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korsarz
29 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:13 Whatson wrote: Another korsaz post about TvP... There has to be one every month or so it seems I'll review the replay but every time I see the same stuff from you so idk how helpful my advice will be. please do. and take a look at the replay above about widow mines. | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
And it is even worse when the Protoss play poking with MotherCore and Stalker first. I don't know what to do, I am opening with Reapers to be agressive and scout, but damn, it is useless after Stalkers and MotherCore arrive. I don't like to play turtling, but it feels so damn boring waiting for the first Medivac to push -_- PD: I don't use Widow Mines, I hate that unit from the Beta when they made it a "Missile Launcher", so it's the only thing I don't like to use. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:49 Sogetsu wrote: Hello, I want to know if there is some sort of early push nowadays on TvP, because after seeing so many streams it looks like there is no way to make presure (remembering fast Concusive Marauder Push) And it is even worse when the Protoss play poking with MotherCore and Stalker first. I don't know what to do, I am opening with Reapers to be agressive and scout, but damn, it is useless after Stalkers and MotherCore arrive. I don't like to play turtling, but it feels so damn boring waiting for the first Medivac to push -_- PD: I don't use Widow Mines, I hate that unit from the Beta when they made it a "Missile Launcher", so it's the only thing I don't like to use. Well, excluding the onebase 1:1:1 WM+marine-drop, the 1rax exp WM drop, there really is nothing except 11/11 which obviously is a cheese. I'm sure its possible to net some wins with a two-rax (reactor and techlab) where one is hidden, but its a bad build. I don't even like the 10 minute medivac push. But I often overcommit with it because I feel its a push. I think the best thing to do is just try to deny third and leave when he pushes out. Doom drop and start trading or just turtle IMO. Its a very hard match up to get a grasp off. Would be awesome if someone who feels they have a good TvP did a writeup on it, because I think most terrans are at a loss these days. | ||
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wag_
88 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:49 Sogetsu wrote: Hello, I want to know if there is some sort of early push nowadays on TvP, because after seeing so many streams it looks like there is no way to make presure (remembering fast Concusive Marauder Push) And it is even worse when the Protoss play poking with MotherCore and Stalker first. I don't know what to do, I am opening with Reapers to be agressive and scout, but damn, it is useless after Stalkers and MotherCore arrive. I don't like to play turtling, but it feels so damn boring waiting for the first Medivac to push -_- PD: I don't use Widow Mines, I hate that unit from the Beta when they made it a "Missile Launcher", so it's the only thing I don't like to use. At 6:00, go out with all your marines and go focus fire some probes in his natural. Try to also get sentrys. Don't go back if he photon overcharge, focus fire dem probes! | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:45 korsarz wrote: please do. and take a look at the replay above about widow mines. You seem to have an ungodly fear of attacking two separate locations. When you first pushed out and parked your main army at his natural ramp, you sent one medivac into his main, which he literally sent his entire army after, so he only had 3 cannons against all your bio. You could have sniped the natural easily. You kinda did a 2 pronged attack at the third, but a much better target wouldve been the natural or the main. Same with your last attack, the point of drops is to divert his army to one side of the map, then attacking the other side. Not dropping in his 3rd, bringing his entire army there, then engaging his army after he's killed off your drop. You also didn't make ghosts until very late in the game, which is really bad because since he gave you so much time you could have reached a critical number of ghosts + a lot of CCs. Your final army shouldn't be so marauder heavy (with less than 10 ghosts) but at least have equal numbers of ghosts and marauders, and at least 3 vikings for each collosi. Your second ebay + armory were also late, and at one point your reached Your army engagement still needs improvement, the EMPs in the last fight whiffed, you got one archon and some zealots, all 6 of his templar had full energy. Half your army was also milling around in the back because you attacked at a bad angle. You also never split your army, so his storms did max damage, even if they were a bit late. If there's one game I can recommend watching, it's Demuslim vs Crank on akilon wastes, which was really a clinic on how to play TvP late-game. Demuslim had around 20 SCVs, 15 medivacs, 20 vikings, 30 ghosts, 20 marauders, and 10 marines as his final army. | ||
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JDfz
