EPT
I feel the strongest followup to 2rax is to pull all scvs and end it right then and there.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 167
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
|
krooked
376 Posts
I feel the strongest followup to 2rax is to pull all scvs and end it right then and there. | ||
|
Taranok
United States33 Posts
| ||
|
Whatson
United States5357 Posts
| ||
|
Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 03 2013 07:27 Taranok wrote: What is a good build versus a random player until you can scout? 12rax 12gas reaper expand, going into reactor fact 3cc vZ, reaper reactor FE vP and whatever feels comfortable based on what you scout vT. | ||
|
dohgg
310 Posts
Now my point, is that i just cant scout it, because theres is no indications till the very moment when the units pop. There are 2 gases at the 3rd like any standard builds and as i said, the drone count is super fine. The roach max for example, the zerg supplies jumps so high from 100 to max only on one and half minutes. I know how to stop it (bunker, tanks) but i have no idea how to scout it. my hellions get denied by queens, creep and bunch of speedlings or might even be 3 to 4 "Safe Roaches" | ||
|
Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
On September 03 2013 09:08 dohgg wrote: Hello guys, i have been struggling quite hard vs 3 base zerg allins, either roach max, roach bane 12 min, bane allin 12 min. these allins are coming from 3 base with great economy (i call them allins eventho the drone count usually stands on 65). Now my point, is that i just cant scout it, because theres is no indications till the very moment when the units pop. There are 2 gases at the 3rd like any standard builds and as i said, the drone count is super fine. The roach max for example, the zerg supplies jumps so high from 100 to max only on one and half minutes. I know how to stop it (bunker, tanks) but i have no idea how to scout it. my hellions get denied by queens, creep and bunch of speedlings or might even be 3 to 4 "Safe Roaches" medvac scout id say | ||
|
Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:17 Marathi wrote: After trying to improve my TvZ and macro games in general I am just not enjoying it as much as I did initially. So regarding this I am going to go back to 11/11 in TvZ as I used to in WoL with an allin style follow-up. In HotS what is a good follow-up for the 11/11? I want something I can win quite quickly with and will be safe and flexible to pressure from the zerg. After talking to a clanmate we came to the conclusion of: Kill/deny hatch Contain zerg in main with bunkers Take expo in own nat and make rax wall off Tech into mine drop (deny mining on single mining base) then tech into marine/tank/banshee(or medivac depending on AA) push off 2 bases. Tanks provide safety vs roaches/banes/hydras. Marines vs mutas. Keep eye out for nydus as this common reaction in WoL. Maybe it might be worth skipping the mine drop to get tanks out in time for any sort of bust, what do you think? I am just not very motivated to improve macro games atm and just want to have fun when I get the opportunity to play and to be able to play as many games as possible in that time, I find it really frustrating to put 20-40 mins of my time into a game only to lose :< I have been all-inning TvT since beginning of HotS as I HATE lategame TvT the most and I am doing the 11min (or so) SCV pull in TvP as lategame TvP is also very hard. So it just seemed like the easier thing to do and carry this over into TvZ as well. Ultimately its your choice, but i strongly suggest that you don't 11/11 every game. If you want to improve your macro whilst putting on a ton of pressure, give this build a whirl: . Its CC first, but you throw down +2 rax at 5:30, along with the second gas, get an ebay at 6~, SP at 7:30 (and gas 3), and do a push with your first two medivacs, a bunch of marines and 8 hellions from the standard-timed factory. No, its not the best build in a Bo3, but its stronger vs certain allins, gives you a ton of pressure and quicker drops, and is really good at punishing blind greed from Zerg  | ||
|
Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 03 2013 04:31 krooked wrote: ^ Why don't just 3rax mule drop all in or something if you hate all matchups? I feel the strongest followup to 2rax is to pull all scvs and end it right then and there. I remember that build...it was such great practice for stutter-step micro lol If you really want to do an all-in, just pull all your SCVs and go for it, I guarantee the game won't last longer than 7 minutes. | ||
|
Riggins
United States9 Posts
