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On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.
As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.
1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.
As for the TvZ issues: In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.
I agree proxy 10 gates can be held with 14cc as long as they are not too close to you, I use my CC scv to check for very close gates. If you scout them in your base, 2 rax to wall of your mineral line and you are all set. Some people like to use depot at ramp as a spotter but i prefer to put the first depot to plug any holes in my mineral patches just in case of proxy 2 gate. If they are a bit further back you should be fine holding at the top of your ramp, (assuming you scout their main).
When I go cc-first I have a kind of flow chart in my head of every possible protoss cheese that can (and WILL more likely than not) hit you. Between building placement, bunker timings(I go 2nd bunker by 7 min), and marine placement (first 2 in bunker, next 6 in main mineral line, rest of them on ramp/natural) you can hold, a lot of cheese.
Early game aggression tvp has declined because any good protos can hold off mine drops if they know your are going gas and outright kill you with stalkers if your go hellions. I think the early stim timings are the best bet. See hack vs crank and hack vs hero for some recent VODs of early aggression vs protoss. Also note, that they do not put you in a great spot economically which is why I prefer cc first. If you can land the same mine drops terrans were hitting months ago, its an easy win. But you are relying on protoss not scouting early or them forgetting how to defend mine drops.
I think 1-1-1 builds also might be the safest build against one base protos aggression because seige tank can pop out if you know protoss is one base.
On October 18 2013 03:30 vaderseven wrote: Bomber was not flipping a coin. Bomber was playing a set of cards close to his chest that took into account all possible standard scouting behaviors and timings. All that scarlet knew at the time that this hit was that Bomber had at least one gas (built later than the standard first gas timing), two marines, two bases, and did not have a standard hellion timing.
This would appear to be several possible plays. It could be a three CC before gas, it could be a fast starport, it could be a stim timing, it could be a c shield timing, it could be many things.
This timing hits FAST. Bombers plan abuses exact map considerations and is not scoutable without some kind of non standard overlord positioning (which would be bad vs standard terran play) (an overlord could have spotted the marines moving out but would have been unable to provide scouting in the main of terran so why place it there).
This is as far from a coinflip as you can get in a best of X vs a top tier player. It basically forces the Zerg to do a small coin flip in which they must choose between assuming a 3 CC terran, a 2 base port terran, a 2 base stim terran, or a 2 base c shield terran. In a boX, where Bomber has shown that he prefers other plays most of the time (and his history shows that as well), this is simply a strong play backed by strong map control and army movements in order to gain a win and maybe force a more defense mindset than would be normal in future games.
Like I have said, if a player did this build every game it would be horrible. Thats why it is not standard. Standard is what can be done almost every game vs anything and have a way to play it out to a win. This c shield timing is not standard, but that does not make it a coinflip.
Two things: first, thank you so much for breaking this build down so incredibly! I wanted to try it out after watching him do it vs scarlet (and jaedong I believe) but had no idea where to start.
Second, just wanted to say that your definition of what standard play is, is by far the best one I've ever heard.
A lot of the times the +1 is just because the terran is already going to build the quick ebay as a precaution against dts or oracles and so they might as well upgrade +1 as well. In either of your builds you mentioned, you really have to hit BEFORE those timings because protoss are so greedy these days they will have 1 or sometimes 2 collosi when that attack hits.
3 rax allows you to have a bigger hit squad when you hit early and force out photon overcharge. This is right around the time when protoss don't have a lot of units and you can usually snipe a couple sentries along with a bunch of probes.
Going the early +1 route isn't really about the +1, stim, 2-4 medivac timing. It's really about starting the upgrade early so you can hit a +1/+1 timing and then later a +2/+2 timing with scv pull if you choose.
On October 20 2013 07:02 Survivor61316 wrote: TvP question here:
Is Demuslim's fast +1, Stim, Medivac timing pressure (off 2 rax) better/worse/even with the more WOL style 3 rax, Stim, Medivac?
