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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 24 2013 14:29 geokilla wrote:
So the OP didn't address this... What am I supposed to do after going Reaper Expand into Hellions and 3CC against Zergs? Is there a specific build guideline I should follow? How am I supposed to defend against Roach Bane all in with this build? Bunkers simply don't build fast enough when I scout this, and even if I do manage to get them up in time "They see me rolling..."
Against Protoss, what's a good mid game composition against Storm? Protoss can literally storm their way to a win against me, so I have to hit before storms. The fact that if I try to macro up for a minute, they can just mass High Templars for Storms doesn't help my situation either. I understand TvP is a patience game and hope you get a favorable engagement, but Terran is very weak in late game TvP unless you have very good micro.
Against Terrans, is there a way to counter a meching Terran? Hellbats can buffer so much damage it's not remotely funny. I've caught a meching Terran off guard a couple times through drops, but all they ahd to do was have Hellbats soak up the damage while seiging up their tanks. I know that bio cannot trade mech head on and all that stuff, and you should go for an air transition early on, while expanding like crazy.
Right now, I'm in the biggest slump of my life with a score of 13 wins and 27 losses in Diamond. If I lose anymore, I'm honestly going to go crazy and might quit this game. The BMers don't help either when I ask for a pause and they simply refuse the game, or you have faggots that think it's cool to say GTFO while map hacking their way to a win.
Master Terran here.
It's hard to say without replays. In TvZ, maybe you micro your reaper too much and delay everything at your base? Upload a replay and I will try to help.
Against Protoss we all know that we need ghosts against storm but it's kinda hard to micro them. A good army comp against toss is to have the following:
- 2 marines for every zealot.
- 1 marauder for every stalker.
- 3 vikings for every colossus
- 1 ghost for every HT.
- 2 ghosts for every archon.
This is ofcourse very hard to achieve but thats your goal, don't be afraid to scan his army composition fairly often to see which units you should build.
Against Terran you already have the answer, I never mech against Terran and have 58% win ratio but the hardest for me is to face mech. When you realize that you are facing mech, go bio and try to delay his third as long as possible while you are expanding a lot. He won't move out until he has around 140-160 supply so you have a good amount of time to prepare. Make sure to have marines on the map to see when he moves out and try to counter drop to buy time.
About your win ratio, just play more. You will eventually be matched against players with lower MMR and start to win again. It feels like you lost your self esteem but it will come back, earlier than you think 
GL in the future mate!
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On June 24 2013 14:29 geokilla wrote:
So the OP didn't address this... What am I supposed to do after going Reaper Expand into Hellions and 3CC against Zergs? Is there a specific build guideline I should follow? How am I supposed to defend against Roach Bane all in with this build? Bunkers simply don't build fast enough when I scout this, and even if I do manage to get them up in time "They see me rolling..."
Against Protoss, what's a good mid game composition against Storm? Protoss can literally storm their way to a win against me, so I have to hit before storms. The fact that if I try to macro up for a minute, they can just mass High Templars for Storms doesn't help my situation either. I understand TvP is a patience game and hope you get a favorable engagement, but Terran is very weak in late game TvP unless you have very good micro.
Against Terrans, is there a way to counter a meching Terran? Hellbats can buffer so much damage it's not remotely funny. I've caught a meching Terran off guard a couple times through drops, but all they ahd to do was have Hellbats soak up the damage while seiging up their tanks. I know that bio cannot trade mech head on and all that stuff, and you should go for an air transition early on, while expanding like crazy.
Right now, I'm in the biggest slump of my life with a score of 13 wins and 27 losses in Diamond. If I lose anymore, I'm honestly going to go crazy and might quit this game. The BMers don't help either when I ask for a pause and they simply refuse the game, or you have faggots that think it's cool to say GTFO while map hacking their way to a win.