On September 03 2013 01:54 iAmJeffReY wrote: Or 15 gas 2 marine -> reactor -> FE -> 2nd gas -> fac -> starport marine + raven to be safe against any banshee play, then swap fac onto tech lab, start tanks, get 2 vikings with the raven, drop 2 more raxes double tech lab for stim/cs Do a 2 base 3-1-1 push with raven, vikings, tanks, and marines with a few medics. Very safe build. As long as you react right, you will have the raven out ~ the time they get cloak in your base. So, in this build do I make a techlab on the factory as soon as it finishes and when I start the starport? Just like a normal banshee build? Given I am making a reactor, and a second gas, wont my factory be delayed? This would imply the starport is delayed as well. Maybe not to much, like 5-10 seconds? The real question is, will that delay be short enough that the raven pops out before the banshee arrives? After all, it doesn't have to get started at the same time since we aren't flying it to the enemys base (yet). Seems like I have to build a tech lab on the factory, switch it to the start port, make a raven, then switch it back to make tanks. Right? Any chance you have a pointer to a reply showing this? =) Maybe some pro match for reference? Thanks! EDIT: Just notice the "FE" in your build order. This will definitely delay the raven. In silver league right now the prevailing winds are one base aggression. Any fast expands are tough to hold. You better be mighty good with your micro on your two marines against the other guys 8 and 2 tanks. Or his 2 banshees picking on you while he prepares his 8 marine followup at 6:30 minutes (taeja style) or 2 tanks, 12 marines, 2 banshees, and 8 scvs (brent style) at 830. | ||
|
jarod
Romania766 Posts
BO: 1.supply depot, 2.refinery (when start send scv out, make sure toss does not see it), 3. barack(when is done start factory and after OC - OC will be delayed with like 10s, if they have a probe start a marine on the factory so they think you are making reaper.. at that point you will need like 12 more gas for reaper.. when you have the gas cancel the marine and start the reaper), 4.factory(after you started factory start the first reaper, when factory is done make sure you start the widow mine right away), 5.OC 6.2nd supply depot. 7.CC (start you CC before your 3rd supply depot) If your factory got scouted just continue building it, mines is still strong.. they will have detection faster and they will not try to take natural.. they won`t come down with the stalker, waiting for you to go up. You can try to poke with your reaper and run up with your mine.. but if you don`t succed just cancel your 2nd mine and make faster CC and add tech lab for marauder. You are still ahead. From here make a total of 3 reapers and 2 mines.. depending on case. At around 27 food you can make CC down. I am pretty bad mid and late game vs toss, but with this build I can delay the protoss 2nd base... so I go in mid and late game with an advantage and can easily win the game from there. They need detection, canon, oracle(vision) or observers.. these are all later then your opening. As a follow up you can do 3 more racks(you need fast units, so you cannot waste time with more then 1 addon per barack), take 2nd gas and start your starport since your factory is already done. You can use your factory to scout after your mines are killed/pushed back. If the protoss decide to all in you have enough units from the 4 racks, especially cause they will more likely make stalker asap for the mines. If he is expanding, you are way ahead and your medivac push will hurt him even more. What happened to me... if they have delayed observer path.. continue making mines and win the game right away.. they will have 1 max 2 stalker if they are carefull.. .kite them with the reapers and step forward with your mines in hes mineral lines. Make sure that you leave marines in your mineral line or make some turrets. If you see he is going Oracle tech never make more then 3 reapers. Start making marines asap. Thoughts on the build? | ||
|
jarod
Romania766 Posts
| ||
|
PPN
France248 Posts
Another issue is that I'm not sure I understand how mines are supposed to delay 2nd base apart from forcing detection (going robo or stargate before nexus instead of the other way around) since protoss could very well keep his stalkers up the ramp and scout/sacrifice a probe down and bring another one to build 2nd Nexus if he knows there is only a mine or 2. Mines don't hit buildings. Also oracle opener could very well kill you on the spot, especially if proxied and chronoboosted. I think you're underestimating how fast it can be. | ||
|
Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
The oracle opener will hit after this build even if its the earliest oracle possible and the reaper will kill all the probes if it is that build. Then you have enough time to react and build a ebay/turret while still sending the mine into the now defenseless mineral line. Any other oracle opening will hit later and be scouted because of the reaper. | ||
|
Striker.superfreunde
Germany1120 Posts
Or, do you want your hellbats to do as much dmg as possible or tank as long as possible? Edit: If you play bio | ||
|
PPN
France248 Posts
