Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
On October 01 2013 08:25 JoeSchmoe wrote: Anyone know any good 1 base all-ins against toss? Most of the things I've tried basically gets wrecked by nexus cannon unless I go 1/1/1 with a raven mix for pdd.
You've pretty much answered your own question, which is why you're almost forced into 3 base play in TvP. There are a few pressure oriented openings you can try, such as gas first hellion / widow mine drop or 2 rax reaper, but they're really only to attempt to do damage vs greedy Protoss openings and transition into bio play.
Sucks that protoss can mix up a variety of all-ins while anything terran tries is negated with a F nexus click. I've been doing CC and reaper CC openings but I find that if I find that toss have become so good at deflecting multi-prong drops in mid game that I almost always lose the late game unless i snowball mid. oh wellz
On September 30 2013 22:20 SGilna wrote: Hello guys, I'm currently a gold level player playing terran (in plat though). The question which is always on my mind is that how do you macro? does it mean that spending all the income is macro? or producing the units or producing the 'right' units? getting the upgrades. I seldom get supply blocks and my average unspent resources is around 800ish~
Still after the 16min mark my income shot up to 2k-ish and I have no idea how to spend them.
Facts that I roughly read before: 50scvs ~ 10 min mark 3rd expo should be up by 9-12-ish depending on whether you're going on aggro Vs Z: 8 racks 2 fac 1 sp off of 3 bases Vs P: 8-9 racks 2 sp off 3 bases
Still I believe there is still loads of depth in macro-ing, can any kind soul enlighten me?
There's always something to improve in macro. For example, never having more than 1-2 units queued up in production - ideally queueing the second up just before the first is finished.
While at first making more supply depots than necessary is good, so you're never supply blocked, later on you want to make exactly as many supply depots as you need. That extra money means your barracks or CC is that much earlier and your build cleaner. Exceptions to this are when you want to wall off versus zerg/cheese, and a few other build-precise exceptions.
Gas timings, gas count, and scv saturation. You should know exactly when to add your gasses and how many gasses you're going for with your build. A good sign of well refined macro is when the gas is being utilized perfectly, upgrades starting right as they're able to and not too much gas floating. Even good players overlook this and continue mining lots of gas in the late-game when they could be taking scvs off of gas though at this point if you're banking minerals it isn't necessarily critical. SCV saturation - Transferring scvs is important, as is dropping mules at the right bases. If your main mines out too early, your mining isn't very efficient. Ideally you want to keep as many patches in your main and natural so that your'e constantly mining off of 3-base saturation. This is achieved by saturating new bases as soon as they're done by scv transfer, and/or saving energy/dropping mules at the new bases. Although if you're placing your new bases as soon as they're done the scv transfers probably aren't necessary to achieve this.
Oh and finally a basic point that many can improve on - building your buildings as soon as you have the money, and I mean in the less than 1 second when you have the money range ideally.
Ok thanks buddy. However after watching so many pro plays from streams and competition, I still have not grasp the timing of when to put down my 3rd and 4th gas against Z and when to throw down extra racks (meaning when I land my third should I already have 8 racks with rct on? or 8 racks with rcts on when I saturate my third, etc) and GMs or master players can do that by intuition or experience? I've been playing since WOL and I have not seen any improvements other than from promoting from silver to plat. I'm stuck at plat ever since.
On October 01 2013 07:26 Kuroud0 wrote: Anyone have a replay with the build for TvP with Hellbats, Marauders and Medivacs and in the late game with vikings and ghosts? I saw avilo doing it and seems nice to try.
Thank you!
He doesn't release Replays but he does have a guide up about it. It's the "Fantasy Build" or 4-4-4 (4 Hellbats, 4 Marauders, 4 Medivac)
It's more of a catch someone off guard then solo build but it's pretty good since it's a High HP and High Supply build. But it can get countered by 2 base Chargelot/Archon/ HT if you don't have prepare for it.
Ok thanks buddy. However after watching so many pro plays from streams and competition, I still have not grasp the timing of when to put down my 3rd and 4th gas against Z and when to throw down extra racks (meaning when I land my third should I already have 8 racks with rct on? or 8 racks with rcts on when I saturate my third, etc) and GMs or master players can do that by intuition or experience? I've been playing since WOL and I have not seen any improvements other than from promoting from silver to plat. I'm stuck at plat ever since.