Against Z after the build you mentioned you should drop double ebay and 2nd gas, then 2 rax, a starport as soon as possible after that while taking your 3rd and 4th gases. Then you just keep adding rax's make 4M, add another factory when you have the money for it and get drilling claws. Just to be safe against roach bane I have started making 1 tank after hellions and before mines. It helps out a ridiculous amount. For your other problems I feel the exact same way :/
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On June 24 2013 13:08 teuthida wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 08:46 wag_ wrote:
Anyone writed down the build Sound used on redbull training ground 2 mins ago against Demuslim on whirlwhind ? That was so sick, constant pressure.
It was :
- 1 base widow mines drop into cloak banshees into a quick marine tank push when he saw he did a lot of damages. He was doing it on 1 base so the widow mine drop was really fast (like at 6:00).
On the ladder alot of terrans aren't scv scouting and expect to know everything with the 6:20 scan, with the build he used, the drops hit before the scan happen. Using this could really break the meta of hellbats drops since you're pretty fucked if you're don't have an ebay + enough marines and most hellbat drop builds aren't including any ebay (you add it when you scout your opponent) nor an high number of marines (the maximum is 4 to 6 I think) I just looked this up, then tried it on ladder twice and won both games with it. Here is the build as I wrote it down: 10 SD 12 Rax -> constant marine production 12 Gas 15 OC 16 Factory -> mines x2 Gas (2) 100% factory -> starport -> medivac SD Drop with 2 mines 4 marines Reactor Rax Techlab factory techlab starport -> banshee & cloak Make a tank after 1st banshee for defense 2nd banshee 2nd tank push after / during banshee harass with all marines and 2 + tanks
Wow sick mate, I'm gonna try it on ladder today. Thanks.
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I struggle so much in TvT right now. I DONT want to go mech because I hate the playstyle to much. But 70 % of my opponents atm are playing mech and im trying to go for marauder siege tank comp vs their hellbat siege tank.
I end up losing 80 % of the time. Should I try to switch to air instead?
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anyone tried against mech to go straight for air?
I'm doing something like: barrack gas reactor cc factory pump marine + helions, starport. by this time you should see what he's doing and if he's meching you can just take an exp, turrets get another starport+ reactor and pump banshee/raven + viking with some tanks. then mass expand and go for skyterran (fairly rewarding mid diamond EU).
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On June 24 2013 21:33 IvorYchef wrote:
I struggle so much in TvT right now. I DONT want to go mech because I hate the playstyle to much. But 70 % of my opponents atm are playing mech and im trying to go for marauder siege tank comp vs their hellbat siege tank.
I end up losing 80 % of the time. Should I try to switch to air instead?
I find bio mech a bit tricky vs pure mech too. For one reason, because you need medivacs he will likely have air control with all vikings, which is very strong TvT. So try to make some vikings as well to supplement any marines. Also never engage the mech ball directly, you have to try to catch him out of position or maneuver around his army and hit his bases. You should really only switch to air after he has committed to a large mech army, otherwise he will just switch as well and shut you down, and probably be ahead on upgrades since mech armor and air armor are combined now. This is from my understanding of the matchup anyway.
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On June 24 2013 23:22 teuthida wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 21:33 IvorYchef wrote:
I struggle so much in TvT right now. I DONT want to go mech because I hate the playstyle to much. But 70 % of my opponents atm are playing mech and im trying to go for marauder siege tank comp vs their hellbat siege tank.
I end up losing 80 % of the time. Should I try to switch to air instead? I find bio mech a bit tricky vs pure mech too. For one reason, because you need medivacs he will likely have air control with all vikings, which is very strong TvT. So try to make some vikings as well to supplement any marines. Also never engage the mech ball directly, you have to try to catch him out of position or maneuver around his army and hit his bases. You should really only switch to air after he has committed to a large mech army, otherwise he will just switch as well and shut you down, and probably be ahead on upgrades since mech armor and air armor are combined now. This is from my understanding of the matchup anyway.
To add to this : In tvt the concave is allways important.
Example CsStormPolt vs EmpireKas Hots, both above 140 supply : Polt had a situation with his bio against mech. He chose places on the map where he wanted to engage the mecharmy so he gets the biggest concave possible. He makes different armygroups (what i saw 3 groups) and attacks from 3 sides into the mech army at once. Ofcourse choosing this favorable place is important. Its harder ofcourse then a standard amove, but a prime example of how u can be more costeffective against mech without alot of micro, so it gives u time to transition if needed (tanks take ages to rebuild).
