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On October 10 2013 04:46 mizU wrote:
i opened 1 rax cc into a 3 rax cs marine timing and managed to kill about 12 drones and a third before he got speed and killed my marines (~16)
is this worth it for me?
the zerg typed in chat and said it was a terrible trade for me?
Combat Shield marine timings are awful. If he scouts you, he can simply eat you with lingspam as you move out. If he doesn't scout you, you kill an empty hatchery and maybe nab a queen or two, then lose everything to panic lings and have no standing army with which to take a third. Worst case is autoloss, best case is slightly behind.
Speedlings pumped from injected hatcheries + range 5 queens are why Terrans never use anything except hellions or air units to attack a zerg. It's just not worth moving out until you have a third base, all your infantry upgrades, medivacs, and a splash tool.
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I don't think thats entirely true. While I wouldn't rely on combat shield timings on ladder in a best of x series they can surprise a zerg and you definitely come out ahead if you snipe their third or kill a lot of drones.
Scarlett vs Bomber
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Yes, the example above shows that this build can be good as a metagame build versus greedy queen openings.
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bomber's combat shield timing only worked because Scarlett didn't see the marines moving out lol, notice how she's making drones at 5:15.. it's really not a good build
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Why is there so much less CC first openers? They are still viable right?
Even 3cc?
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Zergs have figured out how to outgreed the terran when they see CC first. They also have well ironed out all-ins that are designed to punish CC first.
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On October 12 2013 17:16 llIH wrote:
Why is there so much less CC first openers? They are still viable right?
Even 3cc?
It's still viable, why wouldn't it be?
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in the ladder map pool, what maps are very good for reaper openings and maps that are not good?
i guess you could answer whats good, i can deduce what the other maps would be haha
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On October 12 2013 14:00 PineapplePizza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 04:46 mizU wrote:
i opened 1 rax cc into a 3 rax cs marine timing and managed to kill about 12 drones and a third before he got speed and killed my marines (~16)
is this worth it for me?
the zerg typed in chat and said it was a terrible trade for me? Combat Shield marine timings are awful. If he scouts you, he can simply eat you with lingspam as you move out. If he doesn't scout you, you kill an empty hatchery and maybe nab a queen or two, then lose everything to panic lings and have no standing army with which to take a third. Worst case is autoloss, best case is slightly behind. Speedlings pumped from injected hatcheries + range 5 queens are why Terrans never use anything except hellions or air units to attack a zerg. It's just not worth moving out until you have a third base, all your infantry upgrades, medivacs, and a splash tool.
Saying it is good or bad like that is really weird.
Lay out the goals that you have and then discuss the build and tactics required and then, at the end, discuss how it is viable or not based on difficulty of those combined factors.
1. Goal: Hit a timing that exploits greedy openings of Zerg.
2. Build and Tactics: Combat shield timing attack with marines. This hits faster than a Stim attack and will not be blindly prepared for in the current metagame. Tactics will revolve around denying scouting during the timing at which you deviate from standard play and preventing spotting of the move out. Map considerations will need to be taken into account especially in regards to starting positions and overlord positions.
3. The build is fairly easy to execute build order wise but careful out of game preparation must be taken to properly position the small number of marines you will have to deny overlord scouts as you transition out of your opening into this play. Further measures must be taken to delay the time at which the Zerg realizes this attack is coming. This build suffers from blind countering if a Zerg is able to make a logical assumption that you will do it (i.e. you always do this build and he knows it).
Its not "bad" or "good." Have some real discussion about game plans, tactics, and how hard those items are to line up.
On October 12 2013 17:16 llIH wrote:
Why is there so much less CC first openers? They are still viable right?
Even 3cc?
Of course its viable. Ask a more specific question if you want a better answer. You did not even include a matchup.
On October 13 2013 00:16 KingofGods wrote:
Zergs have figured out how to outgreed the terran when they see CC first. They also have well ironed out all-ins that are designed to punish CC first.
KingofGods I keep seeing very assumptive posts crop up from you from time to time that are poorly (read completely not) supported by evidence on your end.
CC first is the most common opening in TvZ. I base this statement off of games from WCS KR, WCS AM, and WCS EU all from the past 30 or even 60 days.
While Zerg's do have well ironed out all-ins I would actually argue that they are not really designed to punish CC first as they are to punish the powering stage of 3CC double eng builds (that transition into 4M usually). The very few Zerg builds that are designed to be an all-in to punish CC first builds are, in general, blind one base builds.
I do not understand why you keep posting stuff like this. Please back up future statements with multiple professional games as references for your arguments are huge deviations from the common logic of an informed individual that watches and studies the game at a higher level.
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I'd like to add something about the marine combat shield timing. In the current meta where terrans open CC first or reapers, zergs are often very adventurous with their first overlords. Having a pure marine opening has a good chance in this meta to snipe some overlords (and make it harder for the zerg to scout your later push).
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On October 13 2013 12:47 Bulugulu wrote:
I'd like to add something about the marine combat shield timing. In the current meta where terrans open CC first or reapers, zergs are often very adventurous with their first overlords. Having a pure marine opening has a good chance in this meta to snipe some overlords (and make it harder for the zerg to scout your later push).
Which in turn allows you to cover your C.Shield play better. Which in turn means that a good Zerg is FORCED to blind counter a C.Shield timing if you open CC first pure marine.
Which in turn means that this timing window has opened up a new way back into long term play behind plays that do not require damage to be dealt.
That's how the metagame works! That's why saying C.Shield timings are 'good' or 'bad' just leaves me confused as it is not a relevant way to talk about builds/styles/plays that have shown that they work at top level play.
