*Note: I originally posted this to my blog here on TeamLiquid because I felt it wasn't very in-depth and I didn't want to commit to updating it. However, I have gotten strong feedback that I should post it over here along with TAiLS' PvP Stargate build, so that is what I am doing now! Onto the guide:
There's been a lot of recent discussion about Parting’s immortal sentry all-in. After all-killing LG-IM in the GSTL, he gave an awesome interview that was full of confidence and personality – “In practice matches, I've performed around 70 Immortal timing attacks, and I have never seen anyone block one. There are no Zergs who can defend against my Immortal rush in Wings of Liberty." That quote led me to research this build in more depth, and after seeing an excellent post on the “All Things Protoss” subreddit, I decided to start learning the build and work on mastering more aggressive PvZ builds.
Disclaimer: I think this goes without saying, but this push is designed to attack a Zerg who opened with a standard gasless triple hatch build. Against a 2-base Zerg, you must react to the fact that they could be going for fast Lair tech (Mutalisks, Infestors, Hydra + Nydus) or going for a hatch tech bust (Roach rush, baneling bust, or roach-ling all-in). Discussing how to react to 2-base Zerg is beyond the scope of this guide, however, I will say that Koreans facing this scenario in the GSL almost always go for fast Stargate with sentries into immediately Chronoboosting a Phoenix to scout what is going on, and then focus on countering whatever tech choice the Zerg went for.
Safer and more recent variant:
Thanks to TL-user oOOoOphidian for sending me this:
"Here are the most recent timings on his build. They're mostly the same as they were in September, but the small changes seem to help, especially the opener. The timings of the opener allow you to be completely safe against 14 pool, which the old opener did not (especially with Forge in main).
Push at 8:50 with 7 Sentry, 3 Immortal, 1 Stalker to set up a single proxy pylon Rally warp prism and make 7th Gate Wall off natural with 2 more pylons, wall off rest of main with 1 more pylon Warp in 2 Sentries and 2 Zealots as you move out."
Greediest variant for maximum strength:
Thanks to Reddit user pandazrule93 for taking the time to write this up from a Parting VoD:
9 Pylon (in main) Chronoboost probes 3 times 17 Nexus 17 Forge in main 17 Pylon at nat 17 Resume probe production 18 Gate at nat 18/19 Cannon at nat 20 Double gas in main 23 Pylon at nat 24 Cybernetics core @ gateway 100% complete 26 Research +1 ground weapons 30 Research warpgate @ cybernetics core 100% complete 30 Stalker (optional chronoboost on it) 36 Robotics facility 36 1st gas at nat 36 Pylon - place this for partial wall-off at the top of your main ramp @100 gas start sentry 44 Add 2 gates 46 Build immortal + Chronoboost it 54 2nd gas at nat 54 Add 1 gate 60 Add 3 gates
Notes: Stop producing probes at full saturation (44) Go up to 3 immortals Push out at 8:50 with 3 immortals, 1 stalker, 1 zealot, 7 sentries Warp prism and observer after 3rd immortal Wall-off your natural (and main) as push leaves Hit at 10:00 - go straight for the Zerg's natural, don't waste time attacking his 3rd base (this lets you forcefield his ramp to isolate reinforcements if you get into position as well) All chronoboost on probes and then immortals. Your robotics facility should never stop being chronoboosted once the first immortal is started. Parting positions his stalker to deny overlord scouts, so don't keep it out on the map for very long
Here are some tips and tricks posted by Reddit user bearrosaurus (some slight paraphrasing on my part):
- Parting goes Nexus first, Forge in his main base, and no scouting until the 18 gateway to max his mining. All the scout does is look for the hatch building at the third, then it goes back home to mine.* - No +1 armor. It looks like all the chronoboosts are on probes, and then on the robo nonstop. - His stalker is placed to deny the overlord scout at 7 min. - Probes cut when the first Immortal finishes (44 probes).
*RemarK note: on ladder, I would be scared of not scouting for so long versus a Zerg player, so if you aren't comfortable with it, feel free to 9 scout or build a blind 13 Forge and scout with the probe that builds the Forge - the build will still work!
One thought / comment I have on this build is that its effectiveness is directly correlated to how fast you can push out with it – if you aren’t succeeding with it, make sure that you are pushing out with the same amount of units at the same time that Parting does.
Example of good macro execution - this replay is just me practicing the build with a friend in the game. It hits pretty much all the macro benchmarks PartinG does, and moves out with the right immortal count on time.
RemarK vs Swarm - this replay was after I spent some time practicing the build versus my teammates and shows much better execution on the macro side than the other replays I have here.
Disclaimer: the replays vs Dreamizer and Hawk are only my 2nd and 3rd time executing the build ever - they are NOT an example of a perfect or ever close to perfect level of execution of the build. The VoDs will be more helpful for learning the exact build, the replays are here simply to chronicle my own experiences with this build.
RemarK vs MYiDreamizer – he played very interestingly. His response to this build was cutting lair + evo chamber, and never droning too hard. If I had read the situation properly, I could have just backed off after killing drones at his 3rd base and been ahead in both tech and economy. However, this was only my 2nd time trying the build and I overcommitted to aggression and lost the game. Also, my push was hitting later than it should so I believe just executing Parting’s build properly would have translated to a fairly straightforward win as well.
