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The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 187

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
October 21 2013 23:31 GMT
#3721
In TvP +2 attack +1 armor zealot archon seems to be the shit right now. How do I deal with it? If I just turtle and hope he will attack? Unless protoss does attack and makes bad trades I'm just not able to deal with it. They crono boost upgrades so fast, if I wait untill 2/2 is done, protoss will have at least 3/2 upgrades and more bases and a better army and map control and shit just escalates from there.
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
October 21 2013 23:51 GMT
#3722
On October 22 2013 08:31 Necosarius wrote:
In TvP +2 attack +1 armor zealot archon seems to be the shit right now. How do I deal with it? If I just turtle and hope he will attack? Unless protoss does attack and makes bad trades I'm just not able to deal with it. They crono boost upgrades so fast, if I wait untill 2/2 is done, protoss will have at least 3/2 upgrades and more bases and a better army and map control and shit just escalates from there.


are you making ghosts? EMP is amazing vs zealots and archons
make sure your army is marine heavy as marauders don't do anything against zealots except allow you to kite after they charge
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
KingofGods
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1218 Posts
October 21 2013 23:58 GMT
#3723
I find the biggest problem with zealot / archon is that you have to be so defensive behind a bunch of bunkers and a wall off that the protoss doesn't even have to commit and can still put up a 3rd. The moment you try to move out, archon / zealot wreck you in the open field.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
October 22 2013 00:23 GMT
#3724
On October 22 2013 08:31 Necosarius wrote:
In TvP +2 attack +1 armor zealot archon seems to be the shit right now. How do I deal with it? If I just turtle and hope he will attack? Unless protoss does attack and makes bad trades I'm just not able to deal with it. They crono boost upgrades so fast, if I wait untill 2/2 is done, protoss will have at least 3/2 upgrades and more bases and a better army and map control and shit just escalates from there.


double or quadruple medivac drop whilst he's halfway across the map, then clog up your natural with bunkers, factory and depot so he cannot force a basetrade. If you can fit in your 3rd OC before he hits you (which you should be able to) then you can get enough of an economy that you can mitigate his upgrade lead with tons of dudes and many drops everywhere.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
vaderseven
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2556 Posts
October 22 2013 03:08 GMT
#3725
On October 22 2013 04:46 TeeTS wrote:
How do you play TvZ these days? I used to play the innovation build, CC first into reactor hellions, wallin at natural then 3rd cc. But either I get totally outgreeded by a 3hatch b4 pool or I get baneling busted and even if I hold it with minimal loses, I´m even at best, oftentimes behind and then I have a hard time to put on enough pressure with bio mine before there are 20+mutas on the map. I´m getting really frustrated in the matchup, because I allways get outproduced in the early game and early midgame and then I fall behind massively.

Look in my signature or check out my new article that posted today on polt tvz.

In general, fast expand, something (greedy 3rd, more rax, fast port...), 4m, 3/3 timing then optional transition.
vaderseven
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2556 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-22 03:11:53
October 22 2013 03:11 GMT
#3726
On October 22 2013 08:58 KingofGods wrote:
I find the biggest problem with zealot / archon is that you have to be so defensive behind a bunch of bunkers and a wall off that the protoss doesn't even have to commit and can still put up a 3rd. The moment you try to move out, archon / zealot wreck you in the open field.


Zealot Archon is very cost effective if two factors are allowed. They like to fight in smaller numbers and they like large open attack paths. Try to keep them back with drops without losing men while turtleneck up a max army on 2 or 3 bases (map dependent). Then make sure you choose a fight where you have the better surface area.
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
October 22 2013 09:15 GMT
#3727
On October 21 2013 02:53 Doc Brawler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2013 23:02 llIH wrote:
On October 20 2013 05:26 Doc Brawler wrote:
On October 20 2013 04:52 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote:
Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).

Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?

The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.

Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?

And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?

Thanks!

Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.

As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.

1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.

As for the TvZ issues:
In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.


I agree proxy 10 gates can be held with 14cc as long as they are not too close to you, I use my CC scv to check for very close gates. If you scout them in your base, 2 rax to wall of your mineral line and you are all set. Some people like to use depot at ramp as a spotter but i prefer to put the first depot to plug any holes in my mineral patches just in case of proxy 2 gate. If they are a bit further back you should be fine holding at the top of your ramp, (assuming you scout their main).

When I go cc-first I have a kind of flow chart in my head of every possible protoss cheese that can (and WILL more likely than not) hit you. Between building placement, bunker timings(I go 2nd bunker by 7 min), and marine placement (first 2 in bunker, next 6 in main mineral line, rest of them on ramp/natural) you can hold, a lot of cheese.