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On June 21 2013 08:24 mau5mat wrote:
What is the state on the viability of Cloak Banshee-style openers in TvT currently, there are two main builds that I would like this opinion for;
1. The first is a build I seen ByuN use a couple of months ago, it is a Gas first 2 mine 4 marine drop into Cloak Banshee (with an expansion shortly after), if enough damage is done, ByuN followed this up with a 3 tank + marine + vac + banshee push, while mining on two base, and setting up infrastructure/upgrades/3rd etc.
2. Second is a textbook Cloak Banshee opener (Gas first --> 19 Gas)
How would these two builds fare in the hellbat drop heavy metagame? Is it worth revisiting these builds in lieu of the banshee changes? What weaknesses would these builds have? And what is TheDwfs' opinion on them?
Thanks.
Yes, they're good, especially against reactor Hellion expands going into Hellbats drops since they force detection (scans or EB + dual Turret) and at least one Viking, thus delaying Hellbat drops. Incidentally, they also allow you to scout if he's going the port reactor or naked port variant of said Hellbat drops. The weakness of the first build is that if your opponent answers with dual Turret right away, your Cloak Banshee transition is already dealt with (at least his mineral lines are protected); on the other hand, if he uses 1-2 scan(s) and then has to face your Banshee, it's very good for you. The weakness of both is that fast expands should remain slightly ahead if they defend correctly your agression, and you will either lose or have a horrible game against a 1-1-1 Marines/Hellions elevator into expand.
For the 2/4 drop into Cloak Banshee, you can check Mvp vs ForGG, Daybreak, WCS Global Finals and Mvp vs Bogus, Whirlwind, WCS Global Finals.
For the classic Cloak Banshee opening, from the last Dreamhack (Summer) you can check Sting vs Poyo, both games, Group Stage 1 and Bunny vs Lucifron, Whirlwind, Group Stage 1 for examples of Cloak Banshee expands into a 3-1-1 bio/Tanks timing hitting before Mr. Hellbatdrop gets his Tanks.
On June 21 2013 19:42 Hellbat wrote:
Hello, recently converted terran here. What is the standard unit composition in TvT? Lately I've been seeing a lot of mech and no bio at all. With HotS is it mostly mech vs mech or does pure bio or tank/marine still work?
thanks
Yes. Your beefiness just ruins TvT, man.
On June 22 2013 04:11 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Something I noticed in the Taeja vs. Kas games at HSC, why do neither players get armor upgrades for mech when they're going mech? While I understand that the mech composition wants to obliterate the bio before they can do any real damage to the tanks, wouldn't the armor be really helpful for hellbats in tanking damage, while also helping out your viking armor to gain an advantage in air control/give you a jumpstart on later transition to skyterran?
Well, you don't need to tank damage when you don't receive said damage because you killed faster your opponent's army.
On June 22 2013 12:59 Carmine wrote:
I could use a little help with a TvZ build.I saw someone doing a stim attack after going reactor hellions, instead of a 3rd CC. So I was trying to work on that idea a little bit and so I had this : 12r 12g reaper reaper CC fac reactor hellions(6) and then put down more rax for the attack, getting reactors on both of them. I first tried to get stim ASAP on my first rax after swapping it with a factory, which gave me a stim timing of like 8:50 or something but it got done too fast and i had almost no units. I found If i cut some stuff like delaying hellions 4-6 i could get faster rax but i dont know if its worth it. My main question is, what kind of timing does one try to hit with this kind of attack? Its only done with 3 rax total right?
Yes. A long time ago, it was a pre-mutas timing, when Zergs were opening 2-bases mutas; then Queens got range 5. 2-bases timings into third are dubious openings, but if you want to play them they're best done out of CC first since you can build rax 2-3 at 5'10 - 5'20 while benefiting from a better economy (e. g. Flash vs YugiOh, Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, OSL RO32). You can check GuMiho vs Jaedong, Neo Planet S, Dreamhack Stockholm for an example of a Reaper expand → 3-1-1 timing into third, but as you will see in the game, it's not very good and you end up behind in everything (army, eco, upgrades) if Zerg defends correctly, which means most of the time you auto-lose afterwards.