The gas timings are build specific, and are the same every time. If you take a certain build and watch a few replays of the same pro executing that build you'll see him taking his gas pretty much the same time every game. For example when going CC first vs zerg you get 16 gas, then after you make a reactor for the factory you make a techlab on the rax and add another gas. Then +2 engibays, +2 rax and +2gas approximately at the same time. When you take your 3rd you get 1 gas there for a total of 5 gas. This is one variant that flash uses.
When you land your 3rd in TvZ you usually have 5 raxes, and you want to make reactors on them as soon as they finish, unless you missed your gas timing then delay the reactors for more important stuff (medivacs/upgrades). Then once you can afford it add 3 raxes/4th CC, the order of this depends on your preference and the way the game is progressing.
When I'm playing I have a general idea of how many raxes my bases can support and I add barracks/CCs based on that, so yes experience helps with it.
Try and find a replay where a pro player executes his build without interruption and take notes from that. Gas timings usually correlate to other things that you can remember them by.
Also keep in mind that the level of play has been rising, and also league requirements have recently increased so staying in platinum basically required constant improvement on your part.
On October 01 2013 08:25 JoeSchmoe wrote: Anyone know any good 1 base all-ins against toss? Most of the things I've tried basically gets wrecked by nexus cannon unless I go 1/1/1 with a raven mix for pdd.
You've pretty much answered your own question, which is why you're almost forced into 3 base play in TvP. There are a few pressure oriented openings you can try, such as gas first hellion / widow mine drop or 2 rax reaper, but they're really only to attempt to do damage vs greedy Protoss openings and transition into bio play.
Sucks that protoss can mix up a variety of all-ins while anything terran tries is negated with a F nexus click. I've been doing CC and reaper CC openings but I find that if I find that toss have become so good at deflecting multi-prong drops in mid game that I almost always lose the late game unless i snowball mid. oh wellz
See, your problem is that you're trying to play out late-game TvP xP And yeah I've been trying every kind of early-game all-in from the beginnings of WoL in custom games/unranked, and none of them are working...the 2 that seemed to find some headway were 11/11 proxied and the old reactor first 2rax, but I feel that's because most of them automatically assumed 15 gas reactor expand and never checked for a CC
For tvp you can go proxy 9/9/9 reaper with proxy factory and lift the factory to the edge the toss base. Widows mines can ruin their day and you can play it from here depending on how things went
On October 02 2013 02:58 Dunmer wrote: For tvp you can go proxy 9/9/9 reaper with proxy factory and lift the factory to the edge the toss base. Widows mines can ruin their day and you can play it from here depending on how things went
yeah that one works half-decently again, it was worthless for a while as every terran was doing it I guess. Ive tried playing lategame but its just impossible even when I proxy my third undetected up to 7 minutes before he attempts to take his. No point, just cheese all day long.
Is Mech viable in TvZ, the mines going to be nerfed and with the buff to mech/air i think practicing mech is going to be useful, if there is can you name it?
I'm currently a mid-plat player and I'm having some trouble in TvP, mainly the mid game. I would provide replays, but really it's a simple build that most people here will recognize upon reading a bit further - I haven't been able to beat it once, not on regular ghost timings.
The basic principle of the build, I've found to be, is a push at around 13-15 minutes with a whole bunch of chargelots + archons + storms, and it is usually preceded by DTs, or Oracles. I say 13-15 because the Diamond/Master players that have used it on me usually push out at that time. The timing down in Gold/Plat is usually 15-20 depending on how much harass I've done.
I usually get hit by this as my ghosts are coming out (or in most cases, still being built. T_T) with a regular ghost academy that follows 3rax medivacs, cc, rax rax.
I've asked the players that beat me how to counter this and they all say to just make ghosts. I get that. But, I'm scared of getting ghost academy before my 4th and 5th raxes only to get facerolled by Colls down the road.
Sounds like you aren't applying enough pressure prior to the push (delays for upgrades, eco, and ghost tech) and that you need better scouting to determine if it's colossus or templar coming out from him first.
