EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 165
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
On August 31 2013 17:11 A Wild Sosd wrote: When going CC first in TvP when should I be throwing down a scan? Because I feel like I'm dying to alot of oracles and I need to scout more and the first SCV cant really tell me if it is a stargate or not. You should never die to oracle harass, since you can just pull your SCVs, wait for oracle to run out of energy then go back to mining. It is very difficult to read a oracle build, as long as the toss has 2 early gas, then you need to expect oracle. If there is no third pylon in their base, it's likely proxy so expect it at 5.30 If early oracle hits, the most important thing is to keep your marines together until you have 6. If you start losing groups of 4-5 marines to oracles, then you are in trouble. | ||
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LiLSighKoh
United States588 Posts
On August 31 2013 17:21 Lock0n wrote: You should never die to oracle harass, since you can just pull your SCVs, wait for oracle to run out of energy then go back to mining. It is very difficult to read a oracle build, as long as the toss has 2 early gas, then you need to expect oracle. If there is no third pylon in their base, it's likely proxy so expect it at 5.30 If early oracle hits, the most important thing is to keep your marines together until you have 6. If you start losing groups of 4-5 marines to oracles, then you are in trouble. Even more so you can clearly tell they are teching if it's 3 in gas instead of the normal 2, so it's easier to spot cheese if you see 3 in each gas so early. | ||
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On August 31 2013 22:23 A Wild Sosd wrote: How should I deal with carriers? I know its a very rare occurance but I don't think I've ever beaten someone going mass carriers. I make viking but I can never seem to get to that big amount I need to deal with them. BC's? I'd think tempests would destroy them and marines melt to them as well. What should I be making? I think kiting with vikings is the best option.... it's the only way I ever beat them. That or clear their ground units and mass a rediculous amount of marines to clear intercepters fast, and just target down as many as possible. I'm curious as well what is BEST...but I always go vikings | ||
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On August 31 2013 17:11 A Wild Sosd wrote: When going CC first in TvP when should I be throwing down a scan? Because I feel like I'm dying to alot of oracles and I need to scout more and the first SCV cant really tell me if it is a stargate or not. SCV will tell you what gas he's taken and whether or not he's got 3 Pylons in his base (if you time your scout correctly). On a 4-player map especially, he won't be able to place a proxy Oracle correctly until he scouts you, so if you see a Probe that instantly leaves the base and you see double gas, start checking for proxies, first. If he went expand at all, you can take your time trying to identify his build, as that will set back Oracle arrival time by at least a minute and a half. Your plan should be the following: 1. Check gas and pylons and units. If there is no Stalker, double gas, and only 2 pylons, it's fast proxy Oracle. In this case, all Marines to the mineral line and get Turrets when you can afford the E-bay. Scout carefully for a 3-gate + Stargate allin to follow and build extra defense as necessary. If you see a more normal count (1 Stalker, 3 Pylons, no MSC, no expand), it might just be normal Stargate or something else. 2. If you haven't seen proxy Stargate, put 1 Marine in the front Bunker, then rally everything else close to your main mineral line, favouring the side closest to dead space air entry for Oracles. Once you have 6 there, rally to the natural and put 6 Marines in that mineral line. 3. Consider scanning his base if you still have no idea as to his expansion timing (or not), as a 3-gate proxy robo attack hits late but super powerful. Obviously here if you see critical tech like Twilight/DTs/Robo Bay it's obviously not straight Oracle play; move on. 4. If no Oracles have shown up by 7:30 and you haven't scouted anything else about his plan, you can probably bring most things back to your front, as delayed Oracle harass is actually really really bad (spending money later on Stargate units that can't defend your 10:00 poke is a not-so-good situation). Basically, you assume Oracle/MSC harass until proven otherwise, and account for it by good positioning, NOT by drastic rearrangement of your build and multiple wasted Scans. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On September 01 2013 00:39 iaguz wrote: If you're vsing carriers, the solution is not "how do I kill these carriers" (mass vikings imo, if he has critical carrier mass then you're just done), it's more about "what did I fuck up in this game that let him go carriers comfortably." Who said comfortably? It can also simply be a long game. