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On August 27 2013 21:35 BBLN wrote: I need help with TvP, I don't know what I do wrong every game. I am trying to do many drops and make economic damage but my engagements are always bad. I am thinking about doing scv pull every game now
you can do much more drops. look at 18:30 for example, you still have 6 medivacs with your main army. you can easily make 3 drops and use the rest of the army to snipe the 3rd/4th. think about multipronged attacks rather than just dropping.
and yea, learn to take engagements a bit better. i'm sure you will learn it. your mistakes should be easy to fix.
once you're decent at these two things, TvP becomes really fun.
edit: i personally really like bigger drops too. 3-4 medivacs in the main makes most people pull their whole army and you have free reign over 3rd and 4th
Yep. I'm only a dia player but I will tell you right now multipronged drops etc isn't worth it except in these situations:
Early in the game (10minute push) and hope he is out of position. Normally you will not get anything important with this. Right after a big engagement that you win impressively. Although he will warp in enough to meet your army head on, its hard for him to split up forces to cover everything. Keep the medivacs alive and this is good. Tech/probes/base are possibilities here, but you must retreat asap when he comes around.
Later in the game you need to have everything outside your base. Remember, terran CANNOT afford protoss to walk up and win an engagement close to your base. You simply die because he gets on your productions facilities. Getting the mass ghost marine medivac "death ball" is more important. Hopefully you get a 40 min win. If you keep up your economy, can protect orbitals and scan for his comp and answer accordingly + have good control in the engagements you can win at last. you mess most engagements up by not paying attention to your main army whatsoever. and some "interesting" decision making, like retreating when he only has 1 almost-dead collossus, but taking other engagements where he outnumbers/outteched you.
and remember tight macro. you especially want to build your 3rd CC very timely, cause you're softcontaining the protoss and actively denying/delaying his 3rd. you can easily force a slight eco advantage in almost every TvP.
one thing that helped me a lot in TvP was finding a hotkey setup that i felt comfortable with. dont listen to the perfection nazis who say you NEED to use 3 hotkeys. there's so many GMs who use less. i think mouzHeromarine uses two (1 bio, 2 vikings+ghost. idk how that makes sense), and i think dragon uses only one for whole army? i personally use two (one for bio+ghost and one for vikings). i think that's a really really nice simplification of perfect TvP micro.
learn to hit EMPs well. for example, if you see a HT dont aim the EMP on him directly, but try to EMP his future position, you understand? it's easy to estimate cause they walk slow. try to hit him with the outer ring of your EMP to maximize your range. blanket their whole army with these things in mind. and dont position the ghosts too far back.
just try to pay more attention to your army, do everything i said and your TvP will be fun and much better
I put the ability target hotkey on E like Khaldor teaches in his video, now its easier to spam EMP, just like protoss spams T :D
Thanks for the tips, but it just frustrating when you have much more army but two storms and your army is dead if he goes storms before colossi
Honestly fuck drop play post 15 minute mark. It's really overrated and I believe it comes from a misunderstanding from lower level players/non terran players. Terran actually scales much better than protoss in the late game so army trading isn't beneficial for you. Also, babysitting drops is way too APM consuming the fact that your punished much for mismicro in big battles than the protoss player. So instead, post 15 minute mark just focus on getting the right unit composition, focus on scanning observers a lot, focus on great army movement and in-battle unit control.
im not sure why you say this. at which level do you think do drops start to be bad? arent even top koreans dismantling protoss with drops?
anyway, multipronged aggression in TvP is strong to get someone into masters.
Only in the mid-game. Past a certain point, it's pointless trying to drop because any good protoss will have observers in all the skylanes, at least one HT in every base, and cannons. Late-game TvP is a dance where both sides will baby-sit their massive army, you divert your attention away from your main army too long and you get destroyed by storms.
