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On October 16 2013 05:41 vaderseven wrote: I respectfully disagree on the c.shield issue. At least you have a logical thought process behind what you say.
I really don't like applying the word coin flip to how bomber was using that timing. I'll edit in my reasoning tonight after I get home from work.
It's the build itself which is coinflippy, not the way Bomber used it; he did not use it haphazardly, though ironically it worked despite not running into the opening Bomber was probably anticipating, i. e. the gasless 4 queens opening with late metaboost that Scarlett had used the two previous maps.
Hahaha. That's the proof I was going to state.
The reason of why it is not coinflippy is that even if it goes up against something that it is not favorable vs there are ways to play it out in which the Terran will not be at a large disadvantage.
I really would like to say that my main issue with your line of reasoning has to do with assuming that it is scout able by a lack of hellions.
Look at some of bomber's other builds. This is far from the only build that can be done without hellions. To scout this, I believe that a Zerg would need to see one or more of the following (the more of these that they see the more sure they are that this build is coming):
1. Late Factory (and/or no hellions) 2. Multi Rax opening after FE without a fast 3rd CC 3. Large marine force moving out at the c shield timing
All that bomber was allowing to easily be seen in his build was the lack of hellions. If I recall correctly, he used marine movements in smart ways to prevent the confirmation of #2 and #3. I think he has used the opening before even (vs either symbol or jeadong?).
I would expand this discussion point to be in a similar boat of Maru's 2 base builds. These builds are hitting the timing that Zerg's are power to prepare for the 3 Base 4M mid game. They are rely on very good map control, proper army movements, and a clear reliance on 3 base play in other games. If they were blind counterable (i.e. the Zerg could count on the player to do them without scouting) or easy to scout based on one simple part of the Terran's play then they would never work vs good players and would be coinflips vs lesser players.
As it is, they are great plays in best of X matches vs players all the way up to the very best ZvT Zerg players as long as they not overdone or poorly executed.
I think you are implying that proper map control / army movements on the part of the Terran suggests that you do not allow for such actions to be a part of the plan/style. That's not fair!
Im going to rewatch the games tonight so I can add some more factual support to this. That or I will retract my statements if I feel you are in the right after a careful look at the games. I am open to being wrong.
Well this may sound a weird question but how is terran doing right now in the game? I've been out of SC2 for 3 months and right now i'm completely lost...
I know that i was planning on switching races because of my lack of skill, i can't get out of plat by any means. Is there something in the current meta that may keep me playing T? I mean, it's the race i love but only gets me stressed..
On October 17 2013 06:00 noSec wrote: Hey guys, whats up?
Well this may sound a weird question but how is terran doing right now in the game? I've been out of SC2 for 3 months and right now i'm completely lost...
I know that i was planning on switching races because of my lack of skill, i can't get out of plat by any means. Is there something in the current meta that may keep me playing T? I mean, it's the race i love but only gets me stressed..
What's your question? Is T not strong enough? No, T is fine, you're probably just lost because you haven't played for a while. Grind unranked games, watch your replays, study what your opponent does. Also watch streams, find out what pros do.
On October 17 2013 06:42 noSec wrote: My question is: Does terran got patched for better or for worse in these 3 months? And i was already losing before taking a break from the game =D
Yea, i mean, i know the game is balanced but right now to play against Zerg and Protoss feels the same way it did 3 months ago or something got easier or more difficult?
On October 17 2013 07:03 noSec wrote: Yea, i mean, i know the game is balanced but right now to play against Zerg and Protoss feels the same way it did 3 months ago or something got easier or more difficult?
I still don't understand what you're asking. The meta game shifts pretty constantly so nothing is going to stay the "same".
Does anyone have the VOD of the games between Maru and Parting in GSL? If not, can someone provide the build order for the build order of maru? he opened I beileve reaper->reactor, and fast second barracks for faster stim. I want a safer ladder TVP opening. Reaper lets you scout around the map and fast second barracks gives you fast stim to defend blink and also do a timing attack. I usually open widowmine aggression so I want to learn how to use reapers.
On October 17 2013 12:17 WonDeRSC wrote: Does anyone have the VOD of the games between Maru and Parting in GSL? If not, can someone provide the build order for the build order of maru? he opened I beileve reaper->reactor, and fast second barracks for faster stim. I want a safer ladder TVP opening. Reaper lets you scout around the map and fast second barracks gives you fast stim to defend blink and also do a timing attack. I usually open widowmine aggression so I want to learn how to use reapers.
