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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On September 30 2013 04:38 Whatson wrote: It's why nobody goes 1rax FE, it's either reaper FE or CC first. define nobody. I see pros still doing it a lot :o Anyways whats the reaper opener can someone link me to buildorder? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
On September 30 2013 04:38 Whatson wrote: It's why nobody goes 1rax FE, it's either reaper FE or CC first. I see a lot of them going 15 Reactor expand... | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 30 2013 06:04 Snusmumriken wrote: define nobody. I see pros still doing it a lot :o Anyways whats the reaper opener can someone link me to buildorder? Like who? I've watched a lot of TvP recently and I don't recall any 12 rax 12 gas reaper depot CC Alternatively, you can go reactor first instead of reaper first and get two reapers then 2 marines | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On September 30 2013 06:52 Whatson wrote: Like who? I've watched a lot of TvP recently and I don't recall any 12 rax 12 gas reaper depot CC Alternatively, you can go reactor first instead of reaper first and get two reapers then 2 marines Cheers. MMA did it at dreamhack for example. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 30 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote: Cheers. MMA did it at dreamhack for example. Which map? I'm guessing it was 4 spawns. Even though the OP is outdated the part about 1rax FE vP is still relevant. And reaper FE offers many more opportunities to scout. EDIT: or 15 gas reactor. I just find that a bit too middle ground for my tastes, but if I play a guy who normally cheeses I'll use that build just to be safe. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On September 30 2013 06:59 Whatson wrote: Which map? I'm guessing it was 4 spawns. Even though the OP is outdated the part about 1rax FE vP is still relevant. And reaper FE offers many more opportunities to scout. EDIT: or 15 gas reactor. I just find that a bit too middle ground for my tastes, but if I play a guy who normally cheeses I'll use that build just to be safe. I think Happy does it almost every TvP, always going for the WoL standard 1rax fe into 3rax 10 min pushout. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 30 2013 08:06 DJHelium wrote: I think Happy does it almost every TvP, always going for the WoL standard 1rax fe into 3rax 10 min pushout. Yeah you're right. I guess some pros just live with the risk of getting proxy oracled to death. I wonder why they don't prefer 14 CC then, better economically on 4 player maps than 1rax FE. | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On September 30 2013 08:49 Whatson wrote: Yeah you're right. I guess some pros just live with the risk of getting proxy oracled to death. I wonder why they don't prefer 14 CC then, better economically on 4 player maps than 1rax FE. Im obviously no pro, but i love 1 rax FE, its my go to build for a few reasons: 1st of all, I usually play 12 rax 14 depot-till-orange scout. It is information denial because you can still follow this up with 15 gas and protoss wouldn't be able to know assuming standard scout timing (also, he can't comfortably 3 nexus like some vs CC first, which is misery to play against). Secondly, unlike CC first I can ebay block if I scout greedy 1gas FE with no zealot. 3rd, I can react with 1 rax into 3 CC if i scout extreme greed or if i wish to play hazardously greedy myself. I've held proxy oracle, but i haven't played enough against it to know for sure how to deal with it vs a competent opponent... I have a few ideas like quick bunker in mineral line till turrets... but right now this is theorycrafting. And vs blink allin I just pull into my main, bunker up, and get medivacs ASAP. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
I build the 2nd CC on high-ground right next to the main CC to have less ground to cover. If I scout the P not expanding early I leave the 2nd CC there and rally SCVs to the main minerals until I'm sure that I can actually take the natural. Then it's just a matter of guessing the right 1-Base play from his gas, chrono usage and Gateway count. If I assume an Oracle, Bunker in the minerals and I'm usually fine. If it looks like DTs, immediate E-bay -> Turrets and save a few scans for worst case. I usually get a quick Factory+TL after the 2nd CC anyways, so I'm auto-countering Blink Stalkers. I certainly lose to 1-Base pushes too, but just because I react stupid, forget to macro or stuff like that, not because I'm surprised by an opening. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