First of all it's not Demuslims build, this is korean meta for quite a while now. The reason being that protoss are teching up quickly while defending with MSC, and the unit count from 3 rax isn't going to allow you to break them. Therefor terran matches by rushing tech out himself and getting as quick medivacs as possible to pressure toss. Also it allows for a faster 3rd and earlier engibay for upgrades/turrets versus the common dt/oracle harass nowadays. Bottom line - it's better than 3 raxes in the current meta, versus most builds that protoss uses atm.
On October 20 2013 07:02 Survivor61316 wrote: TvP question here:
Is Demuslim's fast +1, Stim, Medivac timing pressure (off 2 rax) better/worse/even with the more WOL style 3 rax, Stim, Medivac?
First of all it's not Demuslims build, this is korean meta for quite a while now. The reason being that protoss are teching up quickly while defending with MSC, and the unit count from 3 rax isn't going to allow you to break them. Therefor terran matches by rushing tech out himself and getting as quick medivacs as possible to pressure toss. Also it allows for a faster 3rd and earlier engibay for upgrades/turrets versus the common dt/oracle harass nowadays. Bottom line - it's better than 3 raxes in the current meta, versus most builds that protoss uses atm.
Well Demuslims been doing it for at least 5 months now, so...
In fact, the reason I was asking is because it was an older strategy, and I wanted to know whether it was better than the standard 3 rax because in most pro games I watch they do something more akin to the old WOL style. And the ebay is not a precaution against dts or oracles, its first and foremost to get the +1 attack, as you are already mining gas faster than you would have been it wings, so the ebay is to give that extra gas an outlet to be spent. Blindly throwing down an ebay without actually scouting dt or oracle harass is a waste of resources.
No it's not a waste of resources.. It's standard play in TvP to get +1->fact or fact->+1. And you always want to have an e-bay even if you haven't scouted dt or oracles so that you have the option of throwing down turrets since tech can be hidden or delayed. Anyway this style has existed for quite a while, but since about WCS finals 2 it has become normal meta which most pros use. The actual first person I remember using this is actually thorzain back in WOL.
On October 20 2013 15:12 Bulugulu wrote: No it's not a waste of resources.. It's standard play in TvP to get +1->fact or fact->+1. And you always want to have an e-bay even if you haven't scouted dt or oracles so that you have the option of throwing down turrets since tech can be hidden or delayed. Anyway this style has existed for quite a while, but since about WCS finals 2 it has become normal meta which most pros use. The actual first person I remember using this is actually thorzain back in WOL.
Obviously you always want a ebay eventually, but yes it is a waste of resources to get it at 4:45 for any reason other than +1 without scouting stargate (which is easy to do).
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.
As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.
1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.
As for the TvZ issues: In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.
I agree proxy 10 gates can be held with 14cc as long as they are not too close to you, I use my CC scv to check for very close gates. If you scout them in your base, 2 rax to wall of your mineral line and you are all set. Some people like to use depot at ramp as a spotter but i prefer to put the first depot to plug any holes in my mineral patches just in case of proxy 2 gate. If they are a bit further back you should be fine holding at the top of your ramp, (assuming you scout their main).
When I go cc-first I have a kind of flow chart in my head of every possible protoss cheese that can (and WILL more likely than not) hit you. Between building placement, bunker timings(I go 2nd bunker by 7 min), and marine placement (first 2 in bunker, next 6 in main mineral line, rest of them on ramp/natural) you can hold, a lot of cheese.
Early game aggression tvp has declined because any good protos can hold off mine drops if they know your are going gas and outright kill you with stalkers if your go hellions. I think the early stim timings are the best bet. See hack vs crank and hack vs hero for some recent VODs of early aggression vs protoss. Also note, that they do not put you in a great spot economically which is why I prefer cc first. If you can land the same mine drops terrans were hitting months ago, its an easy win. But you are relying on protoss not scouting early or them forgetting how to defend mine drops.
I think 1-1-1 builds also might be the safest build against one base protos aggression because seige tank can pop out if you know protoss is one base.
Thank you both! Great tips, will stick to 14cc then.
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.
As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.
1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.
As for the TvZ issues: In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.