Unless it's a 2 base chargelot+templar timing that you are referring to, and if that's the case it's not always possible to have ghosts out in time. In such a case, you need to delay taking (landing orbital) your third and turtle up at your nat hard until you have ghosts.
TvZ - I have no idea what to do. Everyone online says "OMG TvZ is so easy for Terran - Terran OP vs Zerg" and I just don't see it. I don't know how, I don't know why they think this, and I certainly can't play it that way. Hell - I can't play it so it's even.
They say harass. I try to harass but it seems Zergs know exactly what's coming. Either reaper, hellion, or banshee. It seems Queens shut down all of those.
This is what happens to me - every. freaking. game.
- I open reaper expand or CC first (builds I was advised were ideal to learn). - I try to harass with reaper get a few drone kills and expand. - I go to hellion, often I will kill a bunch of drones - eventually I'm forced out. - It is this point where things fall apart. I can't harass. Drops are stopped with ling/spore/spine/queen. - Zerg gets muta/bane. - Zerg harasses me. - Zerg runs the map while I defend. - I finally have enough to push out, Zerg has a huge army. - Zerg on the way to Hive - usually Ultras. - I'm stuck on 3 bases while Zerg owns the map and starts telling me what a noob I am.
So the question is...
What the hell do you do when your harass (which I gather is essential) fails? When your efforts are defended - and they're massing muta/ling/bane - what do you do? How the hell do you compete with that? I know I must just suck. I try split drops, splitting from banes, etc. but they just fly in with overseers and a huge ball of stuff and just smash me. Widowmines be damned - they just plow right over it all.
Yes, I'm in scrub league as Terran. I just don't know what to do. I get that I have to harass and slow their 3rd/4th - and try to keep them even on workers. Then what? What if that fails? They always have more stuff!
Christ, I suck so hard. I'm so frustrated right now.
People asked for replays, so I dug some up and I have 2 here. I don't expect people to watch them both because that'd probably just be painfully boring. I know it was hard for me to upload these because I play like crap and I'm embarrassed. There was a time (WoL) when I was not terrible at this game (different race) and now that I play HotS and Terran (change of pace) I'm beyond awful.
It's actually hard for me to verbalize how frustrated and powerless I feel with this game now. It quite honestly makes me feel unbelievably shitty and stupid. Which is absurd in it's own right. I just can't seem to improve - and aside from mechanics (which are crap) I just don't know what to improve.
I was a diamond level player (again, different race) and now I'd be lucky if I was gold.
My issue with Zerg is that they just get too big. I lose almost every engagement - whether it's an early skirmish or a huge battle late game. They just always have more, and essentially overwhelm me. I think my issues are the following:
1. Awful build order. Poor execution, poor choice of B/O, or both. I don't want to cheese so I've opted for learning a CC first or Reaper FE. Lately I've been going for a CC first since a few people have said it's "generally" a better option.
2. Getting contained. A few games I get contained by early pressure and I take a while to get out. Not sure what the solution to this is other than build better/faster.
3. Letting Zerg get massive. I can't harass Zerg for the life of me. My harass is (literally) laughed at. I think I've got a decent force to do early pressure and suddenly a billion lings swoop in and annihilate me - or they just run past me and destroy my expo.
4. Mines. Not enough, or terribad placement.
5. Micro. Awful (essentially, I'm a bad player).
6. Timing. My timing is probably off. Too early or too late on: drops, engineering bays, mines, mass rax production, etc.
7. Crappy mechanics overall. I recognize this and am working on it. This race is new to me and I've only been playing it about a month or so. I think it's likely that in a few situations I just need "more stuff."
Here I correctly identify a roach rush and defend - but then I let myself get contained. I saw in a Day9 episode where he talks about adding more CCs to boost your econ while contained - I do this but probably overkill and then sit back too long. I sit back so long because I'm worried about losing my entire army to that contain. I assume his army is bigger than mine and will continue to be bigger than mine. Then I'm stuck vs. a 5 base Zerg and it's a joke. My mistake in my opinion, is a lack of aggression - but that comes from the fear of having that aggression fail - which is what generally happens.
Again, I am too passive. I try some hellion harass but it fails miserably. At this point I know he has way more lings than I can handle, as well as a baneling nest and spire. I sit back thinking "I have to defend the ling/bane/muta push" but it never comes. By the time I realize "I need to expand or push" it's too late. He's massive. My timing is garbage.