On June 22 2013 23:59 Cortza wrote:
When going 2 reaper fe into reac-fact + 3rd cc, how do you respond to a zerg looking to bane bust you off 2 bases, with a minimal number of drones (17).
If you see he's mining beyond 100 with your Reaper, you can get 4 Marines and a single Tank (the fact makes its own lab) before swapping rax and fact for Hellions/stim. Should make you impervious to this.
On June 23 2013 00:13 Corsica wrote:
How to play vs Infestor/Ling/Bane an old school WoL comp. Is it better to switch to Marine Tank. Or stay on 4M? I find that if i stay on 4M i cant decrease Infestor count. and they have like 30 fungals even if i have Mvp micro i cant split. I found ravens to be somewhat of an answer but is there a better one?
With good engagements, you should be able to kill or cripple him before Hive; assuming good splits from your part his army should be weaker than a lings/banes/mutas army. You have no time for Tanks if he's rushing Hive for ultras.
On June 23 2013 12:34 A Wild Sosd wrote:
If I kill a P's first stalker when he pokes should I run 5 or 6 marines into his nat looking for probes or sentrys?
Nope, he might be playing Oracles, or he might have produced extra stalks and will simply kill them easily.
On June 23 2013 17:34 Kid-Fox wrote:
How do you actually follow up to a defense against 7RR? I recently played a match and lost when the zerg did that against my reaper FE. I scouted it easily because it has no way to hide the warren, but I might have lost a few too many scv's defending. In general though, I feel like the terran will be behind most of the time because the zerg can be super greedy afterwards.
Ex: Zerg does 7RR, terran must defend, zerg double expands and by the time terran can attack, zerg has too much economy.
Play Hellions/Banshees, it should kill him.
On June 24 2013 12:02 surreal1600 wrote:
How should I respond to a double gas steal vs a Zerg?
Just go 1 rax FE.
On June 24 2013 21:33 IvorYchef wrote:
I struggle so much in TvT right now. I DONT want to go mech because I hate the playstyle to much. But 70 % of my opponents atm are playing mech and im trying to go for marauder siege tank comp vs their hellbat siege tank.
I end up losing 80 % of the time. Should I try to switch to air instead?
Yes, bio → air is probably your best bet if you don't want to play mech. I think you really need some kind of build order advantage to play biomech vs mech, otherwise you just get stomped.
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On June 25 2013 00:46 TheDwf wrote:
Yes, bio → air is probably your best bet if you don't want to play mech. I think you really need some kind of build order advantage to play biomech vs mech, otherwise you just get stomped.
Adding to this, as long as you're defended against Hellbat drops, he isn't going to be pushing out before about 150 supply or so, and there's a window where you can get extra Starports up while you keep cranking the Marauders and be relatively safe from getting attacked heavily. You can even do the TvP type of thing where you just jump in and out with Medivacs full of Marauders to pin him back while you grab Ravens, Vikings, and start the BC transition.
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On June 25 2013 00:56 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 00:46 TheDwf wrote:
Yes, bio → air is probably your best bet if you don't want to play mech. I think you really need some kind of build order advantage to play biomech vs mech, otherwise you just get stomped. Adding to this, as long as you're defended against Hellbat drops, he isn't going to be pushing out before about 150 supply or so, and there's a window where you can get extra Starports up while you keep cranking the Marauders and be relatively safe from getting attacked heavily. You can even do the TvP type of thing where you just jump in and out with Medivacs full of Marauders to pin him back while you grab Ravens, Vikings, and start the BC transition.