I can't move out because he makes many zealots and Archons with Storm support. So frustrating. Going Ghosts from just 2 Base is not easy because you don't have enough gas. TvP is giving me headaches these days. So many allins or aggressive builds which can dominate you if you are at the same skill level. It seems so unfair. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On September 30 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote: Cheers. MMA did it at dreamhack for example. A lot of pros does it in tournaments with good results. However, I think that the WOL standard 1 rax FE into 2 additional rax with stim and +1 atk is only viable if the toss doesn't go for a 1 base all in. The mothership core made the toss all ins A LOT stronger. I haven't seen any games in HotS where Terran goes for 1 rax FE and survives against a blink stalker all in without pulling the expansion back into the main. It all began in the late stages of WOL on the map Cloud Kingdom which were insanely hard to hold a 1 base blink stalker all in on. Sure Antiga and Shakuras were hard as well but they had at least the expansion on a high ground and there were no mothership core. As long as you lift your expansion back into the main and build a few bunkers you really should be fine against blink stalkers. It takes a few times to get use to it on every map but sooner or later you will be able to hold it  | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 30 2013 02:41 Snusmumriken wrote: I keep losing to blink stalker allins. Even when I scout it early and make 5 fucking bunkers. How do you defend those? Low masters terran. You don't want 5 bunkers, especially as half of them will remain empty or out of position; generally you want 2, maybe 3 at best on a grotesque map like Yeonsu. If you went 1 rax FE, your best bet is a 3 rax add-ons defence, i. e. building lab/reactor/lab with your first 100 gas, Concussive with the next 50, constant Marauder production on the 2 lab rax, stim as soon as you can afford it, slowly teching towards Medivacs while defending his agressive attempts. Feel free to cut Marauder production to get faster Medivacs if you scout Protoss expanding; be sure to leave a SCV on the map to scout this, since actually the main threat of a Blink Stalker not-even-all-in is Protoss expanding and chronoing tech/Probes capitalizing on the fact you're contained until Medivacs, rather than the actual attack. If you're losing to the attack part, you're actually "only" at the first stage of the difficulty. Encouraging, eh? For VODs/future replays, check MMA vs TAiLS, Derelict Watcher, WCS Europe. You can check the Bel'shir Vestige game as well, though it's a 2-bases variant from memory. Maru did it out of a Reaper expand, but you can also watch Maru vs PartinG, Polar Night, WCS Korea for an example of 3 rax add-ons defence (keep in mind that you have to bring some SCVs as a buffer if you want to go down a ramp before Medivacs against a Protoss expanding and cutting units, otherwise Time Warp will turn your attempt into a complete fiasco). On September 30 2013 04:38 Whatson wrote: It's why nobody goes 1rax FE, it's either reaper FE or CC first. 1 rax FE is not completely extinct, someone like Happy uses it every game and MMA plays it quite frequently too. It can hold proxy Oracle as you should have your 6th Marine just in time, but due to the weaker econ (compared with CC first) you'll probably have a harder time if you're facing a 3gS all-in afterwards. Overall the opening has decreased in popularity because it's too middle-of-the-ground; you have neither the scouting possibilities of a Reaper expand, nor the economic punch of a CC first. That being said, as it has been pointed out, it does have some advantages over CC first, i. e. the possibility to EB block against a Protoss skipping Zealot, and a much better game against proxy Gate(s). On September 30 2013 18:56 TurboMaN wrote: How do you play vs 2 base Storm rush in TvP when you have gone for a fast 3rd? I can't move out because he makes many zealots and Archons with Storm support. So frustrating. Going Ghosts from just 2 Base is not easy because you don't have enough gas. TvP is giving me headaches these days. So many allins or aggressive builds which can dominate you if you are at the same skill level. It seems so unfair. Define fast third? Do you mean you went triple OC or simply 3 rax third after Medivacs in base? Anyway, make sure to wall your natural as soon as you see he's going Zealots/Archons/Storm, build a few Bunkers behind, and send a 4 Marauder drop on the map to cancel any attempt of third behind his contain. Meanwhile, at home, prepare 2-3 Ghosts and keep harassing his force with a small group of Marauders, retreating to your wall as soon as Zealots charge them. Eventually, after a few years, bored by the constant stream of Marauder shots and longing for the sight of Aiur, his troops might leave. | ||
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SGilna
Singapore27 Posts
