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On June 11 2013 13:13 Whatson wrote: TheDwf (or anybody else for that matter) what do you think about the reaper FE build that day9 did a daily on? I asked a couple of friends on the ladder and there was a lot of mixed feelings on it.
EDIT: As in, about the same as a regular reaper FE/CC first or worse?
If you mean Reaper reactor CC EB +1 into 3 rax Medivacs (sorry I have no time to check videos), yes it's a very good build. You can consider it the HotS version of gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs.
I didn't watch the linked daily exactly but I know DeMuslim was saying the basic BO is:
10 Depot 12 Rax 12 Gas Reaper -> Reactor CC Depot Ebay -> +1 Rax -> Tech -> Stim Factory -> Reactor Gas Port <=> Factory (+1 armor / CB shields somewhere around here) Gas CC @ 2 medivacs
However after spending maybe 10-15 games doing this build I feel the mid game push with 2 medivacs is simply way too weak. I have nothing but marines with +1/+1 but they still get absolutely destroyed by any number of Colossus. Even if they go 1cnr build. So I recently tripped it up and did basically what you were implying. I add 2 raxes before Factory, both with tech labs, and produce some extra marauders and push with a stronger mid game. My third is slightly delayed and my +1 armor is also a bit gas starved but I feel with the composition I can push around the Protoss army more and deny his third far easier. I have a better success rate with this build. I'm wondering if it is just my own personal inability to handle 200vs200 battles in TvP even if my 200 army is better upgraded and I have a better eco behind it.
I found this TvP BO earlier in the thread somewhere and have been using it to great success in high dia/low masters
12 rax 12 gas (pull guys out at 100 gas) 15 oc 15 reaper 17 cc 18 depot 18 reactor (put guys back in gas) bunker eng. bay (around 30 gas mined so that you can get +1 immediately) 6:00 2 rax (double TL when finished) 2nd gas factory 3rd gas after tech labs stim +1 armor starport +reactor factory combat shields 4th gas
On June 11 2013 13:13 Whatson wrote: TheDwf (or anybody else for that matter) what do you think about the reaper FE build that day9 did a daily on? I asked a couple of friends on the ladder and there was a lot of mixed feelings on it.
EDIT: As in, about the same as a regular reaper FE/CC first or worse?
If you mean Reaper reactor CC EB +1 into 3 rax Medivacs (sorry I have no time to check videos), yes it's a very good build. You can consider it the HotS version of gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs.
I didn't watch the linked daily exactly but I know DeMuslim was saying the basic BO is:
10 Depot 12 Rax 12 Gas Reaper -> Reactor CC Depot Ebay -> +1 Rax -> Tech -> Stim Factory -> Reactor Gas Port <=> Factory (+1 armor / CB shields somewhere around here) Gas CC @ 2 medivacs
However after spending maybe 10-15 games doing this build I feel the mid game push with 2 medivacs is simply way too weak. I have nothing but marines with +1/+1 but they still get absolutely destroyed by any number of Colossus. Even if they go 1cnr build. So I recently tripped it up and did basically what you were implying. I add 2 raxes before Factory, both with tech labs, and produce some extra marauders and push with a stronger mid game. My third is slightly delayed and my +1 armor is also a bit gas starved but I feel with the composition I can push around the Protoss army more and deny his third far easier. I have a better success rate with this build. I'm wondering if it is just my own personal inability to handle 200vs200 battles in TvP even if my 200 army is better upgraded and I have a better eco behind it.
I found this TvP BO earlier in the thread somewhere and have been using it to great success in high dia/low masters
12 rax 12 gas (pull guys out at 100 gas) 15 oc 15 reaper 17 cc 18 depot 18 reactor (put guys back in gas) bunker eng. bay (around 30 gas mined so that you can get +1 immediately) 6:00 2 rax (double TL when finished) 2nd gas factory 3rd gas after tech labs stim +1 armor starport +reactor factory combat shields 4th gas
That is pretty similar to what I do but I don't pull out of gas which makes my expansion slightly delayed but my ebay/+1 a bit sooner and my 2nd gas a bit later. I think it is basically a wash in the end.
On June 11 2013 13:13 Whatson wrote: TheDwf (or anybody else for that matter) what do you think about the reaper FE build that day9 did a daily on? I asked a couple of friends on the ladder and there was a lot of mixed feelings on it.
EDIT: As in, about the same as a regular reaper FE/CC first or worse?
If you mean Reaper reactor CC EB +1 into 3 rax Medivacs (sorry I have no time to check videos), yes it's a very good build. You can consider it the HotS version of gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs.