Hi I got some help with my TvP reaper build from a master player. I sent it to you in a PM. There are a few variations of this. But the only vary in how early you get the ebay. The one I sent you is in my opinion the safest one. I don't remember what Maru did exactly. I think I saw the game though.
On October 17 2013 07:03 noSec wrote: Yea, i mean, i know the game is balanced but right now to play against Zerg and Protoss feels the same way it did 3 months ago or something got easier or more difficult?
In my personal experience, things became harder against Zerg because they learnt how to properly play against 4M. Not much changed against Protoss for me.
On October 17 2013 12:17 WonDeRSC wrote: Does anyone have the VOD of the games between Maru and Parting in GSL?
The reason of why it is not coinflippy is that even if it goes up against something that it is not favorable vs there are ways to play it out in which the Terran will not be at a large disadvantage.
I really would like to say that my main issue with your line of reasoning has to do with assuming that it is scout able by a lack of hellions.
Look at some of bomber's other builds. This is far from the only build that can be done without hellions. To scout this, I believe that a Zerg would need to see one or more of the following (the more of these that they see the more sure they are that this build is coming):
1. Late Factory (and/or no hellions) 2. Multi Rax opening after FE without a fast 3rd CC 3. Large marine force moving out at the c shield timing
All that bomber was allowing to easily be seen in his build was the lack of hellions. If I recall correctly, he used marine movements in smart ways to prevent the confirmation of #2 and #3. I think he has used the opening before even (vs either symbol or jeadong?).
I would expand this discussion point to be in a similar boat of Maru's 2 base builds. These builds are hitting the timing that Zerg's are power to prepare for the 3 Base 4M mid game. They are rely on very good map control, proper army movements, and a clear reliance on 3 base play in other games. If they were blind counterable (i.e. the Zerg could count on the player to do them without scouting) or easy to scout based on one simple part of the Terran's play then they would never work vs good players and would be coinflips vs lesser players.
As it is, they are great plays in best of X matches vs players all the way up to the very best ZvT Zerg players as long as they not overdone or poorly executed.
I think you are implying that proper map control / army movements on the part of the Terran suggests that you do not allow for such actions to be a part of the plan/style. That's not fair!
Im going to rewatch the games tonight so I can add some more factual support to this. That or I will retract my statements if I feel you are in the right after a careful look at the games. I am open to being wrong.
Bombers C. Shield timing is deviation that starts at ~3:45 (when the 2nd barracks starts).
At that time, he has two marines. He sends these two marines to check for an overlord behind his natural. Note, this location is only just now possible for an overlord to be at (for proof, watch the vod or replay and notice how the first scouting overlord could just now be at this location).
He then adds two barracks in his main in a spot that is close to where he confirmed there is no overlord and farthest from the edges of his base that an overlord could be approaching.
As the 2nd scouting overlord arrives he sends a marine to the top part of his main to block the possible path of said overlord that would allow scouting of his extra barracks. The overlord actually does come in and scout the single gas but does not see any barracks and would have been killable before doing so had it tried to scout longer than it did. This all happens at around 5:40.
Bomber finishes a supply depot wall at the top of his ramp at about 5:50 which allows for the blocking of a speed zergling scout runby. His barracks are located in such a location that they are not scoutable from the ramp. This timing is very nice as speed can be done right around this time in some builds.
Bomber rallys marines from rax 2 and 3 to the ramp. This allows for a fast enough reaction to kill scouting overlords by sending about 2 marines to any that come in and hides the marine count safely at the same time.
Bomber moves out at 6:45 with 14 marines. He hugs the side of the ramp leaving his natural to prevent a spotting ovi from seeing the move out.
This image shows what a unit at a watchtower allows to be seen.
and this next one shows where the marines in the move out moved past this tower.
See how even a watchtower would not spot the move out?
Bomber was not flipping a coin. Bomber was playing a set of cards close to his chest that took into account all possible standard scouting behaviors and timings. All that scarlet knew at the time that this hit was that Bomber had at least one gas (built later than the standard first gas timing), two marines, two bases, and did not have a standard hellion timing.
This would appear to be several possible plays. It could be a three CC before gas, it could be a fast starport, it could be a stim timing, it could be a c shield timing, it could be many things.