Early game aggression tvp has declined because any good protos can hold off mine drops if they know your are going gas and outright kill you with stalkers if your go hellions. I think the early stim timings are the best bet. See hack vs crank and hack vs hero for some recent VODs of early aggression vs protoss. Also note, that they do not put you in a great spot economically which is why I prefer cc first. If you can land the same mine drops terrans were hitting months ago, its an easy win. But you are relying on protoss not scouting early or them forgetting how to defend mine drops.

I think 1-1-1 builds also might be the safest build against one base protos aggression because seige tank can pop out if you know protoss is one base.


I would love to see some replays of how you do that blocking of holes with depots and how you perform your 14cc build. Would you mind? I'm not questioning your skill, that's not why I ask. I like what you wrote. What league are you?
I am also a CC first player


I'm only a diam player atm. I was in masters for a while when hots first came out cause wasn't everyone :p I can make a video of the same build going up against different openings. I have a lot of games against proxy gates, stargates and other shenanigans. But it makes sense because if the game goes long my build gives me a huge edge.


How is it going? I am still waiting for some replays!
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
October 22 2013 14:50 GMT
#3728
What time should I expect a 4th base in TvZ? I'm having a bit of trouble holding off 3 base baneling/ling/roach or ling/bling/muta aggression when they delay their 4th base for a long time.
Kvassten
Profile Joined May 2012
Sweden159 Posts
October 22 2013 17:04 GMT
#3729
On October 22 2013 23:50 Chaggi wrote:
What time should I expect a 4th base in TvZ? I'm having a bit of trouble holding off 3 base baneling/ling/roach or ling/bling/muta aggression when they delay their 4th base for a long time.


The answer to this question is: It depends

The zerg will rarely take a 4th before you take your third. By taking your third I mean when you float it to the 3rd location or starts building it in the 3rd location (building inside your main doesn't mean that much).

3 base ling/bling/roach is usually an all in which you can scout by counting drones in his 3rd base. 3 base ling/bling/muta is rarely all in and the zerg should take a 4th shortly after he sees your 3rd.
zoidwolf
Profile Joined January 2012
South Africa24 Posts
October 22 2013 21:09 GMT
#3730
Hi guys, TvP question here!
I've recently come back to Starcraft 2 but I have no experience with HOTS, a predicament seemingly similar to many others. There's no need to come up with any in-depth answer to this, simple yeses or noes will suffice I understand that it may have been asked many times before (although I have searched) and therefore may be quite tiring <3
Is the Bomber Redbull Battlegrounds FE still viable in HOTS? I've had relative success with it at a silver/gold level but I don't want to integrate a build that isn't going to serve me very well as I try to rank up! Apparently Heart's Stim Timing is good, will that have better longevity?
Thanks for taking the time to read this!
EU - Zoid | 738
Marathi
Profile Joined July 2011
298 Posts
October 22 2013 22:06 GMT
#3731
Does anyone have a build order for a TvZ hellbat/marauder timing attack that is similar to the allin? Or just the allin build order and I can play around with a follow-up.

Also, there seems to be a couple of new TvP builds kicking around. At the minute I am playing Inno's safe bio build with the mine drop (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-innovations-safe-bio-build/). But I've noticed some people saying they play DeMusliMs Reaper FE (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-demuslims-reaper-fe/) and some people playing Hearts Stim Timing (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-hearts-stim-timing/).

I like the sound of Hearts build (early aggression that actually WORKS in TvP in HotS is unheard of!) it sounds a lot like the old 3rax allin back in WoL but with a reaper FE in front of it. Is it a tough build to execute or would it work quite well for someone in gold like myself? I ask as I really struggle (like a lot of people) with lategame TvP so it would be great to hit a different effective timing attack in this matchup!
eSports tees designed by me - http://tinyurl.com/bqmexd9
Willzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom774 Posts
October 22 2013 23:09 GMT
#3732
@zoidwolf

Ideally you shouldn't put all your faith in any one build, but that Bomber build will be viable at masters at least.
The important thing is that you learn for yourself the strengths and weaknesses of a build and adapt it to suit your preferred playstyle.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
October 23 2013 00:02 GMT
#3733
On October 23 2013 02:04 Kvassten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2013 23:50 Chaggi wrote:
What time should I expect a 4th base in TvZ? I'm having a bit of trouble holding off 3 base baneling/ling/roach or ling/bling/muta aggression when they delay their 4th base for a long time.


The answer to this question is: It depends

The zerg will rarely take a 4th before you take your third. By taking your third I mean when you float it to the 3rd location or starts building it in the 3rd location (building inside your main doesn't mean that much).

3 base ling/bling/roach is usually an all in which you can scout by counting drones in his 3rd base. 3 base ling/bling/muta is rarely all in and the zerg should take a 4th shortly after he sees your 3rd.