I agree proxy 10 gates can be held with 14cc as long as they are not too close to you, I use my CC scv to check for very close gates. If you scout them in your base, 2 rax to wall of your mineral line and you are all set. Some people like to use depot at ramp as a spotter but i prefer to put the first depot to plug any holes in my mineral patches just in case of proxy 2 gate. If they are a bit further back you should be fine holding at the top of your ramp, (assuming you scout their main).
When I go cc-first I have a kind of flow chart in my head of every possible protoss cheese that can (and WILL more likely than not) hit you. Between building placement, bunker timings(I go 2nd bunker by 7 min), and marine placement (first 2 in bunker, next 6 in main mineral line, rest of them on ramp/natural) you can hold, a lot of cheese.
Early game aggression tvp has declined because any good protos can hold off mine drops if they know your are going gas and outright kill you with stalkers if your go hellions. I think the early stim timings are the best bet. See hack vs crank and hack vs hero for some recent VODs of early aggression vs protoss. Also note, that they do not put you in a great spot economically which is why I prefer cc first. If you can land the same mine drops terrans were hitting months ago, its an easy win. But you are relying on protoss not scouting early or them forgetting how to defend mine drops.
I think 1-1-1 builds also might be the safest build against one base protos aggression because seige tank can pop out if you know protoss is one base.
I would love to see some replays of how you do that blocking of holes with depots and how you perform your 14cc build. Would you mind? I'm not questioning your skill, that's not why I ask. I like what you wrote. What league are you? I am also a CC first player
Hey guys, this is probably a funny question but bear with me. It's not primarily about strategy but about ggtracker's reliability. So I am a casual player, skillwise I would frankly say diamond to low masters across T and P but I've never bothered pushing myself as I play mainly for fun. And my 85 apm average reflects that.
I uploaded a bunch of tvz replays and to my surprise ggtracker shows me consistently at 90 to 92 SQ across 4 base vs 4 base games (i.e. high grandmaster). Well obviously I am not a GM player let alone a high GM although I do have BW experience. Basically I make enough production to suit my income and I always play greedy, like 3CC kind of greedy. I am guilty of queuing stuff but very occasionally. Also my game sense is probably not too shabby.
Now I figured to myself, if my SQ is that good, then why am I not in masters (this season)? Surely a GM macro can power me to at least mid masters. No, I don't make stupid decisions.
On October 20 2013 23:17 shadymmj wrote: Hey guys, this is probably a funny question but bear with me. It's not primarily about strategy but about ggtracker's reliability. So I am a casual player, skillwise I would frankly say diamond to low masters across T and P but I've never bothered pushing myself as I play mainly for fun. And my 85 apm average reflects that.
I uploaded a bunch of tvz replays and to my surprise ggtracker shows me consistently at 90 to 92 SQ across 4 base vs 4 base games (i.e. high grandmaster). Well obviously I am not a GM player let alone a high GM although I do have BW experience. Basically I make enough production to suit my income and I always play greedy, like 3CC kind of greedy. I am guilty of queuing stuff but very occasionally. Also my game sense is probably not too shabby.
Now I figured to myself, if my SQ is that good, then why am I not in masters (this season)? Surely a GM macro can power me to at least mid masters. No, I don't make stupid decisions.
Either that or GGtracker is broke.
Interesting anyways. Are you mech player? :D I love your 3CC style.
On October 20 2013 23:17 shadymmj wrote: Hey guys, this is probably a funny question but bear with me. It's not primarily about strategy but about ggtracker's reliability. So I am a casual player, skillwise I would frankly say diamond to low masters across T and P but I've never bothered pushing myself as I play mainly for fun. And my 85 apm average reflects that.
I uploaded a bunch of tvz replays and to my surprise ggtracker shows me consistently at 90 to 92 SQ across 4 base vs 4 base games (i.e. high grandmaster). Well obviously I am not a GM player let alone a high GM although I do have BW experience. Basically I make enough production to suit my income and I always play greedy, like 3CC kind of greedy. I am guilty of queuing stuff but very occasionally. Also my game sense is probably not too shabby.