I didn't watch the linked daily exactly but I know DeMuslim was saying the basic BO is:
10 Depot 12 Rax 12 Gas Reaper -> Reactor CC Depot Ebay -> +1 Rax -> Tech -> Stim Factory -> Reactor Gas Port <=> Factory (+1 armor / CB shields somewhere around here) Gas CC @ 2 medivacs
However after spending maybe 10-15 games doing this build I feel the mid game push with 2 medivacs is simply way too weak. I have nothing but marines with +1/+1 but they still get absolutely destroyed by any number of Colossus. Even if they go 1cnr build. So I recently tripped it up and did basically what you were implying. I add 2 raxes before Factory, both with tech labs, and produce some extra marauders and push with a stronger mid game. My third is slightly delayed and my +1 armor is also a bit gas starved but I feel with the composition I can push around the Protoss army more and deny his third far easier. I have a better success rate with this build. I'm wondering if it is just my own personal inability to handle 200vs200 battles in TvP even if my 200 army is better upgraded and I have a better eco behind it.
Ah, he goes 2 rax Medivacs afterwards. It's a greedier variant, yes, allowing an earlier third and tech (faster fact and possibly Armory).
If it can be of any comfort, 200 vs 200 engagements in TvP are a nightmare for virtually everyone.
I have 2 questions not related to the tvp build that you are talking about right now.
1) The 1 st one is about an old build order that bomber was using in wol. It was analyzed by Day 9 . The vod is here
It is basically an very safe 1 rax expand ( i guess it works with cc 1 st too) into fast tank and a 3rd cc. The plan is to macro and max out at 14 min on marine, tank, 2/2, 1/0 (for tank) and 2 or 4 medic. He was playing this like a semi all-in on 3 bases.
I was trying this on wol at a mid master level and i was doing okay with it. I didn't see any pro do it or do a similar stragedy since hots was released and i was wondering why ? Do you think it can work on the ladder ?
It can be a good build with the current because it give you a 100% winrate vs agressive zergs and u are doing pretty well vs heavy muta play. The only thing that keep me from doing it is the buff of ultra. Indeed i feel like if the zerg is smart enough to scout it, he can play really greedy and rush for hive. But i guess that modifing the timing of the push can be fine (maybe a small poke on 1-1 ??)
Here is te build order that I made a few months ago:+ Show Spoiler +
TvZ-Bomber => build 3 bases max out (14 min) 10- depot 12- caserne 15- station orbitale + gaz (pas de marine) @4min- CC asap- depot (2) @50 gaz- reactor (2*2 marine) @100 gaz- usine switch usine et caserne asap 3cc + gaz 2*hellion et techlab reswitch pour une prodution de marines en continue et de tank en mode siège. @7 min 10- 2 centre techniques + 2 gaz @8 min 45- 2 casernes une avec tech lab pour stim, l'autres avec recteur. Commencez deux autre casernes lorsque les deux précédentes sont finies. Tech lab pour bouclier de combat et reacteur. Lorsque c'est deux casernes sont finies: ⦁ lancez trois casernes ⦁ poser le 3eme cc ⦁ 2/2 ⦁ usine + spatio ⦁ 2 gaz
sorry, it is in french i will translate it later.
What do you think about this build in the current meta?
2)The other question that i have is about 11/11 in tvt. I was tired about hellbat drop or hellion/viking so i tried to 11/11 on ladder (low master level). I was walling with my 1 st rax and build the 2nd rax hidden near his base and attack with my 3 first marine and 4 vcs ( a rallied my 1st marine directly on his natural).
I have to say that it worked pretty well, i have a 100% winrate in tvt with this.Is this just pretty strong or were my oppenents just badly reacting to it? or both?
And why aren't we seeing this strat at pro level, i fell like it is easier to win with versus terran than versus protoss or zerg.
Things I did: -dropped destroying his cyber core and his colossus production... and saved the drop -dropped with widow mines, got a full hit, and saved it... -empd every single one of his templars in the last engagement -sniped his third
Stuff I did wrong -stimmed very... very... late in the last engagement -screwed up that timing attack at like 13 minutes.. I don't really know how to deal with forcefields?? was it wrong to even attack then? -Got supply blocked a couple times
But the thing is even with what I did wrong I really feel like I did enough to win!?!?
I have 2 questions not related to the tvp build that you are talking about right now.
1) The 1 st one is about an old build order that bomber was using in wol. It was analyzed by Day 9 .