Who cares if it is 'good' or not. Learn it if you want to solve a problem and it appears to be a solution for that problem.
There is no such thing as a 'good' build . There is only good solutions to problems and bad situations. Talk/think about things in that manner and watch your how your strategic play explodes to new levels beyond that of 'build orders'.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 12:50 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 12:47 Bulugulu wrote:
I'd like to add something about the marine combat shield timing. In the current meta where terrans open CC first or reapers, zergs are often very adventurous with their first overlords. Having a pure marine opening has a good chance in this meta to snipe some overlords (and make it harder for the zerg to scout your later push). Which in turn allows you to cover your C.Shield play better. Which in turn means that a good Zerg is FORCED to blind counter a C.Shield timing if you open CC first pure marine. Which in turn means that this timing window has opened up a new way back into long term play behind plays that do not require damage to be dealt. That's how the metagame works! That's why saying C.Shield timings are 'good' or 'bad' just leaves me confused as it is not a relevant way to talk about builds/styles/plays that have shown that they work at top level play. Who cares if it is 'good' or not. Learn it if you want to solve a problem and it appears to be a solution for that problem. There is no such as a 'good' build if you look at every possible situation in a game. There is only good solutions to problems and bad situations to be in. Talk/think about things in that manner and watch your how your strategic play explodes to new levels beyond that of 'build orders'.
This made my day. I have been feeling this for so long. And it makes perfect sense. Thanks.
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Will try out the C.Shield timing.. By marine opening you mean 14cc into 3rax 2 gas right?
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do reaper openings work well in all maps?
what are some maps that dont work if it wasnt the case?
should you open reapers in every matchup?
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On October 14 2013 07:09 azngamer828 wrote:
do reaper openings work well in all maps?
what are some maps that dont work if it wasnt the case?
should you open reapers in every matchup?
Maps without accessible mains. Like WW. One path into the main, thats it. DWatcher as well. Doesn't mean you can't reaper, just means it's harder to get in the base.
Yeonsu and reapersu for me. I reaper everyone that map.
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If I wanted to coinflip someone I felt was cutting too many corners too often, wouldn't I be better off doing something with more damage potential, like 2 fact blue flame?
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in TvT, is there a way to defend a reaper or 2 reaper if you're going 1 rax expo?
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On October 14 2013 07:59 PineapplePizza wrote:
If I wanted to coinflip someone I felt was cutting too many corners too often, wouldn't I be better off doing something with more damage potential, like 2 fact blue flame?
If you want to hit the timing that 2 fact blue flames will hit at and punish a zerg that has shown that he likes to be greedy at that time than sure I would do that. If you want to punish a zerg that is being greedy behind mass queens on three bases then the combat shield timing is stronger. The hellion play is a bit more mobile but harder to hide and the marine play is less mobile but has obvious overlord limiting ability.
Your tone reveals to me a pre formed idea that the combat shield timing is a coinflip that is not as strong as another coinflip. I find that confusing as we are not talking about coinflips. We are talking about sharp plays that usually destabilize the game for one player or another. Both plays you mention have the ability to be done poorly and to be done artfully.
If you want to coinflip, go flip a coin. StarCraft isn't made of coins and marines and hellions are far from quarters and dimes.
I and everyone else get what you are saying, you think that the 2 factory blue flame timing offers a slightly stronger damage potential in situations where the zerg is allowed to know what is coming. Maybe the part that a good player is able to bring to the table is the surprise factor. Maybe a great player can use four marines to really limit scouting and create a path in the fog all the way into the Zerg's face.
Maybe an even greater player will use four marines to create the same path of darkness while playing greedy behind it which forces the best kind of decision that can be forced out of the enemy: be conservative and get behind or flip a coin and be ok. When we force those kind of decisions there is no chance of losing when we force the coin flip. Its completely different than how people normally talk about cheese and coinflips but in best of X and in long term metagame shifts THIS is what happens.
Today's "cheesy coinflip" is tomorrows gun that might be loaded that we force the enemy to play Russian roulette with.
Just keep in mind StarCraft was never really designed to be a deep game in a best of one situation. The depth of the game is only seen when looking at long term matchup trends and in close up encounters of multiple back to back games between two players.
TL;DR -
Maybe hellions are better for some players but when I look at the boX that bomber played vs scarlett in which he used the combat shield timing I cant find any logical reason that would support what you seem to think. The C.Shield timing was brilliant.
Granted no one is ever going to hit #1GM KR or win a Code S playing every TvZ just that build... but you really just don't get how the game works if you think that's what you are looking for when you find builds like this.
On October 14 2013 10:32 azngamer828 wrote:
in TvT, is there a way to defend a reaper or 2 reaper if you're going 1 rax expo?
Delay getting a reactor until you have four marines. You will bank a bit of gas but that's ok. Some players like to use a banshee to punish the delay in tech that 2 reapers causes though I like to just get 4 marines before reactor instead of 2.
Be careful, if its a 2 rax reaper you will need at least 2 rax of your own or really good micro and no delay in your hellions.
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On October 14 2013 10:32 azngamer828 wrote:
in TvT, is there a way to defend a reaper or 2 reaper if you're going 1 rax expo?
Delay getting a reactor until you have four marines. You will bank a bit of gas but that's ok. Some players like to use a banshee to punish the delay in tech that 2 reapers causes though I like to just get 4 marines before reactor instead of 2.
Be careful, if its a 2 rax reaper you will need at least 2 rax of your own or really good micro and no delay in your hellions.[/QUOTE]
my gas would be late if im going 1 rax and then CC?
or are you saying to get my gas after my CC?
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EPT
