determine your timings as to when you actually put those raxes down.
@Korsarz Scouting BLink stalker is about checking Natural at 5 minutes if you don't see expansion then its an all in and sometimes you have to sac your reaper to scout in base to see what they are doing. Though you should always scout with SCV @ about 2:45-3:00 and keep in mind as to where the pylons are placed so that you can scout easier with your reaper and also count how many pylons they have to make sure they don't have a proxy because if they do then you have to scout the map at key locations with your reaper. I'm sorry for your mental breakdown we all get to that point in the TvP Match up because of the variety of all-ins that are possible and its a huge guessing game that takes time to recognize the signs of which actual all-in is being done.
@eechiama 2 Rax Reaper is a hard counter to 13 Gas Banshee builds....In the games I've played people that held it off going banshee play with minimal losses they #1 never stopped marine production and when they saw the 2 rax reaper they pulled 3-4 Scvs off the line and used them in combination with marines to repel my reapers and stalled until they could get a hellion out which delayed their banshee which gives me time to prepare for banshees so to me banshee vs that opening is very hard to come out ahead. This is just been my experience Downfall should answer you with his experience on it. 
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On November 06 2013 23:36 Pirfiktshon wrote:
@Korsarz Scouting BLink stalker is about checking Natural at 5 minutes if you don't see expansion then its an all in and sometimes you have to sac your reaper to scout in base to see what they are doing. Though you should always scout with SCV @ about 2:45-3:00 and keep in mind as to where the pylons are placed so that you can scout easier with your reaper and also count how many pylons they have to make sure they don't have a proxy because if they do then you have to scout the map at key locations with your reaper. I'm sorry for your mental breakdown we all get to that point in the TvP Match up because of the variety of all-ins that are possible and its a huge guessing game that takes time to recognize the signs of which actual all-in is being done.
thanks. didn't know about remembering pylons' locations. might work with a later scan or reaper as you wrote.
stalkers is one problem but I almost defended that all-in. I lost because of the freakin' MSC with two time warps.
I pulled all my scvs from both main and natural and tried to encircle the guy but time warp is so ridiculous that it completely messed with one arm of the 'pliers'.
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Yea I don't understand why they made MSC with TW when they already had a mechanic similar called FF lol. TW synchronizes so well with any all in because it will either slow down marines and allow to kite or slow down scvs and allow to kill bunkers... Its a real pain in the arse lol To be honest if you are in a scenario that you need to pull all SCVS to just survive you most likely are in a lost situation anyways LOL
The key ingredient of defending any all in is Time. You have to scout so that you have enough time to react to minimize the damage done and if you don't scout it in time you have to BUY time effectively somehow so that you don't get extremely behind.
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Ok there are a few things about pdd that really bug me.
1) PDD can be fedback.
I feel like this is inconsistent with the rest of the game. PDD is classified as structure and a unit (i think) but it is the only structure that can get fedback. OC and nexus both have energy and cannot. Its classification as a unit feels a little inconsistent to me.
a) It comes from the raven which can also drop auto turret which is a structure. (if auto turrets had energy would they be able to get fedback)
b) It is affected by the auto sec upgrade, which only affects structures
c) It can not be moved or controlled although it can be selected. Unlike, temporary units which can be controled, and even interceptors which can be controlled via the carrier.
d) HT's feedback is an anti-spell caster spell, not a counter spell that is cast after the fact. With ALL other spell casters it must be hit the unit before that unit is able to spend its energy e.g. ghost's emp&snipe, viper's abduct&BC, medevac's heal, queen's transfuse, even msc. With the raven, it can feedback the raven before the pdd is cast, or just feedback the pdd after it is cast.
Obviously the decision to make feedback work on PDD is a balance issue. PDD is very good against stalkers, especially in conjunction with banshees, and unlike zerg and terran, toss doesn't have low tech options to kill or use up pdd quickly.
But there are many counter balance points,
-HT can feedback the raven which would prevent the spell from being cast.
The thing that bugs me the most is that I just found out that carrier's interceptors use up pdd incredibly fast. I always thought that it did not affect pdd, but I checked it yesterday on unit tester and was shocked. (Was this another carrier ninja patch or has it always been this way)
-Carrier's interceptors will use up a pdd instantly, because each interceptor fires twice per shot and there are 4, that fire rapidly. It is to the point where it would benefit terran if carriers didn't set off pdd, primarily to save the energy for tempest shots, which compliment carriers.