It is basically an very safe 1 rax expand ( i guess it works with cc 1 st too) into fast tank and a 3rd cc. The plan is to macro and max out at 14 min on marine, tank, 2/2, 1/0 (for tank) and 2 or 4 medic. He was playing this like a semi all-in on 3 bases.
I was trying this on wol at a mid master level and i was doing okay with it. I didn't see any pro do it or do a similar stragedy since hots was released and i was wondering why ? Do you think it can work on the ladder ?
It can be a good build with the current because it give you a 100% winrate vs agressive zergs and u are doing pretty well vs heavy muta play. The only thing that keep me from doing it is the buff of ultra. Indeed i feel like if the zerg is smart enough to scout it, he can play really greedy and rush for hive. But i guess that modifing the timing of the push can be fine (maybe a small poke on 1-1 ??)
Here is te build order that I made a few months ago:+ Show Spoiler +
TvZ-Bomber => build 3 bases max out (14 min) 10- depot 12- caserne 15- station orbitale + gaz (pas de marine) @4min- CC asap- depot (2) @50 gaz- reactor (2*2 marine) @100 gaz- usine switch usine et caserne asap 3cc + gaz 2*hellion et techlab reswitch pour une prodution de marines en continue et de tank en mode siège. @7 min 10- 2 centre techniques + 2 gaz @8 min 45- 2 casernes une avec tech lab pour stim, l'autres avec recteur. Commencez deux autre casernes lorsque les deux précédentes sont finies. Tech lab pour bouclier de combat et reacteur. Lorsque c'est deux casernes sont finies: ⦁ lancez trois casernes ⦁ poser le 3eme cc ⦁ 2/2 ⦁ usine + spatio ⦁ 2 gaz
sorry, it is in french i will translate it later.
What do you think about this build in the current meta?
2)The other question that i have is about 11/11 in tvt. I was tired about hellbat drop or hellion/viking so i tried to 11/11 on ladder (low master level). I was walling with my 1 st rax and build the 2nd rax hidden near his base and attack with my 3 first marine and 4 vcs ( a rallied my 1st marine directly on his natural).
I have to say that it worked pretty well, i have a 100% winrate in tvt with this.Is this just pretty strong or were my oppenents just badly reacting to it? or both?
And why aren't we seeing this strat at pro level, i fell like it is easier to win with versus terran than versus protoss or zerg.
Sorry for my english and thank you.
1) This build was not very good at the end of WoL (basically you have no pressure so Zerg is able to creep spread at his heart's content, and once he identifies triple OC + Tanks is free to drone to 75 and rush Hive), and things only got worse in HotS because of the stronger ultras. Trying to hit a pre-Hive timing against a pre-12' Hive wouldn't necessarily work either, not only because Zerg can stall for years but also because the actual engagement will occur on creep, and Tanks on creep are easily demolished before critical mass (and at this time you wouldn't have enough Tanks). 2) Proxy 11/11 can be played to some extent in TvT, but only with both rax proxied; it's not a solid opening in itself, just a way to metagame people skipping SCV scout or using certain openings. If you win with one of your rax in your base, your opponents are doing something wrong. This opening is not completely unheard of at pro level, Bogus used proxy 11/11 at the middle of Red City in his Code S RO16 game against Flash last season. (Flash scouted it, built a bunk highground and prevented Bogus from containing him in his natural with a bunk, thus remaining ahead. Bogus was likely banking on Flash going CC first or 1 rax FE before second depot lowground.) It's very rare because it's easily defended if you scout it.
What is the state on the viability of Cloak Banshee-style openers in TvT currently, there are two main builds that I would like this opinion for;
1. The first is a build I seen ByuN use a couple of months ago, it is a Gas first 2 mine 4 marine drop into Cloak Banshee (with an expansion shortly after), if enough damage is done, ByuN followed this up with a 3 tank + marine + vac + banshee push, while mining on two base, and setting up infrastructure/upgrades/3rd etc.
2. Second is a textbook Cloak Banshee opener (Gas first --> 19 Gas)
How would these two builds fare in the hellbat drop heavy metagame? Is it worth revisiting these builds in lieu of the banshee changes? What weaknesses would these builds have? And what is TheDwfs' opinion on them?
I recently just started playing again and have been up against an annoying all-in in TvT. It's a 2 medivac tank/marine drop, how do you deal with that in a good way if you go for a standard macro opener yourself? I have a replay that I can show but I don't know where to upload it.