150 supply is around 13/14 minutes orso? Most peeps will still be on 3 bases, i think 3 bases is not enough for BC/airterran transition. U need to be efficient in engagements until your able to : grab a 4th and 5th base (10 gasses), start more ports and yamato + airupgrades. U will also need to start pumping vikings (which a mech players has more of normally speaking). As i see it, when going for airterran from bio, u need to turtle alot. U need to be efficient in the battle plan. Which is, stall his push until u have airsuperiority. That means, fight where u can be costeffective, pick off specific units he needs for his push (i.e. kill ravens that do pdd against marauders) and drop if able. So long ur attacking, he cant move out. Maybe watch thorzain and mouzmarine's streams. I see them doing these sort of transitions multiple times. But they still loose to mech sometimes too (widowmines are really scary when going airterran).
Good example is June 2013 Proleague : Flash vs Fantasy : 3 base Early Airterran loses to Mech. Mech is just extremely potent. Wanna go airterran, then u need alot of gasincome. Only 3 bases feels to me like its not enough because ur allready behind in airsuperiority, u will need to expand more just for the gascost of airterran and to catch up (if u want enough air to actually stand a chance).
Edit : When they go for widowmines with there mecharmy to stop ur airterran, i think having your own widowmines for defence to kill his widowmines, is a nice, maybe best counter against it. If u can prekill his widowmine armada that tries to burrow under your fleet, u basically won the engagement and depending on the location the match even (and u only need 4 widowmines to kill about 10 assuming urs were allready burrowed). But i havent had the chance yet to test this. Else, HSM's some incomming mines and retreat ur fleet, best 2nd option i think.
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On June 25 2013 00:56 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 00:46 TheDwf wrote:
Yes, bio → air is probably your best bet if you don't want to play mech. I think you really need some kind of build order advantage to play biomech vs mech, otherwise you just get stomped. Adding to this, as long as you're defended against Hellbat drops, he isn't going to be pushing out before about 150 supply or so, and there's a window where you can get extra Starports up while you keep cranking the Marauders and be relatively safe from getting attacked heavily. You can even do the TvP type of thing where you just jump in and out with Medivacs full of Marauders to pin him back while you grab Ravens, Vikings, and start the BC transition.
I can see it working if you do significant damage with one of the first drops so he is mainly busy trying to survive. But outside that the problem compared to TvP is that in TvT your opponent will make air units. Personally I gave up bio-mech recently, and switched to mech. (I really liked bio-mech better, but in the end I just had no answer for mech). And in general I am not worried much about drops. Of course I got the standard terran drop defense, and I also like to use a few vikings as forward drop defense. But aditionally there is also the counter-drop-drop: If you can't take out the medivac before his units unload, load hellbats in your medivac(s), drop them on top of his drop (preferably when they are still unloading).
I tried airterran a bit myself, but untill you got BCs the only terran air to ground units are banshees and ravens. Which are both light, so hardcountered by thors. Sure you can drop a few PDDs, but that will only delay the inevitable.
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Hey guys I am a master Terran from WoL that has finally bought HoTs.
Ive been reading this thread alot and am getting confused with some of the builds ppl are talking about such as 4M? and general. Ive played about 30 games of unranked just bullshiting around with 1 rax gasless CC's to get my micro and macro back up. Now I feel like I am ready for ranked, but I dont know any builds yet.
Can someone list the general popular builds right now for each MU? I tried reading the OP and found a bunch of stuff from March so that seems a bit dated.
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On June 25 2013 04:53 XXXSmOke wrote:
Hey guys I am a master Terran from WoL that has finally bought HoTs.
Ive been reading this thread alot and am getting confused with some of the builds ppl are talking about such as 4M? and general. Ive played about 30 games of unranked just bullshiting around with 1 rax gasless CC's to get my micro and macro back up. Now I feel like I am ready for ranked, but I dont know any builds yet.
Can someone list the general popular builds right now for each MU? I tried reading the OP and found a bunch of stuff from March so that seems a bit dated.
4M = MMMM, or your standard MMM + widow Mines
TvT currently, is still mostly about hellbat drops although I believe the 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in will become more and more popular and potent on the ladder. There's always the relatively safe and standard build.
TvZ currently really just opens CC first, into a ton of different variations, although the most common one is fast 3CC.. There is also Flash's 2 rax variation, and INnoVatioN has another deviation that he played in WCS S1 vs Revival. (VODs are free for that).