I wouldn't mind that HT feedback works on pdd IF carriers didn't use up pdd energy. Or if carriers used up pdd energy but HT could not feed back pdd.
In skybattle with toss, I would like Tempest, Carrier, HT to be a battle between, BCs ravens, vikings, and ghosts. Where the BC only get an edge through yamato, can get focused by tempest, which can get pdd by ravens, but the ravens can get stormed and feedback, but the HT can get sniped emped.
thoughts?
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On November 07 2013 03:50 Doc Brawler wrote:Ok there are a few things about pdd that really bug me. + Show Spoiler +
1) PDD can be fedback.
I feel like this is inconsistent with the rest of the game. PDD is classified as structure and a unit (i think) but it is the only structure that can get fedback. OC and nexus both have energy and cannot. Its classification as a unit feels a little inconsistent to me.
a) It comes from the raven which can also drop auto turret which is a structure. (if auto turrets had energy would they be able to get fedback)
b) It is affected by the auto sec upgrade, which only affects structures
c) It can not be moved or controlled although it can be selected. Unlike, temporary units which can be controled, and even interceptors which can be controlled via the carrier.
d) HT's feedback is an anti-spell caster spell, not a counter spell that is cast after the fact. With ALL other spell casters it must be hit the unit before that unit is able to spend its energy e.g. ghost's emp&snipe, viper's abduct&BC, medevac's heal, queen's transfuse, even msc. With the raven, it can feedback the raven before the pdd is cast, or just feedback the pdd after it is cast.
Obviously the decision to make feedback work on PDD is a balance issue. PDD is very good against stalkers, especially in conjunction with banshees, and unlike zerg and terran, toss doesn't have low tech options to kill or use up pdd quickly.
But there are many counter balance points,
-HT can feedback the raven which would prevent the spell from being cast.
The thing that bugs me the most is that I just found out that carrier's interceptors use up pdd incredibly fast. I always thought that it did not affect pdd, but I checked it yesterday on unit tester and was shocked. (Was this another carrier ninja patch or has it always been this way)
-Carrier's interceptors will use up a pdd instantly, because each interceptor fires twice per shot and there are 4, that fire rapidly. It is to the point where it would benefit terran if carriers didn't set off pdd, primarily to save the energy for tempest shots, which compliment carriers.
I wouldn't mind that HT feedback works on pdd IF carriers didn't use up pdd energy. Or if carriers used up pdd energy but HT could not feed back pdd.
In skybattle with toss, I would like Tempest, Carrier, HT to be a battle between, BCs ravens, vikings, and ghosts. Where the BC only get an edge through yamato, can get focused by tempest, which can get pdd by ravens, but the ravens can get stormed and feedback, but the HT can get sniped emped.
thoughts?
Um, I think this is the wrong thread for that. This is for help questions, and I can't find out what you're trying to ask here - if it's 'how to engage Protoss with SkyTerran', then you might consider wording it without what sounds a lot like balance complaints.
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^^ ur probably right. It is totally a qq post. my b
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On November 06 2013 23:06 Magpie842 wrote:
Hello all. I need some ideas for how to come back from being behind in TvT. Sometimes the game doesn't go your way and around the 10 minute mark you know you're behind. I find that I can play TvZ and TvP from behind fairly well but against terran, unless the opponent makes a big mistake I just can't make any good moves.
Usually I try (uninspired though competant) drop attempts, but Terran players know better than anyone else how to shut these down. Move outs onto the map tend go badly if I'm behind on bio and tanks, so I tend to just play super defensive and try to dig in on three bases, relying on the defenders advantage to make up for my deficit. Most terrans know how to crack a nut like that though, and it mostly it just leaves me a slow death while the other T is on more bases and has me cornered in my base.
Some inspiration would be really appreciated.
For information, I'm a mid-level player (gold/plat I'd guess but not been on ladder for half a year).