Now I figured to myself, if my SQ is that good, then why am I not in masters (this season)? Surely a GM macro can power me to at least mid masters. No, I don't make stupid decisions.
Either that or GGtracker is broke.
I haven't uploaded to GGTracker in a while, but the majority of my most recent macro games were the same as you, GM-High GM SQ. I personally think the mantra 'macro to masters' is a lot more complex than it appears, I think mistakes in other big areas and mechanical slips can cost you the game, for instance, TvP micro, splitting, etc also have a big impact on winning or losing, and therefore getting into Masters.
So to cut the fluff I guess it might be wise to try and target improved in other areas aside from macro?
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.
As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.
1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.
As for the TvZ issues: In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.
I agree proxy 10 gates can be held with 14cc as long as they are not too close to you, I use my CC scv to check for very close gates. If you scout them in your base, 2 rax to wall of your mineral line and you are all set. Some people like to use depot at ramp as a spotter but i prefer to put the first depot to plug any holes in my mineral patches just in case of proxy 2 gate. If they are a bit further back you should be fine holding at the top of your ramp, (assuming you scout their main).
When I go cc-first I have a kind of flow chart in my head of every possible protoss cheese that can (and WILL more likely than not) hit you. Between building placement, bunker timings(I go 2nd bunker by 7 min), and marine placement (first 2 in bunker, next 6 in main mineral line, rest of them on ramp/natural) you can hold, a lot of cheese.
Early game aggression tvp has declined because any good protos can hold off mine drops if they know your are going gas and outright kill you with stalkers if your go hellions. I think the early stim timings are the best bet. See hack vs crank and hack vs hero for some recent VODs of early aggression vs protoss. Also note, that they do not put you in a great spot economically which is why I prefer cc first. If you can land the same mine drops terrans were hitting months ago, its an easy win. But you are relying on protoss not scouting early or them forgetting how to defend mine drops.
I think 1-1-1 builds also might be the safest build against one base protos aggression because seige tank can pop out if you know protoss is one base.
I would love to see some replays of how you do that blocking of holes with depots and how you perform your 14cc build. Would you mind? I'm not questioning your skill, that's not why I ask. I like what you wrote. What league are you? I am also a CC first player
I'm only a diam player atm. I was in masters for a while when hots first came out cause wasn't everyone :p I can make a video of the same build going up against different openings. I have a lot of games against proxy gates, stargates and other shenanigans. But it makes sense because if the game goes long my build gives me a huge edge.
On October 20 2013 04:06 eeChiama wrote: Hey fellow terrans, my TvP is really suffering. (40%ish, diamond facing masters pretty often).
Any advice on early game aggression vs protoss? Has anyone had success with 13 gas builds?
The thing is I don't want to go 14cc anymore, at least on two player maps I'm getting proxy 10gate'd way too often. Should I go for reaper openings or go back to the 1 Rax FE builds? Which one would you say is the safest? I feel blink stalkers are a very popular counter to reaper openings and I'd like to avoid them.
Is it still possible to go CC before 2nd depot?
And regarding TvZ, I have a question. How do you identify roach hydra timings? You know, the 11min or so ones.. The thing is I can't tell apart defensive roaches (v hellions) into muta/ling from roach/hydra styles and I accidentally end up going for marine/tank style against mutas... It's not really that bad but it actually made me realize I can't recognize those builds. What are the tells? Roaches should by upgraded by what time?
Thanks!
Early game aggression vs Protoss, aside from a brilliantly executed gasless 2rax, is very difficult to pull off. I haven't ever had much success with it.
As for your issues with 14cc, you can actually defend a proxy 10gate with a CC first provided you scout it. In general, these days I build my CC on the high ground (but don't wall off, because that creates a host of other problems) and send out a scout as i build it, which checks the proxy locations first, and then goes to the protoss main base. If i scout anything indicating a 10gate i do 14cc 14 rax 15 rax, with a cut on workers to get an immediate bunker on the high ground ASAP. You have to delay with workers to keep the zealot at bay.