On August 30 2013 23:42 Jazzman88 wrote: If I open Reaper FE in TvP, how do I stop a proxy Robo Immortal bust? I can never get enough Bunkers. One would think that 5 Bunkers plus a few extra Marines and some repairing SCVs would do the trick, but I haven't done it yet. How am I supposed to hold it?
That build is quite strong.. you actually want to add even more bunkers, and try to target the sentries when he goes in. Try to save the marines from dying bunkers by rallying them back before they explode and buy time till you have stim, medivacs, +1 and combat shields. If you get pushed up your ramp and contained with FFs, you can drop your army to the lowground and catch his army, or send a drop to his main which should be GG if his army is outside your base. If you opened gas, burrow your widow mines close to your bunkers so that they won't get sniped off easily. Burrow them behind the bunkers if he's using zealots when he's going in, or between the bunkers if no zealots are used.
Another thing to be aware of is the possibility of taking your marines and scvs and attacking his army. If he goes in repeatedly and snipes bunkers, there will be windows where he has no sentry energy. If you retained enough of your army you can recognize this, pull your scvs to surround his army and kill his army. This is perhaps particularly viable after his first attack because he may be trying to finish you off at that time and will use many forcefields. This is a good way of punishing someone who is inefficient with their FFs.
On August 30 2013 23:42 Jazzman88 wrote: If I open Reaper FE in TvP, how do I stop a proxy Robo Immortal bust? I can never get enough Bunkers. One would think that 5 Bunkers plus a few extra Marines and some repairing SCVs would do the trick, but I haven't done it yet. How am I supposed to hold it?
What are you playing after your Reaper expand? Fact, EB before +2 rax or straight +2 rax?
On August 27 2013 21:35 BBLN wrote: I need help with TvP, I don't know what I do wrong every game. I am trying to do many drops and make economic damage but my engagements are always bad. I am thinking about doing scv pull every game now
you can do much more drops. look at 18:30 for example, you still have 6 medivacs with your main army. you can easily make 3 drops and use the rest of the army to snipe the 3rd/4th. think about multipronged attacks rather than just dropping.
and yea, learn to take engagements a bit better. i'm sure you will learn it. your mistakes should be easy to fix.
once you're decent at these two things, TvP becomes really fun.
edit: i personally really like bigger drops too. 3-4 medivacs in the main makes most people pull their whole army and you have free reign over 3rd and 4th
Yep. I'm only a dia player but I will tell you right now multipronged drops etc isn't worth it except in these situations:
Early in the game (10minute push) and hope he is out of position. Normally you will not get anything important with this. Right after a big engagement that you win impressively. Although he will warp in enough to meet your army head on, its hard for him to split up forces to cover everything. Keep the medivacs alive and this is good. Tech/probes/base are possibilities here, but you must retreat asap when he comes around.
Later in the game you need to have everything outside your base. Remember, terran CANNOT afford protoss to walk up and win an engagement close to your base. You simply die because he gets on your productions facilities. Getting the mass ghost marine medivac "death ball" is more important. Hopefully you get a 40 min win. If you keep up your economy, can protect orbitals and scan for his comp and answer accordingly + have good control in the engagements you can win at last. you mess most engagements up by not paying attention to your main army whatsoever. and some "interesting" decision making, like retreating when he only has 1 almost-dead collossus, but taking other engagements where he outnumbers/outteched you.
and remember tight macro. you especially want to build your 3rd CC very timely, cause you're softcontaining the protoss and actively denying/delaying his 3rd. you can easily force a slight eco advantage in almost every TvP.
one thing that helped me a lot in TvP was finding a hotkey setup that i felt comfortable with. dont listen to the perfection nazis who say you NEED to use 3 hotkeys. there's so many GMs who use less. i think mouzHeromarine uses two (1 bio, 2 vikings+ghost. idk how that makes sense), and i think dragon uses only one for whole army? i personally use two (one for bio+ghost and one for vikings). i think that's a really really nice simplification of perfect TvP micro.