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 01 2013 01:58 Sissors wrote: Who said comfortably? It can also simply be a long game. I guess, but if he has the gas and the transition time to get into enough Carriers to pose a problem to a dedicated late-game Viking/Ghost army, something went wrong in there. For an illustration, check out Taeja's games versus Rain from WCS S2 Finals to see why there should never be a point where the opponent can just sit there and get 3 Stargates, a Fleet Beacon, 2 Cybercores, and chrono'ing 3-3 Air upgrades without you just walking over and saying "Hey, I have 30 Ghosts, 20 Vikings, and you have started getting rid of Colossi. LULZ target-fire + mass EMP/Snipe = ROFLstomp". | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On August 31 2013 22:38 iAmJeffReY wrote: I think kiting with vikings is the best option.... it's the only way I ever beat them. That or clear their ground units and mass a rediculous amount of marines to clear intercepters fast, and just target down as many as possible. I'm curious as well what is BEST...but I always go vikings I often find that marine/ghost/raven works very well against carriers as long as you can actually get in range of them. Ghosts for the accompanying HTs, if any, and if there aren't any then you can just EMP all over the carriers from a long range and then seekers/marines and a small number of vikings (like 15) can clean them up. Then, because the player with carriers can't really attack anything anywhere comfortably, you should have out-expanded them and can reinforce with maybe 20 marines at a time, to overrun them when they have to wait 120 seconds for another 3-4 carriers. Or if you lose you can fall back to your pre-prepared turret wall to kill all the interceptors with marine support until all the carriers die and then you overrun him. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On September 01 2013 02:14 Jazzman88 wrote: I guess, but if he has the gas and the transition time to get into enough Carriers to pose a problem to a dedicated late-game Viking/Ghost army, something went wrong in there. For an illustration, check out Taeja's games versus Rain from WCS S2 Finals to see why there should never be a point where the opponent can just sit there and get 3 Stargates, a Fleet Beacon, 2 Cybercores, and chrono'ing 3-3 Air upgrades without you just walking over and saying "Hey, I have 30 Ghosts, 20 Vikings, and you have started getting rid of Colossi. LULZ target-fire + mass EMP/Snipe = ROFLstomp". Season ago (or two) we had in WCS a fairly close TvP, with the toss going mass tempest. Granted not the same as carriers, but still. Personally I run often enough into toss air, but then again that is because I play mech. However in that case believe me it is a royal pita. For me tempests are pretty much impossible to counter and almost always autoloss. Carriers bit better since thors do reasonable against them, but still not a fun sight. Problem then is that a mid-game push is very dangerous with mech, but if you wait until you are maxed you are screwed if he went for an air transition. And it is fairly easy to hide that from a terran mech player. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
On August 31 2013 00:08 Whatson wrote: Only in the mid-game. Past a certain point, it's pointless trying to drop because any good protoss will have observers in all the skylanes, at least one HT in every base, and cannons. Late-game TvP is a dance where both sides will baby-sit their massive army, you divert your attention away from your main army too long and you get destroyed by storms. mentioned game was pretty much in a midgame scenario at 18 minutes. i guess you answered without having seen the game. nevermind. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
On maps without watchtowers is it worth putting an scv/marine in/nearby attack paths? With my intial 6 hellions do I NEED to do damage? I got told by a friend to keep them at home for defense but then I feel like the Z gets a good drone count up and it is hard to keep up with their production. But when I do use my hellions for harass they die fast to speedlings on creep or roaches. Then I get busted with little to defend. I feel like I need to be putting pressure on straight away and not allowing the Z to go to whatever option they want, because then I have to play reactively and then I feel behind. If Zerg can just choose to make x amount of roaches or x amount of muta then I need to know before what they're going to do, not after. They all spawn at the same time and then your army composition is wrong and you don't have time to make the right units. If I make a mix of marine and marauder I just find that they can just make LOADS of roaches and overrun my marauder numbers, or LOADS of banes/muta and trade well with my marines. Maybe I should go to the 11/11 build again like in WoL as it's still popular but I am trying not to be cheesy anymore, but I just don't enjoy losing all the time with Inno 3CC. | ||
Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
On September 01 2013 04:44 Marathi wrote: Guys I am so bad in TvZ, I really don't know how pros make the Inno 3CC build look so easy because my TvZ is as bad as my TvP. On maps without watchtowers is it worth putting an scv/marine in/nearby attack paths? With my intial 6 hellions do I NEED to do damage? I got told by a friend to keep them at home for defense but then I feel like the Z gets a good drone count up and it is hard to keep up with their production. But when I do use my hellions for harass they die fast to speedlings on creep or roaches. Then I get busted with little to defend. I feel like I need to be putting pressure on straight away and not allowing the Z to go to whatever option they want, because then I have to play reactively and then I feel behind. If Zerg can just choose to make x amount of roaches or x amount of muta then I need to know before what they're going to do, not after. They all