EPTMy question is, why don't pros use an earlier rax timing, say an 8/8/8 (8 depot, 8 rax, 8 rax) and just go all-in with rines? You get a "critical mass" of marines much faster, and still have enough econ to put up an early bunker and you can still transition out of it if you kill off a good amount of workers or even just supply block your opponent (which is easy to do with a good handful of early-game marines). I've used this sometimes (high diamond/low masters level) and it works great. Am I missing something here? I'm sure there's a reason, but why isn't this used at high level? Thanks.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 184
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
My question is, why don't pros use an earlier rax timing, say an 8/8/8 (8 depot, 8 rax, 8 rax) and just go all-in with rines? You get a "critical mass" of marines much faster, and still have enough econ to put up an early bunker and you can still transition out of it if you kill off a good amount of workers or even just supply block your opponent (which is easy to do with a good handful of early-game marines). I've used this sometimes (high diamond/low masters level) and it works great. Am I missing something here? I'm sure there's a reason, but why isn't this used at high level? Thanks. | ||
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Yamato
United States33 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On October 15 2013 10:48 Yamato wrote: Quick question - does anyone have good resources on learning how to split marines (primarily vs banelings, although vs storm would be nice too)? I can't seem to do it right. One tool I like to use is the arcade game called "Marine Split Challenge", it puts you in a small arena covered in creep and banelings come at you from any direction, and then you have to split to survive. Each level gets harder and harder, but it gives you a good chance to practice the motion of splitting your units. Edit: There's a thread about it on TL here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206136 | ||
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azngamer828
United States137 Posts
*assume hes going 1 rax | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On October 15 2013 11:21 azngamer828 wrote: in TvT, is there a way to defend a reaper or 2 reaper if you're going 1 rax cc? *assume hes going 1 rax What kind of 1 rax CC? Reactor rax CC with a 15 gas? CC before 2nd depot or after it? And is the reaper proxy, meant to do damage, or just a scout? There are a lot of different types of builds going on here and it's hard to give a direct answer without specificity. | ||
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azngamer828
United States137 Posts
On October 15 2013 11:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: What kind of 1 rax CC? Reactor rax CC with a 15 gas? CC before 2nd depot or after it? And is the reaper proxy, meant to do damage, or just a scout? There are a lot of different types of builds going on here and it's hard to give a direct answer without specificity. 12 rax and 15cc (gasless) cc after 2nd depot reaper is not proxy, i would like to say damage any more questions feel free to ask. thanks~ | ||
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cptjibberjabber
Netherlands87 Posts
On October 15 2013 12:08 azngamer828 wrote: 12 rax and 15cc (gasless) cc after 2nd depot reaper is not proxy, i would like to say damage any more questions feel free to ask. thanks~ well in platinum where i'm at it is. I don't put the reactor down and just continuously produce marines while setting up my second and third rax. Use SCV's to hold the first 3 or so reapers and be careful not to lose your marines. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
depot CC rax gas fac | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:13 Pirfiktshon wrote: Depends on map really and I mean yes its possibly but depending on the map whether it has further rush distances or a 4 player map will make it even easier to defend. What do you mean? Depending on map means it will fail or succeed. Or easily def or just def? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:15 Pirfiktshon wrote: Honestly though in TvT Unless you are playing a 4 player map I DO NOT recommend CC first.... If i see cc first and I am playing on a 2 player map and scout it or 4 player map and scout it first ESPEICALLY if its on the lwo ground you can punish it HARD like there is so many things you can do.... If you scout the CC aren't you already behind? Don't you choose to go reaper before the CC is down for the opponent given he goes CC first? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Also opening reaper gives me good scouting information which if you do go CC first by the time my reaper gets there in a 2 player map like akilon you are going to lose scvs there is no way around that which I can put you massively behind by doing so..... Edit: I suck at explaining but basically CC first in TvT is really really greedy more so than in TvZ and TvP | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:23 Pirfiktshon wrote: Not really..... I can decide to expand which THAT would put me behind.... if I scout CC which normally i open with reaper first because it is so safe and its very malleable If i decide to put my gas and Minerals into 1-1-1 once I scout it then I can do a very lethal push especially because CC first puts you so far behind in tech that it would be hard to hold..... Also opening reaper gives me good scouting information which if you do go CC first by the time my reaper gets there in a 2 player map like akilon you are going to lose scvs there is no way around that which I can put you massively behind by doing so..... What you are describing I find quite vague. read: you used "normally". And you misunderstood what I meant about "behind". From your scenario it is given I go CC first and you go reaper opening. (1 rax) That is understandable. But I am asking about how likely or how it is possible or if it is possible to hold. I am not asking about the oponent's CC timing. I am going to wait and hear from TheDwf. Please don't take it personal. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:30 Pirfiktshon wrote: I understand I really suck at explaining stuff but simply put CC first puts you slightly ahead in Econ if your opponent opens with a gasless 1 Rax FE but with the current meta it puts you behind in tech which can be MASSIVELY exploited in most circumstances I don't know what you are talking about now. I even emphasized the usage of "normally" that you said earlier. "Behind"(I said this) was used in the context of seeing the CC with a scout. Here "normally" comes into play. What scouts the CC? Your reaper or scv? this is what makes the whole thing vague. I am fully aware of the mathematics of economy related to CC timings. I know that. I am specifically asking about CC first defense vs reapers. Obviously there will be a window of marines vs reapers. Before the hellion pops out. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 13 2013 00:16 KingofGods wrote: Zergs have figured out how to outgreed the terran when they see CC first. They also have well ironed out all-ins that are designed to punish CC first. There is no such thing; even the fastest 1-base all-ins like 6 pool or 10 pool bane/slowlings can be defended, though a shorter distance between bases and/or the spawn position (resulting in different wall layouts) can make things harder for 6p. On October 12 2013 14:00 PineapplePizza wrote: Combat Shield marine timings are awful. If he scouts you, he can simply eat you with lingspam as you move out. If he doesn't scout you, you kill an empty hatchery and maybe nab a queen or two, then lose everything to panic lings and have no standing army with which to take a third. Worst case is autoloss, best case is slightly behind. Speedlings pumped from injected hatcheries + range 5 queens are why Terrans never use anything except hellions or air units to attack a zerg. It's just not worth moving out until you have a third base, all your infantry upgrades, medivacs, and a splash tool. On October 12 2013 17:10 Eshez wrote: bomber's combat shield timing only worked because Scarlett didn't see the marines moving out lol, notice how she's making drones at 5:15.. it's really not a good build This. On October 13 2013 12:50 vaderseven wrote: Which in turn allows you to cover your C.Shield play better. Which in turn means that a good Zerg is FORCED to blind counter a C.Shield timing if you open CC first pure marine. Which in turn means that this timing window has opened up a new way back into long term play behind plays that do not require damage to be dealt. That's how the metagame works! That's why saying C.Shield timings are 'good' or 'bad' just leaves me confused as it is not a relevant way to talk about builds/styles/plays that have shown that they work at top level play. Who cares if it is 'good' or not. Learn it if you want to solve a problem and it appears to be a solution for that problem. There is no such thing as a 'good' build . There is only good solutions to problems and bad situations. Talk/think about things in that manner and watch your how your strategic play explodes to new levels beyond that of 'build orders'. While you're absolutely right that it makes little sense to call a build “good” or “bad” in a vacuum, CS timings ARE bad because since the Queen patch, they don't threaten anything. You're right that certain openings, albeit suboptimal or less efficient than standard stuff, can still be useful in the grand scheme of things because they force specific tweaks or prevent your opponent to play in certain ways. The mere threat of a 2 rax concussive in WoL TvP, for instance, prevented Protoss from building a robo before gates 2-3, which in turn weakened Protoss' scouting and thus made it easier to hide an early third CC or simply standard, etc.; so even if the opening was virtually extinct at the end of WoL, its ghost still had an impact on Protoss' standard builds, and thus strengthened other Terran builds. Alas, such is not the case for CS timings against Zerg because of things I discussed here. Zergs don't care at all about CS timings because they can reliably scout it in one way or another (even if you stop a slow Overlord sacrifice with your Marines, the fact there are no Hellions in the map—something suspicious in itself—means his Zerglings will see you move out; not to mention certain Overlord spots are impossible to deny) AND can defend it whether they opened with gas or not, while of course remaining ahead. Thus, you force absolutely nothing except some basic vigilance which should be the rule anyway. The opening would have its merits if, say, it could force specific Zerg reactions resulting in an enhanced position for standard builds, but sadly even slowlings (i. e. the best case scenario for Terran) and some Queens with Transfuse will defend it without any problem. PineapplePizza is right to call such builds “coinflips," because