On June 21 2013 08:24 mau5mat wrote: What is the state on the viability of Cloak Banshee-style openers in TvT currently, there are two main builds that I would like this opinion for;
1. The first is a build I seen ByuN use a couple of months ago, it is a Gas first 2 mine 4 marine drop into Cloak Banshee (with an expansion shortly after), if enough damage is done, ByuN followed this up with a 3 tank + marine + vac + banshee push, while mining on two base, and setting up infrastructure/upgrades/3rd etc.
2. Second is a textbook Cloak Banshee opener (Gas first --> 19 Gas)
How would these two builds fare in the hellbat drop heavy metagame? Is it worth revisiting these builds in lieu of the banshee changes? What weaknesses would these builds have? And what is TheDwfs' opinion on them?
Thanks.
There testing a bansheebuff atm. Cheaper and faster cloak (i thought) will finish exactly when banshee arrives at opponents base. During vod Qxc tests the earliest possible cloacked banshee build and how it lines up.
I think it will make tvt much more exciting. Banshee will be more viable and cheaper.
Small add ; Demu has a nice banshee opener into 3 cc's and can defend hellbatdrops. Ofcourse if cloak becomes cheaper, it could be more economical opener (with a later 2nd gas). So in general would be even better. Check his vods/stream, he plays this build once every session.
On June 21 2013 08:24 mau5mat wrote: What is the state on the viability of Cloak Banshee-style openers in TvT currently, there are two main builds that I would like this opinion for;
1. The first is a build I seen ByuN use a couple of months ago, it is a Gas first 2 mine 4 marine drop into Cloak Banshee (with an expansion shortly after), if enough damage is done, ByuN followed this up with a 3 tank + marine + vac + banshee push, while mining on two base, and setting up infrastructure/upgrades/3rd etc.
2. Second is a textbook Cloak Banshee opener (Gas first --> 19 Gas)
How would these two builds fare in the hellbat drop heavy metagame? Is it worth revisiting these builds in lieu of the banshee changes? What weaknesses would these builds have? And what is TheDwfs' opinion on them?
Thanks.
Not sure about the specific builds because I've never used them but banshees are a really strong counter to hellbats. If you roll into an opponents base when he has been going hellbats, there's a good chance he has no anti-air at all. Sure some players throw down an engineering bay after their hellbats start getting produced, but a LOT of people go straight into making two more tech lab factories and beginning siege production. That comp, hellbat, medi, siege tank, none of it can hit air. The opponent would have to make vikings(waste of gas and minerals) or throw down a turret, which they may not be able to do.
Hard to tell at this point, but if you make a couple banshees and they don't know about it, you have the potential to end the game because none of their units can attack air. Scans won't even matter at that point.
On June 20 2013 11:50 kckkryptonite wrote: Did anyone catch that BO Flash used to open into Hellbat/MMM in the OSL Ro32 Group A Flash vs RagnaroK BO?
CC (hg) rax gas gas (4'10) bunk fact reactor port Armory lab (stim then Marauders). 4 Hellions before starting Hellbat/Medivac production. 7'40 rax rax + third gas. 9' EB, lab + reactor on extra rax once they're done. Couldn't catch the timing of the third, but it was late (he landed the third at 13'30).
Hello, recently converted terran here. What is the standard unit composition in TvT? Lately I've been seeing a lot of mech and no bio at all. With HotS is it mostly mech vs mech or does pure bio or tank/marine still work?
On June 11 2013 13:13 Whatson wrote: TheDwf (or anybody else for that matter) what do you think about the reaper FE build that day9 did a daily on? I asked a couple of friends on the ladder and there was a lot of mixed feelings on it.
EDIT: As in, about the same as a regular reaper FE/CC first or worse?
If you mean Reaper reactor CC EB +1 into 3 rax Medivacs (sorry I have no time to check videos), yes it's a very good build. You can consider it the HotS version of gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs.
I didn't watch the linked daily exactly but I know DeMuslim was saying the basic BO is:
10 Depot 12 Rax 12 Gas Reaper -> Reactor CC Depot Ebay -> +1 Rax -> Tech -> Stim Factory -> Reactor Gas Port <=> Factory (+1 armor / CB shields somewhere around here) Gas CC @ 2 medivacs
However after spending maybe 10-15 games doing this build I feel the mid game push with 2 medivacs is simply way too weak. I have nothing but marines with +1/+1 but they still get absolutely destroyed by any number of Colossus. Even if they go 1cnr build. So I recently tripped it up and did basically what you were implying. I add 2 raxes before Factory, both with tech labs, and produce some extra marauders and push with a stronger mid game. My third is slightly delayed and my +1 armor is also a bit gas starved but I feel with the composition I can push around the Protoss army more and deny his third far easier. I have a better success rate with this build. I'm wondering if it is just my own personal inability to handle 200vs200 battles in TvP even if my 200 army is better upgraded and I have a better eco behind it.