Most of the time you have not much choice other than assuming a defensive stance and wait for an opportunity to present itself. Comebacks will often rely on an opponent being too eager or, quite on the contrary, too timid to finish you. It can happen with one good engagement once you're max (so you're sure you're not outnumbered); see for example Bogus vs MMA, Star Station, Dreamhack Bucharest. If the game is frozen with entrenched Siege lines, you can also try a risky doomdrop as soon as your opponent loses vision of your army; e. g. Maru vs jjakji, Frost, OSL RO8. You can also watch Polt vs TaeJa, Akilon Wastes & Neo Planet S, WCS America Season 2, and the whole Polt vs Heart series from this season (WCS America RO8); Polt was behind at several points in the games, but played patiently and came back with good tactics.
On November 06 2013 23:16 eeChiama wrote:
Hey there, some TvT questions
How do you defend x2 rax with 13gas banshee? you abandon the build and go for x2 rax rines yourself? I just tried getting a bunker in mineral line but against good control they still get lots of kills. I stalled for the banshee and a hellion but I ended up way behind, even after killing 12~ scvs with the banshee the guy had gone for 2x cc and 3x rax with stim..
And about the banshee thing, I'm going 13gas thinking it is safer, but maybe gas first is the way to go? What are the tradeoffs? Auto lose vs proxy mara or 11/11 but I feel it would defend x2 rax reaper easier, any thoughts?
Cheers
Assuming you mean 2 rax Reapers, you need to have your Marines together with 1-3 SCVs(s) in front to absorb Reapers shots until you get your Hellion; then you have more leeway. Don't bother with a Bunker, you don't need it. A few SCVs and Marine micro should be enough.
Gas first gets the Banshee 20-25 seconds earlier. The only advantage with rax first is that the build is somewhat less obvious for your opponent's SCV scout. Gas first doesn't auto-lose proxy Marauder as you can get a Bunker in time with a SCV pull to stall until it's complete (see for instance Bogus vs Sting, Polar Night, ATC; Bogus could have started the Bunker way earlier had he sent a SCV scout, and would have sustained less damage). Getting a Mine is possible too. It doesn't auto-lose 11/11 either as the Bunker defence is possible, and you can have a Hellion out quite quickly to help. Old WoL game, but watch for example ForGG vs TheStC, Metropolis, Dreamhack Valencia 2012.
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On November 07 2013 02:17 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Yea I don't understand why they made MSC with TW when they already had a mechanic similar called FF lol. TW synchronizes so well with any all in because it will either slow down marines and allow to kite or slow down scvs and allow to kill bunkers... Its a real pain in the arse lol To be honest if you are in a scenario that you need to pull all SCVS to just survive you most likely are in a lost situation anyways LOL
Your comment about how pulling all scvs already indicates a loss isn't necessarily correct; think of a roach/bane allin where you can come back after losing a good 20 workers, or an allin in TvP where you drop to 20 workers but still have medivacs, stim, and upgrades vs gateway. Of course this assumes that you pull scvs at the right time, instead of too late when all is already lost.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37044 Posts
Had a really frustrating mech game the other day.
I went bio, he went mech. He just turtled up, grabbed 3 bases, then moved out with a 3-3 200/200 Tank/BF Hellion/Thor/Viking composition. I was like "WTF do I do...?"
I almost won the game because I went for a Vking/BC transition, but he went mass Vikings/Thors and beat me in the end. I know I made a mistake by not making any Ravens, but other than that, how else could I have won the game?
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On November 07 2013 13:03 Seeker wrote:
Had a really frustrating mech game the other day.
I went bio, he went mech. He just turtled up, grabbed 3 bases, then moved out with a 3-3 200/200 Tank/BF Hellion/Thor/Viking composition. I was like "WTF do I do...?"
I almost won the game because I went for a Vking/BC transition, but he went mass Vikings/Thors and beat me in the end. I know I made a mistake by not making any Ravens, but other than that, how else could I have won the game?
Difficult to say without a replay (which you absolutely should submit) but in general on easy turtle maps like akilon, as the bio player you NEED tanks to hold ground, or else what you describe can happen, as a maxed mech army moves out and defends with only a couple tanks at home. In those situations I tend to either go for mech myself, or go bio with double tank production and try to sieze or contend air control. Otherwise you just get run over.