they completely rely on Zerg playing blind on autopilot as if you were going triple OC. In Bomber's case, it worked because he knew Scarlett never sacrifices an over to check what Terran is doing (and even then, her over briefly saw the Marines streaming out of the natural); for Jaedong, the spawn positions were favourable, and once again perhaps he knew Jaedong doesn't/rarely/never sacrifice overs; plus Jaedong was not playing SC2 during the times such timings were vaguely in use, and thus may not know the optimal answers. Basically, it relied on metagaming his opponents, capitalizing on unforced flaws in their play, just like Bogus used objectively super awful builds like 3 fact BFH or CC first into 6 rax Marines/Marauders SCV pull (!) to snipe Stephano's predictable patterns of play back in the WoL days. All of this is quite ironic, because in the end the “strength” of such builds come from the fact… they're bad, so no one even considers their use and they can end up being successful 1-2 time(s) once again because of this; there lies the “genius” aspect of such moves. But naturally, against an unknown (ladder) opponent, the opening will have much higher odds at badly flopping. Because he may systematically open with 20 speedlings for map control/presence. He may religiously sacrifice an over, or even get over speed early and fly over your bases with 2 overs, thus knowing absolutely everything you're doing. He may always build a Spine, or get a few defensive Roaches, etc., etc., so outside of a particular environment in which you have prepared and/or know your opponent will play in a specific way, this opening is not good. On October 14 2013 23:28 CakeSauc3 wrote: In TvZ and sometimes in TvP, I see pros often going proxy 11/11 rax or 11/12 or even 12/12 and then decide to either all-in or simply pressure hard before backing off and playing a macro game. At the same time, I know that in the beginning of Hots and sometimes since then early reaper builds have come up, sometimes even the 8/8/8 reaper build. My question is, why don't pros use an earlier rax timing, say an 8/8/8 (8 depot, 8 rax, 8 rax) and just go all-in with rines? You get a "critical mass" of marines much faster, and still have enough econ to put up an early bunker and you can still transition out of it if you kill off a good amount of workers or even just supply block your opponent (which is easy to do with a good handful of early-game marines). I've used this sometimes (high diamond/low masters level) and it works great. Am I missing something here? I'm sure there's a reason, but why isn't this used at high level? Thanks. 8/8 would sacrifice way too much—to the extent you would barely be able to build Marines in a continuous way along with Bunkers, let alone SCVs—compared with the upsides of having your Marines earlier. There's only a tiny window in which 8/8 would be more powerful, and nothing prevents Zerg from stalling (which is one of the common answers) until your opening self-defeats, while the 11/11 would still run the machine and threaten a decently quick expand. 11/11 is much better when it comes to balance agression and economy. On October 16 2013 00:46 llIH wrote: Is it possible to hold a reactor reaper rush when going CC first? depot CC rax gas fac What do you mean with Reactor Reaper rush? Reactor before Reapers x2 or 2 Reapers before Reactor? If it's the latter, CC rax gas can hold on Whirlwind (e. g. Heart vs BratOK, ATC), but on other maps with ledges it might be too delicate and you may end up behind with the damages sustained before your Hellion comes into play. Your first Marine appears around the time the Reaper arrives, so you have to shield him with 2-3 SCVs. Obviously, you have to skip the Reactor until you have stabilized. At any rate, the Reaper expand will have no trouble equalizing and can have the upper hand if you lose the micro war. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
I really don't like applying the word coin flip to how bomber was using that timing. I'll edit in my reasoning tonight after I get home from work. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On October 14 2013 23:27 azngamer828 wrote: Delay getting a reactor until you have four marines. You will bank a bit of gas but that's ok. Some players like to use a banshee to punish the delay in tech that 2 reapers causes though I like to just get 4 marines before reactor instead of 2. Be careful, if its a 2 rax reaper you will need at least 2 rax of your own or really good micro and no delay in your hellions. my gas would be late if im going 1 rax and then CC? or are you saying to get my gas after my CC?[/QUOTE] I was assuming a 1 fax reactor feel (15 gas timing). If you are going plain no gas feel holding vs 2 reapers should be fairly easy. Just keep your marines together and react quickly. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 16 2013 05:41 vaderseven wrote: I respectfully disagree on the c.shield issue. At least you have a logical thought process behind what you say. I really don't like applying the word coin flip to how bomber was using that timing. I'll edit in my reasoning tonight after I get home from work. It's the build itself which is coinflippy, not the way Bomber used it; he did not use it haphazardly, though ironically it worked despite not running into the opening Bomber was probably anticipating, i. e. the gasless 4 queens opening with late metaboost that Scarlett had used the two previous maps. | ||
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