spawn at the same time and then your army composition is wrong and you don't have time to make the right units. If I make a mix of marine and marauder I just find that they can just make LOADS of roaches and overrun my marauder numbers, or LOADS of banes/muta and trade well with my marines. Maybe I should go to the 11/11 build again like in WoL as it's still popular but I am trying not to be cheesy anymore, but I just don't enjoy losing all the time with Inno 3CC. Yes it's a good idea to keep units in attack paths for scouting purposes. You do not need to do damage with the hellions, just assert map control. You should NOT be losing any of them whatsoever, so try to keep the off of creep and just deny the tumors. Just follow the 4M guide on when to push (at 11:30 and just poke around with your MMMM army, go for a drop if they don't have mutas). If you do this right, they don't have the capability to do whatever they want as they are forced to spend into their army for defence. Scan their base to see their gas count/tech path/lair timing etc etc, and you should know if it will be roach/hydra or mutas. Can you submit a replay please? | ||
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Matta
United States116 Posts
On September 01 2013 04:44 Marathi wrote: Guys I am so bad in TvZ, I really don't know how pros make the Inno 3CC build look so easy because my TvZ is as bad as my TvP. On maps without watchtowers is it worth putting an scv/marine in/nearby attack paths? With my intial 6 hellions do I NEED to do damage? I got told by a friend to keep them at home for defense but then I feel like the Z gets a good drone count up and it is hard to keep up with their production. But when I do use my hellions for harass they die fast to speedlings on creep or roaches. Then I get busted with little to defend. I feel like I need to be putting pressure on straight away and not allowing the Z to go to whatever option they want, because then I have to play reactively and then I feel behind. If Zerg can just choose to make x amount of roaches or x amount of muta then I need to know before what they're going to do, not after. They all spawn at the same time and then your army composition is wrong and you don't have time to make the right units. If I make a mix of marine and marauder I just find that they can just make LOADS of roaches and overrun my marauder numbers, or LOADS of banes/muta and trade well with my marines. Maybe I should go to the 11/11 build again like in WoL as it's still popular but I am trying not to be cheesy anymore, but I just don't enjoy losing all the time with Inno 3CC. To be honest, it sounds like you're playing it wrong. First hellions don't need to do damage, but if you can, that's great. But don't prioritize hellions doing damage over hellions containing creep spread and allowing you to macro behind them. That's their primary purpose: to threaten. If you watch pros use hellions vs zerg it's usually never that far deep into a Zerg base unless they're assured to do damage. Stay away from being on creep, but clear as best you can. The idea (as I understand it) is that hellions steers them down a muta path, which is actually where you want them to be. You want to win and control this match in the midgame and choke them to death by denying expansions with widow mines and 4m. I don't hear you talking about WMs, which are key. I've held off multiple busts with having WMs right after my hellions, or depending on the match, being flexible. For example I played a Zerg and scouted that he was doing a 1-base all-in and had barely any units to defend. So I switched immediately to Banshee production and kept it at 1base play. Between WMs, banshees, marines, I pushed him back and then just prevented him from taking his natural. I don't know what level you are but I know that I end up in gold just scouting and then leaving the scout there to maybe check on things later. You should be collecting scouting info usually via drops, and then that will tell you, okay, add TLs to boost marauder/tank production, etc. But really, think of this matchup not as what you want to prevent them playing, but what you want them to play and how you can steer them down that path. I love TvZ right now, it is by far my strongest and most comfortable match up. Read the excellent 4M guide; it's not just about build order but also how you use units. | ||
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Matta
United States116 Posts
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Marathi
298 Posts
I got told off a clan member to use my hellions for defence and to take my third (as I kept losing them even off creep when I tried to deny creep with them). I make 6, get my third then go straight into WM as you're supposed to. At this point the Zerg normally has their third up and the majority of their required drones. I turtle up til I get 2/2 and try to hit a pre-hive timing, whilst using a single medivac with marines to clear creep. But this is a dream case scenario, normally I will have had any combination lings, blings, roaches trying to break my front door down. I think my biggest problem is just not scouting the incoming aggression. You can scan a Zerg base and see their tech but they put things down for safety (roach warren for hellions, bane nest for early marine pressure, etc). For the record I am plat and yes I get double eBay before rax 2 and 3 as tue timing pushes are a big part of the build. | ||
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