TvP is either CC first (see Jazzman's thread) or Reaper FE's (this has a few variations, from DeMu's fast 1/1 or Innovation's or Bomber's), although people have began hellbat dropping as well in this matchup into marauder/hellbat (there's a recent Day9 Daily on that).
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On June 25 2013 05:21 awakenx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 04:53 XXXSmOke wrote:
Hey guys I am a master Terran from WoL that has finally bought HoTs.
Ive been reading this thread alot and am getting confused with some of the builds ppl are talking about such as 4M? and general. Ive played about 30 games of unranked just bullshiting around with 1 rax gasless CC's to get my micro and macro back up. Now I feel like I am ready for ranked, but I dont know any builds yet.
Can someone list the general popular builds right now for each MU? I tried reading the OP and found a bunch of stuff from March so that seems a bit dated. TvT currently, is still mostly about hellbat drops although I believe the 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in will become more and more popular and potent on the ladder. There's always the relatively safe and standard build.
The 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in is just fucking sick, it completly destroys hellbats builds. Used it on the ladder today and got alot of free wins. Hope people will stick to their shitty hellbats so I can just stomp on them :D
Edit : Also wanted to add that it's not really a all-in, you can use the marine tank push to get a good contain and take a third + saturing it, while the other guy is on 2 base. Just be sure to secure your bases from hellbats and you will most likely always win to someone going 15 gas hellbats.
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I pinched this build a month or two ago from someone in this thread and I was just wondering if people still use it. It seems to work ok, but it feels a bit all-in. Also I don't know what order to throw down extra rax, what addons, ebays, starport, third, etc. I feel like if I get countered by muta I am absolutely fucked!
Here is the BO:
+ Show Spoiler +12 rax (2 marines before you start reactor)
13 gas
15 OC
@100Gas Fact
@50Gas Reactor on Rax
@400Mins CC
@100% Reactor swap to Fact
x2 Hellions > TL on Rax
Armory
x2 Hellions
Deny creep spread and get map control with hellions, try to get idea of unit composition
Next 100Gas on Stim and begin Marauders
@100% Armory begin Hellbat production
Push with Marauder/Hellbat ball, about 6 hellbats and 4-5 marauders
I think there is a second gas in there somewhere, normally about 19 (maybe I should put 2 in each instead of 3, 3 probably overkill until a bit later) as I struggle to get armory and stim off 1 gas that fast.
I really don't know what step to take next, should I start 3rd CC once I push out? Should I throw down 2 extra rax first? Or x2 eBay then two rax? Should I swap fact and barracks around so I can get a Thor and marines so I am safe vs muta? I am looking to transition into MMMM from this. Can someone gief a hand
Edit: This is the original post from May
+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2013 22:52 duxx wrote:This TvZ build is quite nice, i win alot of games in master league with it  (me playing vs a zerg on the new short rush distance map) the build is like 12 rax (2 marines before u start reactor) 13 gas 15 orbital @100 gas start factory @50 gas reactor on rax @100% reactor -> switch to factory 2 hellions, tech lab on rax armory 2 more hellions Push with 4 hellions stim + marauder production hellbats Push with hellbats/marauders (suggested amount is 6 hellbats and 4-5 marauders~) the amount depends on what you scout and what you think is a good timing to hit. If that didnt kill him, go ahead and transition to bio play with mines or hellbats
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On June 25 2013 05:59 wag_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 05:21 awakenx wrote:On June 25 2013 04:53 XXXSmOke wrote:
Hey guys I am a master Terran from WoL that has finally bought HoTs.
Ive been reading this thread alot and am getting confused with some of the builds ppl are talking about such as 4M? and general. Ive played about 30 games of unranked just bullshiting around with 1 rax gasless CC's to get my micro and macro back up. Now I feel like I am ready for ranked, but I dont know any builds yet.