learn to hit EMPs well. for example, if you see a HT dont aim the EMP on him directly, but try to EMP his future position, you understand? it's easy to estimate cause they walk slow. try to hit him with the outer ring of your EMP to maximize your range. blanket their whole army with these things in mind. and dont position the ghosts too far back.
just try to pay more attention to your army, do everything i said and your TvP will be fun and much better
I put the ability target hotkey on E like Khaldor teaches in his video, now its easier to spam EMP, just like protoss spams T :D
Thanks for the tips, but it just frustrating when you have much more army but two storms and your army is dead if he goes storms before colossi
Honestly fuck drop play post 15 minute mark. It's really overrated and I believe it comes from a misunderstanding from lower level players/non terran players. Terran actually scales much better than protoss in the late game so army trading isn't beneficial for you. Also, babysitting drops is way too APM consuming the fact that your punished much for mismicro in big battles than the protoss player. So instead, post 15 minute mark just focus on getting the right unit composition, focus on scanning observers a lot, focus on great army movement and in-battle unit control.
im not sure why you say this. at which level do you think do drops start to be bad? arent even top koreans dismantling protoss with drops?
anyway, multipronged aggression in TvP is strong to get someone into masters.
Only in the mid-game. Past a certain point, it's pointless trying to drop because any good protoss will have observers in all the skylanes, at least one HT in every base, and cannons. Late-game TvP is a dance where both sides will baby-sit their massive army, you divert your attention away from your main army too long and you get destroyed by storms.
Agreed, I'm only dia but IMO drops only work earlygame (10 minute push and for a couple of minutes). Can't afford losing anything here and best case scenario is tech/probes/cost efficient exchanges because he sends too few units. I think multipronged drops are best after the big engagement. If you win clearly, you can't attack into his army - but his army isn't so big that he can easily split it up to deal with multipronged drops. Tech/probes and even a base is possible to take out here. Never lose any units doing this and its very good.
Past that, doing drops is suicide. Sure you can send 1 dropship to his main and 1 to an expand or whatever but it will get shut down by cannons/HT's etc its just way to easy to deflect. You can't do anything that actually threatens protoss, because you need to have all forces ready, together - in case he attacks. At this point you need very good control, so trying to do drops is just wasting your concentration. You need to be prepared.
Best case scenario is to get the mass ghost marine medivac comp after wrecking him in the first engagement, crush him again and hope to get a base, walk home and keep doing this until his army is too small to fight you. Then you can kill him. Of course easier said than done. You need to keep orbitals bases alive, scan for comps/techswitches etc etc etc.
^ I realize this is kinda ranty but I just think the match up is completely ridiculous and it annoys me that there isn't more attention towards it. I'm the first to admit T's favor against Z these days, but its not even close to as silly TvP is right now.
I have a few reps of bio vs mech, but they're from the name I was leveling and I'm incredibly BM when I level.... lol Lemme get some fresh ones soon and I'll send em your way.
All i do is bio or bio tank vs mech.
Hey, did you manage to get any good replays of bio vs mech? Still struggling pretty hard in this MU.
On August 27 2013 21:35 BBLN wrote: I need help with TvP, I don't know what I do wrong every game. I am trying to do many drops and make economic damage but my engagements are always bad. I am thinking about doing scv pull every game now
you can do much more drops. look at 18:30 for example, you still have 6 medivacs with your main army. you can easily make 3 drops and use the rest of the army to snipe the 3rd/4th. think about multipronged attacks rather than just dropping.
and yea, learn to take engagements a bit better. i'm sure you will learn it. your mistakes should be easy to fix.
once you're decent at these two things, TvP becomes really fun.
edit: i personally really like bigger drops too. 3-4 medivacs in the main makes most people pull their whole army and you have free reign over 3rd and 4th
Yep. I'm only a dia player but I will tell you right now multipronged drops etc isn't worth it except in these situations:
Early in the game (10minute push) and hope he is out of position. Normally you will not get anything important with this. Right after a big engagement that you win impressively. Although he will warp in enough to meet your army head on, its hard for him to split up forces to cover everything. Keep the medivacs alive and this is good. Tech/probes/base are possibilities here, but you must retreat asap when he comes around.