Putting my obvious shortcomings in mechanics aside I guess I can sum it all up with the following questions:
1. How and when are you aggressive vs a Zerg that isn't rushing you? 2. What do you look for to see if a Zerg wants to rush? I assume it's drone count. 3. Are mines really the go-to unit with bio? (I know I may just suck with them). 4. How do you deal with counters at your expansions? 5. When do you take your third? (Assuming no 2 base all-in from the Zerg). 6. When do you focus on upgrades? 7. How do you harass a Zerg that seems to have limitless lings/banes, and to a lesser extent, mutas?
Sorry if this is too broad a post for this thread. If so, I guess I can move it to the SC2 Strategy section. I just figured my frustrations may help others here.
@Mjolnir: Hey, I notice an overall lack of order in your build, especially on that second game.
You can get your hellions out alot earlier. Your first Hellion push-out in game 2 was at 9:13ish, where, if you had a more defined BO you could be pushing out with Hellions + Mines + 2 Medivacs + Marines at 11~ while still having a third cc being built.
The way I see it, you can follow cc rax gas into 2 kinds of medivac pushes that won't leave you behind. I got both of these builds from watching Maru games, though lately he has been using the second variant, as it still lets you push out early as hell, and put some pressure on the fourth/third.
1) cc rax gas fact rax rax starport
2) cc rax gas fact cc rax rax star (This is the one I use most often, I've included the most recent game I've seen Maru use it.)
Note: He doesn't open CC first, opting for double reapers instead, regardless, notice his pushout timings, while still paying close attention to his build order. You'll see a nice 11ish minute pushout after he starts his third CC.
The first variant, though, can bust a zerg third. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was designed to bust zerg thirds, as every pro I've seen use cc rax gas rax rax has always gone for a bust followed by a third.
TvZ CC first has a couple ways of getting to the 11 minute timing and depending on what youwant to do will depend on how early your upgrades are. For instance if you go the Poltesk build with more of a map control theme behind your build then your upgrades will be a little delayed. If you go a normal 3CC build with economy as a center of your build then 6:45-7:00 is when you drop your 2 Ebays.....
Im playing around with avilos hellbat marauder build and it seems pretty decent. At least better than the shitty wolstyle I was trying (and failing with).
TvZ - I have no idea what to do. Everyone online says "OMG TvZ is so easy for Terran - Terran OP vs Zerg" and I just don't see it. I don't know how, I don't know why they think this, and I certainly can't play it that way. Hell - I can't play it so it's even.
They say harass. I try to harass but it seems Zergs know exactly what's coming. Either reaper, hellion, or banshee. It seems Queens shut down all of those.
This is what happens to me - every. freaking. game.
- I open reaper expand or CC first (builds I was advised were ideal to learn). - I try to harass with reaper get a few drone kills and expand. - I go to hellion, often I will kill a bunch of drones - eventually I'm forced out. - It is this point where things fall apart. I can't harass. Drops are stopped with ling/spore/spine/queen. - Zerg gets muta/bane. - Zerg harasses me. - Zerg runs the map while I defend. - I finally have enough to push out, Zerg has a huge army. - Zerg on the way to Hive - usually Ultras. - I'm stuck on 3 bases while Zerg owns the map and starts telling me what a noob I am.
So the question is...
What the hell do you do when your harass (which I gather is essential) fails? When your efforts are defended - and they're massing muta/ling/bane - what do you do? How the hell do you compete with that? I know I must just suck. I try split drops, splitting from banes, etc. but they just fly in with overseers and a huge ball of stuff and just smash me. Widowmines be damned - they just plow right over it all.
Yes, I'm in scrub league as Terran. I just don't know what to do. I get that I have to harass and slow their 3rd/4th - and try to keep them even on workers. Then what? What if that fails? They always have more stuff!
Christ, I suck so hard. I'm so frustrated right now.
People asked for replays, so I dug some up and I have 2 here. I don't expect people to watch them both because that'd probably just be painfully boring. I know it was hard for me to upload these because I play like crap and I'm embarrassed. There was a time (WoL) when I was not terrible at this game (different race) and now that I play HotS and Terran (change of pace) I'm beyond awful.