Can someone list the general popular builds right now for each MU? I tried reading the OP and found a bunch of stuff from March so that seems a bit dated. TvT currently, is still mostly about hellbat drops although I believe the 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in will become more and more popular and potent on the ladder. There's always the relatively safe and standard build. The 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in is just fucking sick, it completly destroys hellbats builds. Used it on the ladder today and got alot of free wins. Hope people will stick to their shitty hellbats so I can just stomp on them :D Edit : Also wanted to add that it's not really a all-in, you can use the marine tank push to get a good contain and take a third + saturing it, while the other guy is on 2 base. Just be sure to secure your bases from hellbats and you will most likely always win to someone going 15 gas hellbats.
Do you have a link to this build? Also how does it destroy hellbat builds? If you go and drop his main with widow mine/marines will he not just drop your mineral line with hellbats at the same time? How much military to you have at home against an early hellbat drop provided you do a widow mine/marine drop at the same time?
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On June 25 2013 06:50 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 05:59 wag_ wrote:On June 25 2013 05:21 awakenx wrote:On June 25 2013 04:53 XXXSmOke wrote:
Hey guys I am a master Terran from WoL that has finally bought HoTs.
Ive been reading this thread alot and am getting confused with some of the builds ppl are talking about such as 4M? and general. Ive played about 30 games of unranked just bullshiting around with 1 rax gasless CC's to get my micro and macro back up. Now I feel like I am ready for ranked, but I dont know any builds yet.
Can someone list the general popular builds right now for each MU? I tried reading the OP and found a bunch of stuff from March so that seems a bit dated. TvT currently, is still mostly about hellbat drops although I believe the 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in will become more and more popular and potent on the ladder. There's always the relatively safe and standard build. The 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in is just fucking sick, it completly destroys hellbats builds. Used it on the ladder today and got alot of free wins. Hope people will stick to their shitty hellbats so I can just stomp on them :D Edit : Also wanted to add that it's not really a all-in, you can use the marine tank push to get a good contain and take a third + saturing it, while the other guy is on 2 base. Just be sure to secure your bases from hellbats and you will most likely always win to someone going 15 gas hellbats. Do you have a link to this build? Also how does it destroy hellbat builds? If you go and drop his main with widow mine/marines will he not just drop your mineral line with hellbats at the same time? How much military to you have at home against an early hellbat drop provided you do a widow mine/marine drop at the same time?
Mine drop hits a lot earlier than HB drop because you don't have to wait for armory. Once you have dropped them first their build pretty much goes out of the window because their mineral line is full of mines with little to get rid of them efficiently.
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On June 25 2013 06:56 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:50 MockHamill wrote:On June 25 2013 05:59 wag_ wrote:On June 25 2013 05:21 awakenx wrote:On June 25 2013 04:53 XXXSmOke wrote:
Hey guys I am a master Terran from WoL that has finally bought HoTs.
Ive been reading this thread alot and am getting confused with some of the builds ppl are talking about such as 4M? and general. Ive played about 30 games of unranked just bullshiting around with 1 rax gasless CC's to get my micro and macro back up. Now I feel like I am ready for ranked, but I dont know any builds yet.
Can someone list the general popular builds right now for each MU? I tried reading the OP and found a bunch of stuff from March so that seems a bit dated. TvT currently, is still mostly about hellbat drops although I believe the 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in will become more and more popular and potent on the ladder. There's always the relatively safe and standard build. The 2 mine/4 marine drop into cloak banshee into marine/tank all-in is just fucking sick, it completly destroys hellbats builds. Used it on the ladder today and got alot of free wins. Hope people will stick to their shitty hellbats so I can just stomp on them :D Edit : Also wanted to add that it's not really a all-in, you can use the marine tank push to get a good contain and take a third + saturing it, while the other guy is on 2 base. Just be sure to secure your bases from hellbats and you will most likely always win to someone going 15 gas hellbats. Do you have a link to this build? Also how does it destroy hellbat builds? If you go and drop his main with widow mine/marines will he not just drop your mineral line with hellbats at the same time? How much military to you have at home against an early hellbat drop provided you do a widow mine/marine drop at the same time? Mine drop hits a lot earlier than HB drop because you don't have to wait for armory. Once you have dropped them first their build pretty much goes out of the window because their mineral line is full of mines with little to get rid of them efficiently.