1 rax FE is still fine, CC first is just slightly superior. Reaper openings are also good, but i find most of the time i can get the information i need without them, with sending out multiple scvs to do delayed scouts. Reaper opening gives you more knowledge but less units, so it's kind of a stylistic choice.
As for the TvZ issues: In general, zerg has 2 attacks they can do at 11 min. There is a pure roach timing with 1/1, or a roach/ling/bane timing with 1/1 melee. The indication of both is no gas or one gas only on the third base, and if you see this it doesn't hurt to build 2-3 tanks before mines, as it's good against both options. If zerg goes macro roach/hydra, then you will be able to tell with your 11 min. medivac poke and can build enough tanks to hold off a 2/2 timing.
I agree proxy 10 gates can be held with 14cc as long as they are not too close to you, I use my CC scv to check for very close gates. If you scout them in your base, 2 rax to wall of your mineral line and you are all set. Some people like to use depot at ramp as a spotter but i prefer to put the first depot to plug any holes in my mineral patches just in case of proxy 2 gate. If they are a bit further back you should be fine holding at the top of your ramp, (assuming you scout their main).
When I go cc-first I have a kind of flow chart in my head of every possible protoss cheese that can (and WILL more likely than not) hit you. Between building placement, bunker timings(I go 2nd bunker by 7 min), and marine placement (first 2 in bunker, next 6 in main mineral line, rest of them on ramp/natural) you can hold, a lot of cheese.
Early game aggression tvp has declined because any good protos can hold off mine drops if they know your are going gas and outright kill you with stalkers if your go hellions. I think the early stim timings are the best bet. See hack vs crank and hack vs hero for some recent VODs of early aggression vs protoss. Also note, that they do not put you in a great spot economically which is why I prefer cc first. If you can land the same mine drops terrans were hitting months ago, its an easy win. But you are relying on protoss not scouting early or them forgetting how to defend mine drops.
I think 1-1-1 builds also might be the safest build against one base protos aggression because seige tank can pop out if you know protoss is one base.
I would love to see some replays of how you do that blocking of holes with depots and how you perform your 14cc build. Would you mind? I'm not questioning your skill, that's not why I ask. I like what you wrote. What league are you? I am also a CC first player
I'm only a diam player atm. I was in masters for a while when hots first came out cause wasn't everyone :p I can make a video of the same build going up against different openings. I have a lot of games against proxy gates, stargates and other shenanigans. But it makes sense because if the game goes long my build gives me a huge edge.
On October 20 2013 23:17 shadymmj wrote: Hey guys, this is probably a funny question but bear with me. It's not primarily about strategy but about ggtracker's reliability. So I am a casual player, skillwise I would frankly say diamond to low masters across T and P but I've never bothered pushing myself as I play mainly for fun. And my 85 apm average reflects that.
I uploaded a bunch of tvz replays and to my surprise ggtracker shows me consistently at 90 to 92 SQ across 4 base vs 4 base games (i.e. high grandmaster). Well obviously I am not a GM player let alone a high GM although I do have BW experience. Basically I make enough production to suit my income and I always play greedy, like 3CC kind of greedy. I am guilty of queuing stuff but very occasionally. Also my game sense is probably not too shabby.
Now I figured to myself, if my SQ is that good, then why am I not in masters (this season)? Surely a GM macro can power me to at least mid masters. No, I don't make stupid decisions.
Either that or GGtracker is broke.
About SQ.. SQ isn't = macro.. You can achieve high SQ while being supply blocked or by queueing units both of which are macro mistakes. Having high SQ while not getting supply blocked and not queueing units AND making the right stuff at the right time = good macro.
Against mech, I usually try to play off one engi and 3 barracks-> third cc before getting my 4th and 5th rax. My question is whether pure bio or bio/mech is stronger vs mech? I have a lot of trouble playing vs mech... It's hard to drop because they leave like 1 tank in their main and have rings of turrets and sensor towers too, and they always have vikings to snipe my medivacs. Do I just wait outside his base and prevent him from moving out?