It's actually hard for me to verbalize how frustrated and powerless I feel with this game now. It quite honestly makes me feel unbelievably shitty and stupid. Which is absurd in it's own right. I just can't seem to improve - and aside from mechanics (which are crap) I just don't know what to improve.
I was a diamond level player (again, different race) and now I'd be lucky if I was gold.
My issue with Zerg is that they just get too big. I lose almost every engagement - whether it's an early skirmish or a huge battle late game. They just always have more, and essentially overwhelm me. I think my issues are the following:
1. Awful build order. Poor execution, poor choice of B/O, or both. I don't want to cheese so I've opted for learning a CC first or Reaper FE. Lately I've been going for a CC first since a few people have said it's "generally" a better option.
2. Getting contained. A few games I get contained by early pressure and I take a while to get out. Not sure what the solution to this is other than build better/faster.
3. Letting Zerg get massive. I can't harass Zerg for the life of me. My harass is (literally) laughed at. I think I've got a decent force to do early pressure and suddenly a billion lings swoop in and annihilate me - or they just run past me and destroy my expo.
4. Mines. Not enough, or terribad placement.
5. Micro. Awful (essentially, I'm a bad player).
6. Timing. My timing is probably off. Too early or too late on: drops, engineering bays, mines, mass rax production, etc.
7. Crappy mechanics overall. I recognize this and am working on it. This race is new to me and I've only been playing it about a month or so. I think it's likely that in a few situations I just need "more stuff."
Here I correctly identify a roach rush and defend - but then I let myself get contained. I saw in a Day9 episode where he talks about adding more CCs to boost your econ while contained - I do this but probably overkill and then sit back too long. I sit back so long because I'm worried about losing my entire army to that contain. I assume his army is bigger than mine and will continue to be bigger than mine. Then I'm stuck vs. a 5 base Zerg and it's a joke. My mistake in my opinion, is a lack of aggression - but that comes from the fear of having that aggression fail - which is what generally happens.
Again, I am too passive. I try some hellion harass but it fails miserably. At this point I know he has way more lings than I can handle, as well as a baneling nest and spire. I sit back thinking "I have to defend the ling/bane/muta push" but it never comes. By the time I realize "I need to expand or push" it's too late. He's massive. My timing is garbage.
Putting my obvious shortcomings in mechanics aside I guess I can sum it all up with the following questions:
1. How and when are you aggressive vs a Zerg that isn't rushing you? 2. What do you look for to see if a Zerg wants to rush? I assume it's drone count. 3. Are mines really the go-to unit with bio? (I know I may just suck with them). 4. How do you deal with counters at your expansions? 5. When do you take your third? (Assuming no 2 base all-in from the Zerg). 6. When do you focus on upgrades? 7. How do you harass a Zerg that seems to have limitless lings/banes, and to a lesser extent, mutas?
Sorry if this is too broad a post for this thread. If so, I guess I can move it to the SC2 Strategy section. I just figured my frustrations may help others here.
Thanks in advance!
Just a sidenote first. I think people are right to tell you that CC First is better than a Reaper Expand against Zerg, at least in your case (for me as well, but that doesn't matter here). Reaper Expand is a lot more micro and multitasking intensive. I suck at that and, if your mechanics aren't too well either, you shouldn't use an opening that relies heavily on them either.
Yes, people say Bio/Mine is THE way to play TvZ, but that's either because their mechanics are good enough to pull it off or just because the Top players do it and they think there's no other way. What keeps me in this game and my will to play up is the possibility to play like I want to. I'm at around the same level as you are and get my rear handed to me a lot, but I invent my own playstyle, my own strategies and build orders. I constantly change them, refine them, discard them and start again... learning what I can pull off when and what not. It makes kind of proud when you see a strategy work out really well, then it hits you hard when it's smashed into the ground by the next opponent. But you learn what you have to change and are proud, when it works out again. If you're sick of playing a style that doesn't fit you, just because others tell you that you should play that, then stop and do something else. Do your own thing. I don't play Bio/Mine even though my Clanmates always told me to, because I know my hands are too slow and my multitasking is too horrible to make it work. I play Mech with my very own BO and even some better mates were quite impressed, when they saw it, and said they'd take it into their repertoire. That is what keeps me playing and improving.