This timing hits FAST. Bombers plan abuses exact map considerations and is not scoutable without some kind of non standard overlord positioning (which would be bad vs standard terran play) (an overlord could have spotted the marines moving out but would have been unable to provide scouting in the main of terran so why place it there).
This is as far from a coinflip as you can get in a best of X vs a top tier player. It basically forces the Zerg to do a small coin flip in which they must choose between assuming a 3 CC terran, a 2 base port terran, a 2 base stim terran, or a 2 base c shield terran. In a boX, where Bomber has shown that he prefers other plays most of the time (and his history shows that as well), this is simply a strong play backed by strong map control and army movements in order to gain a win and maybe force a more defense mindset than would be normal in future games.
Like I have said, if a player did this build every game it would be horrible. Thats why it is not standard. Standard is what can be done almost every game vs anything and have a way to play it out to a win. This c shield timing is not standard, but that does not make it a coinflip.
The reason of why it is not coinflippy is that even if it goes up against something that it is not favorable vs there are ways to play it out in which the Terran will not be at a large disadvantage.
I really would like to say that my main issue with your line of reasoning has to do with assuming that it is scout able by a lack of hellions.
Look at some of bomber's other builds. This is far from the only build that can be done without hellions. To scout this, I believe that a Zerg would need to see one or more of the following (the more of these that they see the more sure they are that this build is coming):
1. Late Factory (and/or no hellions) 2. Multi Rax opening after FE without a fast 3rd CC 3. Large marine force moving out at the c shield timing
All that bomber was allowing to easily be seen in his build was the lack of hellions. If I recall correctly, he used marine movements in smart ways to prevent the confirmation of #2 and #3. I think he has used the opening before even (vs either symbol or jeadong?).
I would expand this discussion point to be in a similar boat of Maru's 2 base builds. These builds are hitting the timing that Zerg's are power to prepare for the 3 Base 4M mid game. They are rely on very good map control, proper army movements, and a clear reliance on 3 base play in other games. If they were blind counterable (i.e. the Zerg could count on the player to do them without scouting) or easy to scout based on one simple part of the Terran's play then they would never work vs good players and would be coinflips vs lesser players.
As it is, they are great plays in best of X matches vs players all the way up to the very best ZvT Zerg players as long as they not overdone or poorly executed.
I think you are implying that proper map control / army movements on the part of the Terran suggests that you do not allow for such actions to be a part of the plan/style. That's not fair!
Im going to rewatch the games tonight so I can add some more factual support to this. That or I will retract my statements if I feel you are in the right after a careful look at the games. I am open to being wrong.
Bombers C. Shield timing is deviation that starts at ~3:45 (when the 2nd barracks starts).
At that time, he has two marines. He sends these two marines to check for an overlord behind his natural. Note, this location is only just now possible for an overlord to be at (for proof, watch the vod or replay and notice how the first scouting overlord could just now be at this location).
He then adds two barracks in his main in a spot that is close to where he confirmed there is no overlord and farthest from the edges of his base that an overlord could be approaching.
As the 2nd scouting overlord arrives he sends a marine to the top part of his main to block the possible path of said overlord that would allow scouting of his extra barracks. The overlord actually does come in and scout the single gas but does not see any barracks and would have been killable before doing so had it tried to scout longer than it did. This all happens at around 5:40.
Bomber finishes a supply depot wall at the top of his ramp at about 5:50 which allows for the blocking of a speed zergling scout runby. His barracks are located in such a location that they are not scoutable from the ramp. This timing is very nice as speed can be done right around this time in some builds.
Bomber rallys marines from rax 2 and 3 to the ramp. This allows for a fast enough reaction to kill scouting overlords by sending about 2 marines to any that come in and hides the marine count safely at the same time.
Bomber moves out at 6:45 with 14 marines. He hugs the side of the ramp leaving his natural to prevent a spotting ovi from seeing the move out.
This image shows what a unit at a watchtower allows to be seen.
and this next one shows where the marines in the move out moved past this tower.
See how even a watchtower would not spot the move out?
Bomber was not flipping a coin. Bomber was playing a set of cards close to his chest that took into account all possible standard scouting behaviors and timings. All that scarlet knew at the time that this hit was that Bomber had at least one gas (built later than the standard first gas timing), two marines, two bases, and did not have a standard hellion timing.