Zergs take their 4th in reaction to terran taking their 3rd, they have to stay a base ahead. Probably 11-12 minutes it'll go down. If you don't see it, make some bunkers in between natural and 3rd and just keep macroing in your base until the 4th goes down. You can move out with a dropship or two worth of units just to probe around the map and try and pick off errant units, boosting back to safety if a horde of zergs show up.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
klup
Profile Joined May 2013
France612 Posts
October 23 2013 07:03 GMT
#3734
Hi guys, I wanted to know what is the correct army composition to deal with ling bling ultralisk + mutas with mech. Thanks !
zheng
Profile Joined September 2010
United States23 Posts
October 23 2013 10:32 GMT
#3735
On October 23 2013 16:03 klup wrote:
Hi guys, I wanted to know what is the correct army composition to deal with ling bling ultralisk + mutas with mech. Thanks !


nothing, you straight up lose the fight if you have PURE mech vs almost any zerg compositions.

if assuming both of you guys kept up with each till the lategame usually terran needs raven transitions to deal with the ultra/broodlord switcheroo and have solid base managements.

if you went pure mech you need to kill them before hive tech once vipers hit you auto lose, or you lose vs roachs in hatchery tech
trying to get better
Brownic
Profile Joined June 2013
Australia69 Posts
October 23 2013 11:23 GMT
#3736
On October 23 2013 16:03 klup wrote:
Hi guys, I wanted to know what is the correct army composition to deal with ling bling ultralisk + mutas with mech. Thanks !


The only thing I could think of is to look at some of Flash's games vs zerg, he's been using mech a fair bit recently.
We make expand, then defense it.
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
October 23 2013 15:44 GMT
#3737
A bit of a dumb question but has anyone ever faced up against delayed WP but w/ like mass DT's? I've been playing a lot of Protosses lately (at least 5-6 in the last 2 days) that hide their DT shrine, but then when you move out, or right before you move out with medivacs, a ton of DT's are in your base and if you're not in position - you just lose a lot of stuff... I'm not too sure what to do in that situation
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
October 23 2013 15:50 GMT
#3738
On October 24 2013 00:44 Chaggi wrote:
A bit of a dumb question but has anyone ever faced up against delayed WP but w/ like mass DT's? I've been playing a lot of Protosses lately (at least 5-6 in the last 2 days) that hide their DT shrine, but then when you move out, or right before you move out with medivacs, a ton of DT's are in your base and if you're not in position - you just lose a lot of stuff... I'm not too sure what to do in that situation

A hidden DT tech still has tells. There's 250 gas missing from the main. You know something is wrong when you see there's not a lot of units as well as no tech.

Dark Templar are pretty bad in a fight, Marauders/Stim take all their DPS from them. You just have to detect them. I like to have 3 turrets when I move out; Main minerals, Natural minerals, Front. Also, you should have 1/2 scans saved for Observers.

This gives you ample protection against Dark Templar if you are paying attention. When you confirm DTs, it is advised to add another turret next to your Tech labs/ Reactors.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
October 23 2013 15:51 GMT
#3739
On October 23 2013 07:06 Marathi wrote:
Does anyone have a build order for a TvZ hellbat/marauder timing attack that is similar to the allin? Or just the allin build order and I can play around with a follow-up.

MVP used a lot of these in WCS Europe. Hellbat nerf happened, but they should still work with some slight adaptations.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Bulugulu
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel250 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-23 15:58:19
October 23 2013 15:55 GMT
#3740
On October 24 2013 00:44 Chaggi wrote:
A bit of a dumb question but has anyone ever faced up against delayed WP but w/ like mass DT's? I've been playing a lot of Protosses lately (at least 5-6 in the last 2 days) that hide their DT shrine, but then when you move out, or right before you move out with medivacs, a ton of DT's are in your base and if you're not in position - you just lose a lot of stuff... I'm not too sure what to do in that situation


It's a crappy situation obviously, the only real counter is to realize he is going DT drop/warp prism and have some kind of preparation at home while attacking. Then you rally into your main and send your army through boosted medivacs.
And making a viking at once to eliminate the warp prism of course. Otherwise you will be chasing him around for too long, while you need to be countering him as soon as possible.

+ Show Spoiler +

On October 24 2013 00:50 SC2Toastie wrote:

Dark Templar are pretty bad in a fight, Marauders/Stim take all their DPS from them. You just have to detect them. I like to have 3 turrets when I move out; Main minerals, Natural minerals, Front. Also, you should have 1/2 scans saved for Observers.

This gives you ample protection against Dark Templar if you are paying attention. When you confirm DTs, it is advised to add another turret next to your Tech labs/ Reactors.



Saving the scans for observer is definitely very important and helps in this, but I don't think having 3 missile turrets when you leave your base is good.. Getting up a 3rd base and 5 rax fast is very important.
If you see tech play that you can't pin-point a turret at the front should be enough combined with good crisis management.


“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”
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