Now a little more specific to your questions although some may be answered already by the above or are more from a Mech play perspective. 1) If the Zerg didn't attack before, I usually play a 10 minute push with ~20 Marines, 4 Tanks and ~8 BF-Hellions. At that time he usually has a 3rd up, which I can kill. He has Mutas, but not too many so he can't just ignore the Marines. Anything on the ground can be dealt with quite well by that combination apart from a crapload of Roaches maybe. When you take out their 3rd and your attack is over, Zergs usually want to drone up hard, because they think there can't come too much more. So during that push I build up for some Hellbat drops (add Armory and Starport for Hellbats and Medivacs) and start them right after the push is over. This will hurt their eco even more and keep them from taking the whole map carelessly. Apart from killing their drones, it will make them invest into more defense. From here on it depends very much on the Zerg's reaction. Usually it's Hellbats (as mineral sink) with either Tanks or Thors or a mix of both with some Air support (usually Ravens). 2) As my opening gets Tanks early, there's quite much nothing to fear. I scout, if the Zerg expands early, and that's it. I wall my main first and then my natural as well. With a Bunker or two, a few Tanks and SCVs repairing behind a depot wall, you can hold nearly anything that a Zerg on your level can throw at you in the earlygame. Imo on our level you don't need to pin the Zerg on his exact strategy (not like you have to do in TvP with all their different early pressure builds). 3) As I play Mech, I can't really tell you too sure, but I find Mines too micro heavy. Hellbats are not, so you may want to try these instead. They eat any Ling/Bling and are healed by Medivacs as well. You may need more Marines as anti-air though. 4) Mech units are very powerfull. You can max out a Mech army on 3 bases quite well. So you don't have to care about counters, runbys or harass too much. As Mech is more gas-heavy you can make outer bases PFs instead of OCs (don't need so many MULEs) and you can build turret rings. Wall expansions in with depots. PFs and Depot walls can be used with Bio, too, to buy time for your quick Bio units to run in for the rescue. 5) I take the 3rd during my 10min push or the Hellbat drops. Anyways, while keeping the Zerg busy until I have it settled and defenses/walls are up. 6) Around the time, when I'm taking the 3rd, I start getting upgrades (if the 3rd gets blocked, don't forget to get upgrades still). 7) As long as there are few Mutas, Hellbat drops and/or Hellion runbys are great to kill drones. When going Mech, you don't need to harass that much. Even with Bio I'd argue that you shouldn't harass, if you can't do it (mechanically) or Zerg has too good defenses (Mutas, Spores, Spines) up. Keep your stuff together and push him hard instead of giving him full Medivacs for free.
Having a stupid amount of trouble with TvT, my reaper expand isn't working too well w/ the gas first -> banshee -> tank push anyone have a strong safe build that they're doing?
Ey, is mech the must-do in TvT now? i'm a Bio Fan, i open with the Taeja build ( Banshee ) but i don'tget much with the harrass, what do you recommend me, some bo? i would like to keep going bio, but...
On October 03 2013 15:23 Chaggi wrote: Having a stupid amount of trouble with TvT, my reaper expand isn't working too well w/ the gas first -> banshee -> tank push anyone have a strong safe build that they're doing?
What are you having trouble against, the same build? If you're losing because they shut down your banshee and you lose to a push you need to work on denying scouting (hiding tech) and banshee retention.
On October 03 2013 15:23 Chaggi wrote: Having a stupid amount of trouble with TvT, my reaper expand isn't working too well w/ the gas first -> banshee -> tank push anyone have a strong safe build that they're doing?
What are you having trouble against, the same build? If you're losing because they shut down your banshee and you lose to a push you need to work on denying scouting (hiding tech) and banshee retention.
Ah, I go reaper expand into 3 rax total w/ 2 with reactor and CS first. I've been using it since WoL which is pretty bad, but I've found that up until when Hellbats were super popular, it can hold pretty much every all in as long as I pull some SCVs, but w/ banshee coming faster and them being just super good, I found that I can't really hold the gas first banshee tank push. Just need a new build that can take me safely into the mid game because that's where I'm most confident in my TvT
EPT