Exactly what marathi said : Most hellbats drops build doesn't include an ebay for turrets + you need to scout your opponent to know if you need turrets or not. The thing is, most terrans scan the other terrans bases at 6:20 to know what's going on (banshee, 15gas drops variations etc) but the widow mines drop hits way before the scan, so he is kinda playing in the dark, which means no turrets to hard counter the drop. It will nearly always do damages (lost mining time, loosing scvs + forcing an ebay thus delaying their builds). Then you throw them a cloacked banshee, killing scvs + his marines, you force scans, vikings or even a raven. Then you throw him a marine tank push with many marines and 2-3 tanks, if you did decent damages with your drop and your banshees, the marine tank push will kill him and he will instant gg when he sees it coming. If you did a little bit of damages, you can either try to push through the front + harassing with the banshee in his main or you can set-up a nice contain, while securing your bases from hellbats and getting a well satured third.
While your drop is happening, you're actually making tanks and banshees at home. Don't forget that while dropping, you're actually getting a sick scouting of his base, so you can see if he's actually going hellbat drops or not and react accordingly at your base
Also important to add : The build is not a sick build nor a special build, it just counter the actual meta of 2 base hellbat drops quite heavily by not letting the guy hitting his drop timing and make him busy defending at his base AND dealing decent damages to his economy since in most cases, he won't be ready for it. It won't make your winrate 100% in TvT, but I'm pretty confident to say that you will destroy alot of Terrans going hellbat drops.
Almost forgot :
10 SD
12 Rax -> constant marine production
12 Gas
15 OC
16 Factory -> mines x2
Gas (2)
100% factory -> starport -> medivac
SD
Drop with 2 mines 4 marines
Reactor Rax
Techlab factory
techlab starport -> banshee & cloak
Make a tank after 1st banshee for defense
2nd banshee
2nd tank
push after / during banshee harass with all marines and 2 + tanks
Thanks to teuthida for writing the build down.
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On June 24 2013 15:27 A Wild Sosd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 14:29 geokilla wrote:
So the OP didn't address this... What am I supposed to do after going Reaper Expand into Hellions and 3CC against Zergs? Is there a specific build guideline I should follow? How am I supposed to defend against Roach Bane all in with this build? Bunkers simply don't build fast enough when I scout this, and even if I do manage to get them up in time "They see me rolling..."
Against Protoss, what's a good mid game composition against Storm? Protoss can literally storm their way to a win against me, so I have to hit before storms. The fact that if I try to macro up for a minute, they can just mass High Templars for Storms doesn't help my situation either. I understand TvP is a patience game and hope you get a favorable engagement, but Terran is very weak in late game TvP unless you have very good micro.
Against Terrans, is there a way to counter a meching Terran? Hellbats can buffer so much damage it's not remotely funny. I've caught a meching Terran off guard a couple times through drops, but all they ahd to do was have Hellbats soak up the damage while seiging up their tanks. I know that bio cannot trade mech head on and all that stuff, and you should go for an air transition early on, while expanding like crazy.
Right now, I'm in the biggest slump of my life with a score of 13 wins and 27 losses in Diamond. If I lose anymore, I'm honestly going to go crazy and might quit this game. The BMers don't help either when I ask for a pause and they simply refuse the game, or you have faggots that think it's cool to say GTFO while map hacking their way to a win. Against Z after the build you mentioned you should drop double ebay and 2nd gas, then 2 rax, a starport as soon as possible after that while taking your 3rd and 4th gases. Then you just keep adding rax's make 4M, add another factory when you have the money for it and get drilling claws. Just to be safe against roach bane I have started making 1 tank after hellions and before mines. It helps out a ridiculous amount. For your other problems I feel the exact same way :/
This build seems like it's impossible to defend against a Baneling bust though. Am I correct in assuming so? I know the metagame forces you to play fast 3CC right now, but at the same time, I just lost to a Baneling Bust on ladder.
Oh.. the replay: http://drop.sc/345833
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this was my last game as a terran. i'm switching to toss to faceroll every scrub&pro (doesn't really matter bcoz toss can faceroll anyone, anywhere and anytime).
this race is a J-O-K-E
http://drop.sc/345934
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EPT