I assume you're scouting with your first reaper, so either you don't know yet if protoss took his 2nd gas, or you're looking blindly for proxy in which case even if you find it you cannot destroy the pylon powering the stargate in time with only a reaper, or worst you don't find it at all and you get in late in protoss base and gets chased away immediatly by the first stalker. | ||
|
Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
For a slightly more aggressive illustration of this concept, check out the Supernova/Trap series from WCS KR S2. He goes proxy Rax Reaper (with a 2nd Rax for defense at home), then proxy Factory as he expands. | ||
|
Marathi
298 Posts
On September 03 2013 12:47 Sajaki wrote: Ultimately its your choice, but i strongly suggest that you don't 11/11 every game. If you want to improve your macro whilst putting on a ton of pressure, give this build a whirl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4XkY56yDBo. Its CC first, but you throw down +2 rax at 5:30, along with the second gas, get an ebay at 6~, SP at 7:30 (and gas 3), and do a push with your first two medivacs, a bunch of marines and 8 hellions from the standard-timed factory. No, its not the best build in a Bo3, but its stronger vs certain allins, gives you a ton of pressure and quicker drops, and is really good at punishing blind greed from Zerg I'll check that build out, doesn't sound like it would be too great vs early roaches, but most other things would probably die to it. I'll also try some 11/11 games and pulling my SCVs after I deny/kill the nat and see how that goes. But do you think that expand > marine/tank/banshee(or medivac) would work well? | ||
|
Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
My fav strategy that I've been practicing is what polt does in his TvZ matches. Its a Safe and aggressive build and gets you a lot of advantages to expand and to continue pressure. Day 9 has an extensive review of this build which in of itself is amazing IMO. The Order at which you build things is SOOOOOO important and there are a few judgment calls you have to make to maximize your effectiveness when using the build. Overall its really fun to play and pretty safe for a 3cc build. | ||
|
Whatson
United States5357 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Innovation went standard CC first, but he stayed on 2-bases, building his 3rd CC at 11:30. Instead of a faster 3rd CC he went for 2 additional rax (3 techlabs, 2 reactors), and started his ghost academy at 10:30 right after starting his +1 armor, and even before his armory started, which is entirely different from the metagame right now. When Hurricane's 1/1 chargelot archon timing hit, Innovation was only a few seconds away from having EMPs on his 5 ghosts. Has anybody seen/tried something like this before? I have no idea if this was merely reactionary play or if this will become a new style. | ||
|
Clarty
Australia162 Posts
On September 03 2013 16:37 Riggins wrote: So, in this build do I make a techlab on the factory as soon as it finishes and when I start the starport? Just like a normal banshee build? Given I am making a reactor, and a second gas, wont my factory be delayed? This would imply the starport is delayed as well. Maybe not to much, like 5-10 seconds? The real question is, will that delay be short enough that the raven pops out before the banshee arrives? After all, it doesn't have to get started at the same time since we aren't flying it to the enemys base (yet). Seems like I have to build a tech lab on the factory, switch it to the start port, make a raven, then switch it back to make tanks. Right? Any chance you have a pointer to a reply showing this? =) Maybe some pro match for reference? Thanks! EDIT: Just notice the "FE" in your build order. This will definitely delay the raven. In silver league right now the prevailing winds are one base aggression. Any fast expands are tough to hold. You better be mighty good with your micro on your two marines against the other guys 8 and 2 tanks. Or his 2 banshees picking on you while he prepares his 8 marine followup at 6:30 minutes (taeja style) or 2 tanks, 12 marines, 2 banshees, and 8 scvs (brent style) at 830. Yes, techlab goes on factory to swap to starport, similar to if you rush a banshee. Reactor and taking your gas at 15 delays your factory a bit compared to a straight 1/1/1 but you get the faster expand to compensate. Generally Raven pops at around 7:30 which means you have to save a couple of scans for the first banshee if they went gas first. Getting a widow mine out of your idle factory while the raven is building helps a lot too vs banshees. Still after that holding further banshees is a breeze and you have heaps of marines (around 12 at 7:00). After the raven you can just build vikings off naked starport while you use the tech lab for tanks. I'm only diamond but in my playing around with the build its basically impossible to lose to one base aggression unless you stuff up your micro badly. | ||
| ||