Still after the 16min mark my income shot up to 2k-ish and I have no idea how to spend them. Facts that I roughly read before: 50scvs ~ 10 min mark 3rd expo should be up by 9-12-ish depending on whether you're going on aggro Vs Z: 8 racks 2 fac 1 sp off of 3 bases Vs P: 8-9 racks 2 sp off 3 bases Still I believe there is still loads of depth in macro-ing, can any kind soul enlighten me? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
http://day9.tv/d/Day...mouse-movement/ http://day9.tv/d/Day...ning-mechanics/ http://day9.tv/d/Day...ay-mechanics-2/ | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On September 30 2013 22:20 SGilna wrote: Hello guys, I'm currently a gold level player playing terran (in plat though). The question which is always on my mind is that how do you macro? does it mean that spending all the income is macro? or producing the units or producing the 'right' units? getting the upgrades. I seldom get supply blocks and my average unspent resources is around 800ish~ Still after the 16min mark my income shot up to 2k-ish and I have no idea how to spend them. Facts that I roughly read before: 50scvs ~ 10 min mark 3rd expo should be up by 9-12-ish depending on whether you're going on aggro Vs Z: 8 racks 2 fac 1 sp off of 3 bases Vs P: 8-9 racks 2 sp off 3 bases Still I believe there is still loads of depth in macro-ing, can any kind soul enlighten me? There's always something to improve in macro. For example, never having more than 1-2 units queued up in production - ideally queueing the second up just before the first is finished. While at first making more supply depots than necessary is good, so you're never supply blocked, later on you want to make exactly as many supply depots as you need. That extra money means your barracks or CC is that much earlier and your build cleaner. Exceptions to this are when you want to wall off versus zerg/cheese, and a few other build-precise exceptions. Gas timings, gas count, and scv saturation. You should know exactly when to add your gasses and how many gasses you're going for with your build. A good sign of well refined macro is when the gas is being utilized perfectly, upgrades starting right as they're able to and not too much gas floating. Even good players overlook this and continue mining lots of gas in the late-game when they could be taking scvs off of gas though at this point if you're banking minerals it isn't necessarily critical. SCV saturation - Transferring scvs is important, as is dropping mules at the right bases. If your main mines out too early, your mining isn't very efficient. Ideally you want to keep as many patches in your main and natural so that your'e constantly mining off of 3-base saturation. This is achieved by saturating new bases as soon as they're done by scv transfer, and/or saving energy/dropping mules at the new bases. Although if you're placing your new bases as soon as they're done the scv transfers probably aren't necessary to achieve this. Oh and finally a basic point that many can improve on - building your buildings as soon as you have the money, and I mean in the less than 1 second when you have the money range ideally. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Kuroud0
18 Posts
Thank you! | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On October 01 2013 08:25 JoeSchmoe wrote: Anyone know any good 1 base all-ins against toss? Most of the things I've tried basically gets wrecked by nexus cannon unless I go 1/1/1 with a raven mix for pdd. You've pretty much answered your own question, which is why you're almost forced into 3 base play in TvP. There are a few pressure oriented openings you can try, such as gas first hellion / widow mine drop or 2 rax reaper, but they're really only to attempt to do damage vs greedy Protoss openings and transition into bio play. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On October 01 2013 10:08 Pursuit_ wrote: You've pretty much answered your own question, which is why you're almost forced into 3 base play in TvP. There are a few pressure oriented openings you can try, such as gas first hellion / widow mine drop or 2 rax reaper, but they're really only to attempt to do damage vs greedy Protoss openings and transition into bio play. Gas-first Widow Mine drop is an excellent way to open if you suspect your opponent is playing greedy or know they're a player who likes to open greedy. Taeja often gets away with things like superfast Mine drops on Whirlwind because Protosses like to open Gate -> Nexus -> Core on that map, which leaves a gaping hole of vulnerability to a gas-first Mine build if executed crisply. In particular if you're a high-Masters/GM player who stands a reasonable chance of facing the same opponents on a more or less regular basis, I would highly recommend putting an aggressive opener or two into the arsenal so your blind CC-first into quick 3OC isn't expected all the time. Players like Taeja and MVP win many games because they can make any situation work and open in any way they want, forcing opponents to stay honest more often than not. | ||
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