United Kingdom50 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:49 Sogetsu wrote: Hello, I want to know if there is some sort of early push nowadays on TvP, because after seeing so many streams it looks like there is no way to make presure (remembering fast Concusive Marauder Push) And it is even worse when the Protoss play poking with MotherCore and Stalker first. I don't know what to do, I am opening with Reapers to be agressive and scout, but damn, it is useless after Stalkers and MotherCore arrive. I don't like to play turtling, but it feels so damn boring waiting for the first Medivac to push -_- Instead of opting for widow mines, I've seen a number of pros in recent games swap the factory onto the rax reactor once completed and crank out 4-6 hellions, grabbing a starport too and doing some marine/hellion/medivac harrass while adding the 2nd and 3rd rax, ebay and extra gas on behind it. Maybe look into that? I have a question of my own: is a hellbat/ghost/viking/medivac composition decent in lategame TvP or are marines still the meat of the day? | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
Anyway I will try to do it better, specially now that you gave me a more specific order for the build. About the mix you are mentioning, it is quite good against Zeas on Late, the problem is that you usually get the Hellions unupgraded on Weapon, but Marauder, Hellbat, Medivac and Viking/Ghost is really strong, the deal is... pros seems to prefer Marines because they are more micreable, but for a most "static" engage they are incredible good mix if your Vikings snipes the Colossi as they Should and/or your Ghost EMP/Snipe the Templars One problem about it is that you need to be aware of get enough Starports just in case, because for the moment you stop making Marines, a transition from the P into Stargate will kill you =/ | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On August 17 2013 07:34 krooked wrote: Whatson, against an opponent who goes colo, should I just start adding ghosts at like the 14 minute mark or around there? Also, do you recommend mass medivac? I often end up with maybe 4 medivacs against an opponent who goes for colo. I think 14 minutes is fine, its generally around the time you get your 5th and 6th gas. The standard seems to be that your 3rd CC, 2/2, and extra rax have to be started before ghost academy + energy upgrade, then you mix in ghosts whenever you see templar (unless you're a Prime terran, then you just never ever build ghosts and somehow still win) How many is "mass"? Most pros seem to dislike going for too many medivacs, I THINK 6-8 is the norm vs collosi in the midgame, don't quote me on that though. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
I guess that would be my definition of mass  Ok thx man :D | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On August 17 2013 07:04 krooked wrote: Well, excluding the onebase 1:1:1 WM+marine-drop, the 1rax exp WM drop, there really is nothing except 11/11 which obviously is a cheese. I'm sure its possible to net some wins with a two-rax (reactor and techlab) where one is hidden, but its a bad build. I don't even like the 10 minute medivac push. But I often overcommit with it because I feel its a push. I think the best thing to do is just try to deny third and leave when he pushes out. Doom drop and start trading or just turtle IMO. Its a very hard match up to get a grasp off. Would be awesome if someone who feels they have a good TvP did a writeup on it, because I think most terrans are at a loss these days. I'm only diamond so you don't need to take me too seriously, but I can usually beat low masters in TvP only. It is far and away my best matchup. The general flow of my TvPs where protoss expands goes like this: I do my standard build (cc first into 2 rax, double gas, stim, third base, double ups and factory to medivacs, 3 more rax). I push out with around 90 supply at 10:30, and passively deny the third. It's usually not already up at this time. At some point, protoss pushes out to secure the third. At this point, I start crazy drop harass, and start a fourth base, sometimes even before 13 min. It doesn't actually matter if my drops do no damage, their purpose is just to keep protoss at home while I get my fourth up and go up to a TON of barracks. After my fourth is up, I start to get vikings or ghosts. Although the initial tech is late, I can saturate 3 bases so fast, usually by 11 min, that I can afford to get both out by maybe 15 min, with the initial one out in force at 14. I often do a little prod at around 14 min. with vikings vs colossi, which sometimes wins, but other times I get repelled semi-easily. It's usually enough to get a small supply lead though. After having a very high-tech max at around 15 or 16 min, I can usually push for the win with 3/3 on the way, taking a 5th before 20 min. If not, then I usually have my 5th before protoss's fourth which puts me in a great position. The reason why my 16 min. max is so effective is usually because if they have both colossi and templar, I will have somewhere around 10 ghosts while they only have about 4 templar, and I will have plenty of vikings. If only colossi, I just emp the army and win. If I were to summarize this style I would probably say it is weak to any kind of aggressive 3 base push at around 12 min, with an early third base (this isn't even really in the meta anyway, so I barely ever face it). It's also weak to any 1base allin or 2base allin (which you can scout) or any 2base tech allin, which if you see coming you can just add on more rax instead of a fourth and just walk over him. Anything else it beats fairly easily, just because you end up getting wayyy more stuff at almost any point in the game. In the lategame, if the protoss survives there, pulling off moves like doom dropping the main (with ghosts, remember walking up a ramp with emps at the top is devastating) or a bunch of nuke harass can be helpful. Also, don't forget to sac a bunch of scv's, as mentioned with DeMuslim's composition, to make sure that as you add more tech, your core bio army doesn't really get smaller. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