On October 21 2013 05:06 WonDeRSC wrote: Against mech, I usually try to play off one engi and 3 barracks-> third cc before getting my 4th and 5th rax. My question is whether pure bio or bio/mech is stronger vs mech? I have a lot of trouble playing vs mech... It's hard to drop because they leave like 1 tank in their main and have rings of turrets and sensor towers too, and they always have vikings to snipe my medivacs. Do I just wait outside his base and prevent him from moving out?
I agree with getting more rax rather than double engi vs mech, you need the unit count. I haven't seen any pro using pure bio vs mech in a long time, the style atm is to go bio+tank which gives you more positional power. About dropping, once the mech player has a turret ring up the only drop option really available is a doom drop which can be quite strong if he's out of position. If you see his vikings are at the front go for this drop and when he pulls his army attack his 3rd with the rest of your army if it's vulnerable or drop over his tanks at his front if he sends his vikings back to defend(which he probably will). Finally if he's really turtling strongly on 3 base you can just contain him, but you'll need sensor towers and turrets for that since he will have air dominance. Then just out-expand him and tech to air.
On October 20 2013 09:09 KingofGods wrote: A lot of the times the +1 is just because the terran is already going to build the quick ebay as a precaution against dts or oracles and so they might as well upgrade +1 as well. In either of your builds you mentioned, you really have to hit BEFORE those timings because protoss are so greedy these days they will have 1 or sometimes 2 collosi when that attack hits.
3 rax allows you to have a bigger hit squad when you hit early and force out photon overcharge. This is right around the time when protoss don't have a lot of units and you can usually snipe a couple sentries along with a bunch of probes.
Going the early +1 route isn't really about the +1, stim, 2-4 medivac timing. It's really about starting the upgrade early so you can hit a +1/+1 timing and then later a +2/+2 timing with scv pull if you choose.
I usually 100% disagree with your posts so I want to say that I don't 100% disagree with this. You are right in what you say about 3 rax allowing a bigger bio count but wrong in how the +1 route is not at all about the stim/med timing. You are right about possible scv pulls being good off this opening (though the +1/+1 and +2/+1 are the common timings not the +2/+2). You are very correct in how you talk about the pre med timings and how photon overcharge interacts with such timings.
The fast +1 build is about combining a reaper (scouting) with the ability to strongly react to that scouting (turrets and +1) while still teching very fast in many ways. The real point is give yourself so much strong information on what the Protoss is not capable of doing so that you can completely focus in on a much smaller subset of possible enemy types. Possible followup sets of logic that are created for the Terran include:
The +1 allows for a smaller barracks count and faster factory/starport tech while still getting a decent damage output out with the bio that is made.
The fast eng bay allows for very fast turrets vs Stargate and DT play. This means that the reaper can scout a proxy oracle and react to it and prevent a punishment of a smaller barracks/marine count at the early stages of the game. You can be getting a fast tech lab, reactor, stim, +1 (in some combination) and have the defense that holds vs an oracle with the smaller than normal marine count.
The very fast +1 can transition very quickly into the common +1/+1 or +2/+1 SCV timings that are being used alot these days. This allows for a reaction to quick robo style plays or slower safer robo plays.
In essence, yes, it is partially about turrets being available but thats not the real point. A better thesis of the fast eng build would be this:
The Reaper FE into a fast engineering bay into bio that has been popularized by player's such as Demuslim is a great way for players to open in TvP that are trying to open safely, strongly scout, and tech quickly. The play is strong due to a smaller marine count being shored up by the availability of turrets while the smaller bio count is strong due to the faster upgrades allowing increased cost efficiency. The scouting offered by the first barracks unit brings all of this together by providing the Terran player a tool with which to better eliminate possible plays that the Protoss might attempt.
How do you play TvZ these days? I used to play the innovation build, CC first into reactor hellions, wallin at natural then 3rd cc. But either I get totally outgreeded by a 3hatch b4 pool or I get baneling busted and even if I hold it with minimal loses, I´m even at best, oftentimes behind and then I have a hard time to put on enough pressure with bio mine before there are 20+mutas on the map. I´m getting really frustrated in the matchup, because I allways get outproduced in the early game and early midgame and then I fall behind massively.
EPT