Later in the game you need to have everything outside your base. Remember, terran CANNOT afford protoss to walk up and win an engagement close to your base. You simply die because he gets on your productions facilities. Getting the mass ghost marine medivac "death ball" is more important. Hopefully you get a 40 min win. If you keep up your economy, can protect orbitals and scan for his comp and answer accordingly + have good control in the engagements you can win at last. you mess most engagements up by not paying attention to your main army whatsoever. and some "interesting" decision making, like retreating when he only has 1 almost-dead collossus, but taking other engagements where he outnumbers/outteched you.
and remember tight macro. you especially want to build your 3rd CC very timely, cause you're softcontaining the protoss and actively denying/delaying his 3rd. you can easily force a slight eco advantage in almost every TvP.
one thing that helped me a lot in TvP was finding a hotkey setup that i felt comfortable with. dont listen to the perfection nazis who say you NEED to use 3 hotkeys. there's so many GMs who use less. i think mouzHeromarine uses two (1 bio, 2 vikings+ghost. idk how that makes sense), and i think dragon uses only one for whole army? i personally use two (one for bio+ghost and one for vikings). i think that's a really really nice simplification of perfect TvP micro.
learn to hit EMPs well. for example, if you see a HT dont aim the EMP on him directly, but try to EMP his future position, you understand? it's easy to estimate cause they walk slow. try to hit him with the outer ring of your EMP to maximize your range. blanket their whole army with these things in mind. and dont position the ghosts too far back.
just try to pay more attention to your army, do everything i said and your TvP will be fun and much better
I put the ability target hotkey on E like Khaldor teaches in his video, now its easier to spam EMP, just like protoss spams T :D
Thanks for the tips, but it just frustrating when you have much more army but two storms and your army is dead if he goes storms before colossi
Honestly fuck drop play post 15 minute mark. It's really overrated and I believe it comes from a misunderstanding from lower level players/non terran players. Terran actually scales much better than protoss in the late game so army trading isn't beneficial for you. Also, babysitting drops is way too APM consuming the fact that your punished much for mismicro in big battles than the protoss player. So instead, post 15 minute mark just focus on getting the right unit composition, focus on scanning observers a lot, focus on great army movement and in-battle unit control.
im not sure why you say this. at which level do you think do drops start to be bad? arent even top koreans dismantling protoss with drops?
anyway, multipronged aggression in TvP is strong to get someone into masters.
Only in the mid-game. Past a certain point, it's pointless trying to drop because any good protoss will have observers in all the skylanes, at least one HT in every base, and cannons. Late-game TvP is a dance where both sides will baby-sit their massive army, you divert your attention away from your main army too long and you get destroyed by storms.
Agreed, I'm only dia but IMO drops only work earlygame (10 minute push and for a couple of minutes). Can't afford losing anything here and best case scenario is tech/probes/cost efficient exchanges because he sends too few units. I think multipronged drops are best after the big engagement. If you win clearly, you can't attack into his army - but his army isn't so big that he can easily split it up to deal with multipronged drops. Tech/probes and even a base is possible to take out here. Never lose any units doing this and its very good.
Past that, doing drops is suicide. Sure you can send 1 dropship to his main and 1 to an expand or whatever but it will get shut down by cannons/HT's etc its just way to easy to deflect. You can't do anything that actually threatens protoss, because you need to have all forces ready, together - in case he attacks. At this point you need very good control, so trying to do drops is just wasting your concentration. You need to be prepared.
Best case scenario is to get the mass ghost marine medivac comp after wrecking him in the first engagement, crush him again and hope to get a base, walk home and keep doing this until his army is too small to fight you. Then you can kill him. Of course easier said than done. You need to keep orbitals bases alive, scan for comps/techswitches etc etc etc.