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On November 07 2013 13:03 Seeker wrote:
Had a really frustrating mech game the other day.
I went bio, he went mech. He just turtled up, grabbed 3 bases, then moved out with a 3-3 200/200 Tank/BF Hellion/Thor/Viking composition. I was like "WTF do I do...?"
I almost won the game because I went for a Vking/BC transition, but he went mass Vikings/Thors and beat me in the end. I know I made a mistake by not making any Ravens, but other than that, how else could I have won the game?
First part is opening well and making it as hard as possible for him to get that 3rd up and running.
Second is getting a tank/marauder/marine army containing him. A thick wall of siege tanks is really hard for him to break through. Use a sensor tower or two to know when/how he's doing anything.
Third is gettings loads of extra bases and OC's behind all this and then eventually switching into air units, but this switch has to be very late in the game.
If he still refuses to fight make sure he cannot establish a 4th and just starve him out. Also look for opportunities to doom drop him.
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Hey I have two questions, thanks in advance.
1)When going for a cc first build what are some of the disadvantages pf building the cc on high ground? I mean if it is close to your mineral line it should take like around 5 or 6 seconds to land on the low ground. I mean I guess you lose mining time but on most maps I really don't see how the advantages of building on the low ground out weigh those of the high ground.
2) Vs protoss mid to late game when you have a good number of ghosts, I know you want to emp the enemy as well as the HT ofc but I see pros like demuslim getting off good snipes, what exactly is he sniping, if anything?
Again thanks everyone for being so helpful.
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On November 07 2013 23:30 Fhiz wrote:
Hey I have two questions, thanks in advance.
1)When going for a cc first build what are some of the disadvantages pf building the cc on high ground? I mean if it is close to your mineral line it should take like around 5 or 6 seconds to land on the low ground. I mean I guess you lose mining time but on most maps I really don't see how the advantages of building on the low ground out weigh those of the high ground.
2) Vs protoss mid to late game when you have a good number of ghosts, I know you want to emp the enemy as well as the HT ofc but I see pros like demuslim getting off good snipes, what exactly is he sniping, if anything?
Again thanks everyone for being so helpful.
To address question 1), I would need to know more about the matchup. CC-first plays completely differently in all three matchups for Terran. For example, if the Protoss 9 scouts you on a 2p map and you're going CC-first, it can often be safer to build on the high ground because your opponent has enough warning time to chrono out a Zealot/Stalker/MSC and cause you serious problems, possibly even canceling the CC if you went low ground and don't pull enough workers to defend. However, a 13 scout or later probably leaves you safe for the most part to build low ground. Versus Zerg, if you go low-ground CC-first you risk an automatic loss to 6-10 pools, but on 4p maps can often get away with it (in addition to the fact that high-ground CC is vulnerable to nat hatch blocks). Give us a more specific situation and the answer will be more detailed and helpful.
2) What Demuslim and other pro Terrans are doing is spamming the 'Snipe' key (Shift commands bug out with Snipe) on any Templar you can see. Ideally, you want the Ghosts cloaked in case he has no Obs or the Vikings got it, but the prime importance is to get rid of the Storms.
I'd like to delve further into this:
EMP is nice because it has an area of effect. If you see 4 Templar, you can get all the Storms in that clump if you hit it correctly. This is great for you because that could be as many as 8 Storms (enough to murder any Terran army). On the other hand, the Protoss should be instantly morphing Archons after that, and Archons are still very strong units. It would be best if your APM and mouse precision were high enough to simply Snipe them all super fast because then the Protoss player gets zero benefit from the Templar. Situations where Snipe may be too risky include: multiple Templar flanks where you can afford to simply watch like a hawk until they're in range, and need to either pre-empt them or force them back with generally-targeted EMPs. Target slightly in front of where they're headed and try to find all the angles before they close. Also, if the Templar are not spread behind the army but in the body of it, it can be difficult not to accidentally Snipe Zealots instead, so EMP will both take care of your Storm problem and soak some Zealot shields as a perk.
Snipe is your best tool when you have unobstructed view and are not in immediate danger of having to micromanage your entire army at once. EMP is better if you have limited time and cannot target quickly or accurately enough to otherwise manage your other bio.
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EPT