I found this TvP BO earlier in the thread somewhere and have been using it to great success in high dia/low masters
12 rax 12 gas (pull guys out at 100 gas) 15 oc 15 reaper 17 cc 18 depot 18 reactor (put guys back in gas) bunker eng. bay (around 30 gas mined so that you can get +1 immediately) 6:00 2 rax (double TL when finished) 2nd gas factory 3rd gas after tech labs stim +1 armor starport +reactor factory combat shields 4th gas
That is pretty similar to what I do but I don't pull out of gas which makes my expansion slightly delayed but my ebay/+1 a bit sooner and my 2nd gas a bit later. I think it is basically a wash in the end.
Do you guys have a suitable replay showing this build? I find I learn much easier from watchig Vods than just reading a build. It looks like a promising build. Thanks in advance.
Also, small question. Is the bunker built on the low ground at the natural or at the ramp? I guess this depends on if you move the CC down right away or if you keep it in your base and produce some scvs before you move it. High diamond who sucks at TvP here.
Completely unrelated: the OP post (great work, by the way) mentions several terran all ins that don't work anymore because of the MSC. Are there ANY viable all ins in TvP anymore?
Edit: Found an answer by Dwf for the last question (says no).
need help in tvp, the dt drop kills me everytime, even with scouting it. Also when protoss goes colossus I lose those big engagements often because I can't get ghosts for ht or vikings for colossus out fast enough off 3 bases
Hello i have 2 questions regarding TvZ Lategame. I would be really happy if you can help me. I wanted to know, how i should engage the lategame Ultralisk, Infestor, Ling/bane and few currupters army. As a terran i got Marines,Marauder,Medivak and Mines and because of the lategame and the much gas i banked i transition into raven. i got 3 army hotkeys 1 for Bio. 2 for mines and 3 for ravens. What is the best way to move my whole army without using F2? So should i first move my ravens above my opponents army to hit hunter seeker Missles? Because in my last game i messed up he attacked me on the way to his base and i still made hunter seeker missle but they killed my army too because the ling ultra is around my bio. Then he fungaled my Ravens and they died. So how should i engage? And my Second question is, is there a more effective method to split marines then just take a bunsh and move in one direction rest in other and then split more? i heart in a stream that there is a very hard way to do it with a-moving the marines after the split. I dont really understand how it works. If anything isnt clear pls tell me i try my best to explain it better Thanks for the answer
Something I noticed in the Taeja vs. Kas games at HSC, why do neither players get armor upgrades for mech when they're going mech? While I understand that the mech composition wants to obliterate the bio before they can do any real damage to the tanks, wouldn't the armor be really helpful for hellbats in tanking damage, while also helping out your viking armor to gain an advantage in air control/give you a jumpstart on later transition to skyterran?
On June 21 2013 19:42 Hellbat wrote: Hello, recently converted terran here. What is the standard unit composition in TvT? Lately I've been seeing a lot of mech and no bio at all. With HotS is it mostly mech vs mech or does pure bio or tank/marine still work?
thanks
Vs mech I think the following compositions can work, but require your playstyle to be a certain way in order to make them work: mech pure bio marauder/tank
with pure bio the aim is to keep the meching player in his base with drops whilst you take lots of extra bases and then eventually overrun him, you really don't want him to get on 3 bases or more as this is when mech can become really powerful
I am not too sure how to play marauder/tank but all I know is that is heavily suggested to swap out marines for marauders vs mech due to them being great vs most mech units. I'd imagine it would revolve a bit around drop play and using your own tanks to fall back on, similar to how you use widow mines in mine/marine in TvZ
I could use a little help with a TvZ build.I saw someone doing a stim attack after going reactor hellions, instead of a 3rd CC. So I was trying to work on that idea a little bit and so I had this : 12r 12g reaper reaper CC fac reactor hellions(6) and then put down more rax for the attack, getting reactors on both of them. I first tried to get stim ASAP on my first rax after swapping it with a factory, which gave me a stim timing of like 8:50 or something but it got done too fast and i had almost no units. I found If i cut some stuff like delaying hellions 4-6 i could get faster rax but i dont know if its worth it. My main question is, what kind of timing does one try to hit with this kind of attack? Its only done with 3 rax total right?
Hello does anyone know how to stop this when I go CC first? I feel really lost in TvZ going 15 CC I think I kind of screwed up with my fact time because I had no hellions before hellbats to scout and see whats up but other than that is there something else I can do?
EPT