This would appear to be several possible plays. It could be a three CC before gas, it could be a fast starport, it could be a stim timing, it could be a c shield timing, it could be many things.
This timing hits FAST. Bombers plan abuses exact map considerations and is not scoutable without some kind of non standard overlord positioning (which would be bad vs standard terran play) (an overlord could have spotted the marines moving out but would have been unable to provide scouting in the main of terran so why place it there).
This is as far from a coinflip as you can get in a best of X vs a top tier player. It basically forces the Zerg to do a small coin flip in which they must choose between assuming a 3 CC terran, a 2 base port terran, a 2 base stim terran, or a 2 base c shield terran. In a boX, where Bomber has shown that he prefers other plays most of the time (and his history shows that as well), this is simply a strong play backed by strong map control and army movements in order to gain a win and maybe force a more defense mindset than would be normal in future games.
Like I have said, if a player did this build every game it would be horrible. Thats why it is not standard. Standard is what can be done almost every game vs anything and have a way to play it out to a win. This c shield timing is not standard, but that does not make it a coinflip.
Wow thank you very much for this detailed explanation. I like this build very much but I do not posses the deep understanding as you seem to. I'm not sure whether it was mentioned before. But this build was also covered in a daily about Bombers TvZ builds http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-629-topic-tba/. You can get some nice information about the followup with tanks which makes sense because usually the zerg is stuck on slow banes.
I have tried some bfh attaks in tvz latley. I have tried both 2/3 fact and 2/3 ccs, the 3 ccs seems to confuse the zergs a lot! The 10+bfhs often do a lot of damage and hit well before mutas!
The problem though is how to follow it up and win. I cant really get th transition to work, and a 1-1 mech push is usually too late and slow, the zerg can drone back up. Also I get a lot of extra minerals and can only dump them on helions/helbats which are usually pretty useless because of mutas or roaches.
I am theorycrafting on following up with helbat drops (vs roaches), and then go bio... Are is there any other transitions out there, or is any bfh opening a semi all-in?
If you do a lot of damage atleast in my experience you can follow it up with Marine/Marauder + BFH push shortly after if they over commit to roaches just because they won't be able to make Muta in time to defend a drop in the main and a MMM+BFH push to their third you snipe their third , take your own and kick in your macro to do a Pain Parade he won't be able to rebuild his economy enough to fend off the parade if you have done that much damage......
The hardest part is just doing the damage with BFH to make your second attack an inevitable death dealing blow.
EDIT: This style is very all in though because if he defends it you pretty much are playing from behind
Is there any such thing as a 3cc bashee build in TvZ? I remember seeing banshees in pro matches, but I'm not sure if it was off of 3cc. Any build orders would be appreciated.
On October 19 2013 07:07 WonDeRSC wrote: Is there any such thing as a 3cc bashee build in TvZ? I remember seeing banshees in pro matches, but I'm not sure if it was off of 3cc. Any build orders would be appreciated.
On October 19 2013 07:07 WonDeRSC wrote: Is there any such thing as a 3cc bashee build in TvZ? I remember seeing banshees in pro matches, but I'm not sure if it was off of 3cc. Any build orders would be appreciated.
Yeah there is. But it's just a deviation of the standard 3cc play. You can choose to go 1/1/1 after you get your 3d cc. Then you get the normal 6 helions and 1-3 banshees. The goal of this build is to kill the 3d hatch before they can even mine from it and to pick up queens with the banshees. MMA did this vs Nerchio on WCS . Koreans have been doing this version of 3cc since the banshee buff. The first one I saw doing it was YoDa with great success. I'm pretty sure SuperNova did it too at Dreamhack Bucharest, but I'm not sure about that. It will dealy the rax 4 and 5 and the ebays a bit compared to 3cc. The most significant difference is that it will delay stim for some time. But it's relatively safe because banshee's do great against roaches. I'm not entirely sure about the bo. I think after the 3th cc you get factory, then reactor on rax. Then you 6 helions. With the rax you a techlab, build a starport and get a second gas. Then you swap the starport to the techlab and get a banshee and cloak.
Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.
As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.
1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.
As for the TvZ issues: In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
On 4 player maps I recommend gas first drop TvP. See a few pages earlier in this thread where it's discussed/referenced.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6l3cQS6.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v8bYtwG.png)