^ I realize this is kinda ranty but I just think the match up is completely ridiculous and it annoys me that there isn't more attention towards it. I'm the first to admit T's favor against Z these days, but its not even close to as silly TvP is right now.
I don't really agree. While that big giant fight is by far the most important thing that a Terran should do, dropping really can put you in a great position, especially by punishing greedy Protoss's and what not. Yes, if you lose too many drops, you can just die, but that's kinda why you should be more conservative with the drops, save the dropships rather than do immediate damage. If you don't have the multi-tasking/concentration for it, then I think it's much better to focus on that 1 big fight but to say you won't drop because the defense is too easy is just silly imo
I won't drop because it doesn't work. Thats why I don't drop. Even in platinum they have high templars and cannons by lategame. Protoss is rarely spread out, and if they are they cannon up. Again, sure you can send a couple of dropships out but you really can't afford to send big drops out because you must have a strong main army to defend with. If you lose an engagement to close to your base you've lost the game even if you took out 3 of his bases, because he can camp your production. You need to keep sniping observers and be aware of his main army positioning. You can say that I'm too low level to understand but to be honest this is what I've been seeing from the top terran streamers lately as well. They don't do drops lategame unless they are at a big advantage.
I am not sure if this is the best place to ask but can someone recommend me an easy terran one base all in to teach my friend that is just starting? I remember when i started playing i used 7rr as a way to learn the fundamentals and mechanics of zerg. Is there something equivalent for terran? I thought something along the lines of 1-1-1 marine-helion-banshee? Would that be ok? Just a link to a vod would suffice.
I should mention that something micro intensive, drops etc would not be really effective since he is just now learning the basics
On August 31 2013 03:48 krooked wrote: I won't drop because it doesn't work. Thats why I don't drop. Even in platinum they have high templars and cannons by lategame. Protoss is rarely spread out, and if they are they cannon up. Again, sure you can send a couple of dropships out but you really can't afford to send big drops out because you must have a strong main army to defend with. If you lose an engagement to close to your base you've lost the game even if you took out 3 of his bases, because he can camp your production. You need to keep sniping observers and be aware of his main army positioning. You can say that I'm too low level to understand but to be honest this is what I've been seeing from the top terran streamers lately as well. They don't do drops lategame unless they are at a big advantage.
Even if the Toss has defense, they still need to react with Templar and actually spend money to have defense there. If you can't control your main army + drops, that's one thing, but drops aren't worthless. Especially if you can control small groups of armies like Polt can, and hit the 3rd with a decent size group while dropping his main with 2-3 medivacs.
But Polt does that in the mid-game, not late-game. 2-3 medivacs in main while hitting third sounds very much like something you would do at around 13-14 minutes at the latest, not 17+ minutes.
On August 31 2013 04:34 krooked wrote: But Polt does that in the mid-game, not late-game. 2-3 medivacs in main while hitting third sounds very much like something you would do at around 13-14 minutes at the latest, not 17+ minutes.
while I don't normally drop heavily past 17+ minutes, I do drop after winning an engagement into their main or splitting up my drops and I've seen some streamers/pros do that as well
Guys whats the best way to defend against a Bio player in TvT as mech? I feel like im getting torn apart. He pushes everywhere adn if that doesnt work he doom drops the main
On August 30 2013 23:42 Jazzman88 wrote: If I open Reaper FE in TvP, how do I stop a proxy Robo Immortal bust? I can never get enough Bunkers. One would think that 5 Bunkers plus a few extra Marines and some repairing SCVs would do the trick, but I haven't done it yet. How am I supposed to hold it?
What are you playing after your Reaper expand? Fact, EB before +2 rax or straight +2 rax?
Typically E-bay, then raxes, but I've tried both variations depending on map and mood.