Would you say your build is hard to stop all ins with, i.e even if you scout ? Or would you say you have time to stop it? On ladder I face about 60% cheese, 40% macro. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On August 17 2013 11:44 krooked wrote: ^^^^^^ Interesting, thanks. I've been following a similar, although not quite as greedy approach just today. I'm losing a lot to blink stalker all in, I have a hard time recognizing it and properly defending it. But I've had great success with adding ghost earlier, and going waaay more marines than I normally do. Getting stormed is obviously less acceptable, but its easier to just shred the protoss army. Would you say your build is hard to stop all ins with, i.e even if you scout ? Or would you say you have time to stop it? On ladder I face about 60% cheese, 40% macro. In terms of 1 base allins, assuming I scout them I can stop immortal allin, 4gate, and stargate-based allins pretty easily. Blink allin is a little harder, but then again it is pretty hard with normal builds too. If I suspect one I drop 2 more barracks instead of a 3rd CC to go up to 4 rax, 2 with techlab, which often provides enough units to hold. In terms of recognizing it, you a) see the twilight council b)see a momma core and stalkers produced, and c)a lot of gateways. DTs will usually fit the first characteristic but no others. 2base colossus allins can usually be held with a really nice concave and scv pull in the open, as well as good splitting against colossus fire. This build (not my build, I adapted it from ThorZain) actually has equal production to a normal 3 rax build, such as bomber's (2 marines 1 marauder at a time). Because of the 3CC, double upgrades nature of the build, a counterswing after defending something is much stronger, so I feel more ready to retreat to my main for 2 min. until medivacs arrive, or even lose 20-30 scv's as long as it means that I am able to get to medivacs. A little trick that I find enormously helpful in defending any type of allin is to hide an worker on the map before the attack comes, and then ebay block their natural once their attack has commenced, so if they warp in there to kill the ebay then I have held, and if they don't then I feel more comfortable in retreating to my main base. | ||
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Clairval
France37 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Derelict Watcher is the same but lots of people like to siege up the opponents 3rd. | ||
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Clairval
France37 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
Is it okay to go 17/19 or 18/19 cc after a reaper? You cut an SCV for about 3 seconds to make a second supply depot. Why do pros usually go for the supply depot first and make their cc after 20ish supply? | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
You will notice that this is almost always accompanied by scv scout. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:49 Sogetsu wrote: Hello, I want to know if there is some sort of early push nowadays on TvP, because after seeing so many streams it looks like there is no way to make presure (remembering fast Concusive Marauder Push) And it is even worse when the Protoss play poking with MotherCore and Stalker first. I don't know what to do, I am opening with Reapers to be agressive and scout, but damn, it is useless after Stalkers and MotherCore arrive. I don't like to play turtling, but it feels so damn boring waiting for the first Medivac to push -_- PD: I don't use Widow Mines, I hate that unit from the Beta when they made it a "Missile Launcher", so it's the only thing I don't like to use. have a look at the proxy reaper/fact builds by SuperNova and Gumiho. WCS KR S2. Code A, Round 2, Match 2. Gumiho vs Pigbaby, G1. Newkirk. http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs2/vod/80775/?set=1 9/9/9 proxy reaper/factory. rally SCV #9 to proxy spot then cut SCV production. 9 supply #1 (behind mineral line). 9 proxy raxx (1:25). 9 gas #1. resume SCV production. stop at 12 SCVs. 12 reaper #1 (2:35). 13 upgrade orbital #1 ( 2:45). send your forward worker straight to the protoss’ natural and hide it in a corner. do not use the forward worker to check protoss’ main base. reaper #1 complete (3:20). orbital #1 complete (3:20). proxy factory factory (3:25). 15 supply #2 (behind mineral line). reaper #2 (3:50). widow mine #1 (4:25). raxx #2 (4:30). reaper #3 (4:35). supply #3 (4:40). widow mine #1 complete (5:05). 5:05 reaper/mine timing. you need to pull your reapers back at 4:50 so they will regenerate full hit points before you execute this attack. the reapers cliff-walk at the furthest point along the wall. If the zealot/stalker are drawn away by the reapers, the widow mine can enter freely and burrow in protoss’ mineral line. reaper #4 (5:25). widow mine #2 complete (5:45). transition into proxy hellions, or even a proxy starport for an uncloaked banshee or medivac if you wish. at the very least you will force early detection and a bunch of stalkers. this kind of aggression is not supposed to end the game. It's a great way of keeping toss in the stone age for as long as possible while you tech to medivacs. also see: WCS KR S2. Code A, Round 2, Match 2. Gumiho vs Pigbaby, G2. Gwangalli (sp?) Beach. http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs2/vod/80775/?set=1 WCS KR S2. StarLeague, Ro16, Group D, Match5. SuperNova vs Trap, G1. Gwangalli Beach. http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs2/vod/80743/?set=1 WCS KR S2. StarLeague, Ro16, Group D, Match5. SuperNova vs Trap, G3. Anaconda. http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs2/vod/80743/?set=3 | ||
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