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On November 16 2012 02:12 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:55 Insoleet wrote:On November 15 2012 21:46 Nyast wrote:On November 15 2012 20:02 Insoleet wrote:On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote:
While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore. Expanding protoss will continue to produce probes on nexus after 8... Zerg needs to look at the nexus at 8:30 for example. Not hard with an overseer. Hum right, but if the Protoss sees the overseer incoming, what prevents him from producing a probe at that time ? Zerg will have no way to know that toss had cut probes. And 8'30 is still quite late to react, toss moves out at 9', even if he sees no produced probe, is a minute enough to counter the push ?
Exactly. Watching the nexus isn't a very reliable way to scout this build.
Other than actually seeing all the infrastructure or the immortal count, the better way to tell a robo-expand build from the all-in is spotting an observer before immortal. If Protoss wants to mind game a step further and skip the observer when expanding with a robo, than it will be vulnerable to muta play.
Zerg can't completely rule out the all-in by spotting observer first, but it can account that the push will be delayed or weaker, and that might just give enough room not to overreact.
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On November 15 2012 03:32 nebula. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 02:47 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Please don't tell these people they can people this off. wat
This.I had to quote this,I literally swallowed my cigarette when i read it.
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On November 16 2012 02:48 DontGiveUp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:12 Nyast wrote:On November 16 2012 00:55 Insoleet wrote:On November 15 2012 21:46 Nyast wrote:On November 15 2012 20:02 Insoleet wrote:On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote:
While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore. Expanding protoss will continue to produce probes on nexus after 8... Zerg needs to look at the nexus at 8:30 for example. Not hard with an overseer. Hum right, but if the Protoss sees the overseer incoming, what prevents him from producing a probe at that time ? Zerg will have no way to know that toss had cut probes. And 8'30 is still quite late to react, toss moves out at 9', even if he sees no produced probe, is a minute enough to counter the push ? Exactly. Watching the nexus isn't a very reliable way to scout this build. Other than actually seeing all the infrastructure or the immortal count, the better way to tell a robo-expand build from the all-in is spotting an observer before immortal. If Protoss wants to mind game a step further and skip the observer when expanding with a robo, than it will be vulnerable to muta play. Zerg can't completely rule out the all-in by spotting observer first, but it can account that the push will be delayed or weaker, and that might just give enough room not to overreact.
You want to make game decisions on SPOTTING an invisible unit? Yeah, sometimes you see observers, but that's not something I would depend on. This is one of the reasons roach max builds are (were?) popular, because you're going to want units whether they're expanding or attacking.
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Yeah, I don't know how good using this build as a fake push into 3rd base would be. I'll try it out a few times, but I think it'd be risky as you'll hit 110-120~ supply as the Zerg hits 200 supply. Even if they can't kill you, they'll be building up a pretty big bank, enough to get infestors + a spine wall to buy time for Hive / Greater Spire.
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Italy12247 Posts
One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time.
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On November 15 2012 07:14 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 03:31 Dubsy wrote:
Can someone explain to me the high ground pylon? I always feel a little robbed when I go low ground and am basically forced to 9 scout.
Ie: where exactly do the buildings go, is it safe to nexus first (blind) vs 14pool, vs 10pool etc. is it ever good to go gate before pylon, etc.
Mostly looking for the reasoning and positioning of high ground pylon. I think the high ground pylon is to minimize lost mining time and save the forge / 9 pylon against an early pool. However, when I do this build I just go for a standard 9 pylon --> scout and lowground forge after the Nexus goes down. I'm not comfortable playing as blind / greedy as PartinG does, especially on ladder. You can still move out on time with a 9 pylon, 9 scout, 17 Nexus opener.
I too have always went low ground forge -> scout in every PvZ. So if you build high ground forge you have to let your 2nd pylon finish before you can start your gate or cannon right? Feels so dicey if he randomly makes 6 lings instead of 2. Oh well, the mineral harass+hatch delay you get from a 9 scout probably pays for itself anyway. Plus it gives you something to do in the first 3 minutes of the game. Always feels good to randomly drop a pylon behind his nat mineral line and watch him pull 9 drones from his main when you went nexus first XD.
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Can you upload a recent performance of the latest version of Parting's WonWonWon? I haven't got a GSL Ticket (shame on me!) and I follow the build order but am making a mistake somewhere, and I don't know where it is. I've had delayed warp gate (finishes at 8:30 instead of 8:00) and less units than normal.
If this isn't possible, thanks anyway. This build is the Protoss equivilent of salvation! :D
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On November 16 2012 21:45 Saber96 wrote:
Can you upload a recent performance of the latest version of Parting's WonWonWon? I haven't got a GSL Ticket (shame on me!) and I follow the build order but am making a mistake somewhere, and I don't know where it is. I've had delayed warp gate (finishes at 8:30 instead of 8:00) and less units than normal.
If this isn't possible, thanks anyway. This build is the Protoss equivilent of salvation! :D
Better yet, you should post a replay of your game so we can see where you went wrong!
Sounds like your opening build is wrong...
9 pylon
17 nexus forge pylon, PROBE
18 gateway
18 or 19 cannon
20-21 double gas
@100% gateway, CORE
Pylon at around 28 to 30
Then get warpgate and a stalker when it finishes, then a robo at 200m/100g.
Chrono probes until...when you start the robo? Not quite sure I should reread  but no chrono on WG/gates, And it should still finish around 8:00
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Thanks for this, RemarK  your guides are always great.
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nice one. will try it in ladder and hope that i win against the zergs
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let's say your initial attack fails, or you don't think you can win it with that attack for whatever reason
is it still possible to fall back on a 3rd and not be significantly behind?
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On November 17 2012 05:56 probeater wrote:
let's say your initial attack fails, or you don't think you can win it with that attack for whatever reason
is it still possible to fall back on a 3rd and not be significantly behind?
Nooooope.
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High ground pylon is to hide status of forge upgrades from the overlord in the natural and the lings just outside wall-in. It delays a full wall-off, which might be a problem for a lesser player on ladder, but not as big a deal for Code S guys.
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On November 17 2012 06:48 jdsowa wrote:
High ground pylon is to hide status of forge upgrades from the overlord in the natural and the lings just outside wall-in. It delays a full wall-off, which might be a problem for a lesser player on ladder, but not as big a deal for Code S guys.
ahh wow thats fantastic logic. nice catch
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On November 16 2012 05:26 Teoita wrote:
One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time.
Does this put rain at risk against muta builds, or does he still have the tools to handle it?
(normally obs first would see the spire with plenty of time for you to prepare. Is obs after 2 immortals too late?)
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On November 19 2012 07:58 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:26 Teoita wrote:
One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time. Does this put rain at risk against muta builds, or does he still have the tools to handle it? (normally obs first would see the spire with plenty of time for you to prepare. Is obs after 2 immortals too late?)
You have plenty of time provided you've seen the third. They generally pop at 10-11 minutes on 3 base.
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United States8477 Posts
I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
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Italy12247 Posts
On November 19 2012 07:58 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:26 Teoita wrote:
One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time. Does this put rain at risk against muta builds, or does he still have the tools to handle it? (normally obs first would see the spire with plenty of time for you to prepare. Is obs after 2 immortals too late?)
I think he's ok since he does get blink regardless. Not sure about a super super greedy 3base muta (or even infestor) build though, that might be annoying.
Also, TELL US THE SECRET NAO
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On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote:
I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
is it because he has a lot of soul
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EPT