On August 31 2013 06:05 GumBa wrote: Guys whats the best way to defend against a Bio player in TvT as mech? I feel like im getting torn apart. He pushes everywhere adn if that doesnt work he doom drops the main
Turrets EVERYWHERE, Sensor towers EVERYWHERE, PFs near your expos with 1-2 siege tanks, widow mines at choke points, squad of hellions to clean small drops/runbys.
Basically, put a PF near your third OC, siege 2 tanks there, turret ring + sensor tower and your third base can't be killed.
On August 30 2013 23:42 Jazzman88 wrote: If I open Reaper FE in TvP, how do I stop a proxy Robo Immortal bust? I can never get enough Bunkers. One would think that 5 Bunkers plus a few extra Marines and some repairing SCVs would do the trick, but I haven't done it yet. How am I supposed to hold it?
What are you playing after your Reaper expand? Fact, EB before +2 rax or straight +2 rax?
Typically E-bay, then raxes, but I've tried both variations depending on map and mood.
I think it already has been posted in the OP : If you follow up with a factory get tanks, if you follow up with raxes, tons of bunkers + mass repair.
In TvP, I'm trying out CC first into 4 rax build since I want to have a safe midgame and but can also apply pressure. I'm currently getting early bunker, followed by additional 2 rax, then 2 gas, and tech lab + combat shield to set up a combat shield timing push that hits at around 8 minutes, and also allows me to check the map for pylons. Then the usual transition into 1 ebay, factory and medivacs etc, although the fourth rax does delay medivacs by around 30 secs.
I was wondering if anyone else is familiar with this build, and would be grateful if they can link any pro replays with CC first into 4 rax. I feel it's quite a bit safer than the normal 3 rax builds, and should theoretically counter most stargate plays as well as large number of 1 and 2 base all ins.
On August 31 2013 07:36 Lock0n wrote: In TvP, I'm trying out CC first into 4 rax build since I want to have a safe midgame and but can also apply pressure. I'm currently getting early bunker, followed by additional 2 rax, then 2 gas, and tech lab + combat shield to set up a combat shield timing push that hits at around 8 minutes, and also allows me to check the map for pylons. Then the usual transition into 1 ebay, factory and medivacs etc, although the fourth rax does delay medivacs by around 30 secs.
I was wondering if anyone else is familiar with this build, and would be grateful if they can link any pro replays with CC first into 4 rax. I feel it's quite a bit safer than the normal 3 rax builds, and should theoretically counter most stargate plays as well as large number of 1 and 2 base all ins.
Hey, the only time I have seen a CC first into 4 rax recently was aLive on Bel'shir, but I can't remember the game or tourny ;_; I'll try and hunt it down for you.
That aside, I don't think it is completely necessary to go up to 4 rax, I think it is more common, and just as safe to go into a standard 3 rax build and play it out like that.
EDIt: Found the game, aLive vs First; WCS Quarter Finals s2. Game starts @33min10secs
On August 31 2013 07:36 Lock0n wrote: In TvP, I'm trying out CC first into 4 rax build since I want to have a safe midgame and but can also apply pressure. I'm currently getting early bunker, followed by additional 2 rax, then 2 gas, and tech lab + combat shield to set up a combat shield timing push that hits at around 8 minutes, and also allows me to check the map for pylons. Then the usual transition into 1 ebay, factory and medivacs etc, although the fourth rax does delay medivacs by around 30 secs.
I was wondering if anyone else is familiar with this build, and would be grateful if they can link any pro replays with CC first into 4 rax. I feel it's quite a bit safer than the normal 3 rax builds, and should theoretically counter most stargate plays as well as large number of 1 and 2 base all ins.
Hey, the only time I have seen a CC first into 4 rax recently was aLive on Bel'shir, but I can't remember the game or tourny ;_; I'll try and hunt it down for you.
That aside, I don't think it is completely necessary to go up to 4 rax, I think it is more common, and just as safe to go into a standard 3 rax build and play it out like that.
EDIt: Found the game, aLive vs First; WCS Quarter Finals s2. Game starts @33min10secs
EPT