RemarK vs QuanticHawk– I’m not sure if Hawk misread my build or just messed up his control by letting me get into a deadly position with my units (especially sentries), but this game could been a lot closer if he had more units and better positioning. He was going for a very ling-heavy defense, but could not directly engage my army when I first moved out and his attempt to get the lings past my wall was ineffective. This game I moved out faster than the first game versus Dreamizer, but I still need to improve things like preemptively placing my gateways to wall of at my main ramp and moving my army across the map in a tight ball formation.
Final Notes:
I’ll continue practicing the build over the coming days, and update this post with more replays + analysis as I can. Also, if anyone knows of more VoDs of this build, please post here or PM me so that I can add them to this post. I hope some of you join me in this conversation and post your results / replays with this build here for further discussion!
My name is Matthew "RemarK" Kramer, a Grandmaster Protoss player on the NA server. I come from a competitive Halo background and have been playing Starcraft II since 2010, starting out in bronze. If you want to learn more about me or support me, you can check out my hub thread here on teamliquid and comment! I am also a streamer (click here for my stream) - you can follow me on Twitter (@remarkiwa) for updates about when I will be going live or to further interact with me.
Thank you so much for reading and I hope this guide was helpful!
Nice in-depth guide! I haven't been playing any Toss lately, but I might give this a shot for a bit just to see what it's like doing this ever infamous build.
One thought / comment I have on this build is that its effectiveness is directly correlated to how fast you can push out with it – if you aren’t succeeding with it, make sure that you are pushing out with the same amount of units at the same time that Parting does.
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Is that the key to execute it in a soulful way? :D
Can you please just make a perfect execution against the AI replay? I can't seem to find any replay of someone with 3 immortal, 7 sentry, 1 stalker move out at 8:50.
On November 13 2012 15:28 SCRedditor wrote: Can you please just make a perfect execution against the AI replay? I can't seem to find any replay of someone with 3 immortal, 7 sentry, 1 stalker move out at 8:50.
On November 14 2012 02:14 Anthonie wrote: Thanks for writing the build down as a guide~ Not sure how Parting was expecting to hide his build from the eyes of the VOD watchers..
While PartinG gets a bit ahead in the early game because he plays greedier (this is reflected in the guide), his true strength is exceptional micro and the decision to be more sentry/zealot heavy when the situation calls for it.
But obviously the "invencible" part and the "secret" mentioned in his inverteview are just to create hype. don't buy too much into it. : )
On November 14 2012 05:48 Dark Seraph wrote: What's the best indicator(s) that this build is coming and what is the appropriate response as zerg? I play random please don't hate me
Fast natural gasses, high sentry count, fast robo, no observers or warp prisms.
I think the base trade is the best way to beat it, as evidenced by the fact that parting double walls his base when he moves out (aka walls in his natural choke AND his main choke with pylons). honestly though if you're playing against someone who can hit parting's 9 minute timing and doesn't completely whiff forcefields, i think you're pretty much boned.
So Parting only uses 6-gates now? I guess my macro is bad or I'm not chronoing gates fast enough, but I always float with only 6 gates, especially if I am going zealot sentry heavy in my warp-ins.
In his game against losira on entombed, I noticed he doesnt warp in a single stalker the entire push (this could be because he lost his natural)
But something I noticed was that if you warp in only zealot sentry, the zealots do a way better job vs. lings than stalkers ever could. (immortals should always be microed to hit roaches) and with all your gas going towards more sentries, you essentially have an unlimited number of forcefields at your disposal.
You'll be surprised at how effective it is not warping in any stalkers
tl;dr stalkers suck :D
Edit: Another reason that warping in only zealot sentry is good is that your push maintains its power all throughout the push so long as your immortals survive. Even if you lose 3-4 sentries or cast alot of early FF's your pushes effectiveness will remain the same as your gas is going on more sentries and minerals going on zealots. The zealot warp ins also allow for faster reinforcement since the cooldown on zealots is slightly lower than that of other gateway units.
*note, if your going to be going zealot/sentry warp ins, you're going to have to move up to 8 gateways in order to spend your money. You cant afford to miss a warp in either or your macro will snowball and you'll find yourself with 1000minerals you cant spend.
On November 14 2012 07:48 CryMore wrote: So Parting only uses 6-gates now? I guess my macro is bad or I'm not chronoing gates fast enough, but I always float with only 6 gates, especially if I am going zealot sentry heavy in my warp-ins.
No, you make the 7th gateway as you are pushing out.
Also I don't recommend an 8th gateway unless your macro is very bad. All you need to do to spend your money is warp in mostly zealot/sentry off 7 gates and chrono them constantly.
this build is really strong ! however i just would like ti know if you scout and confirm a third being built would it be safer to keep the probe to 100% confirm a third has been up in case zerg sneakingly cancelled the third and tries a 2 base all in ? and if that is the case how well with this hold and/or how will the build be altered. what do you do in the event a 10 pool just build more sentries and chrono on gate units instead of the robo ? thanks in advance great guide to btw!
I lost a couple games on ladder recently, when doing this build, against mutas and speedlings where Z goes directly into base trade mode. What do you think is the optimal answer in this case?
On November 14 2012 14:51 Merany wrote: I lost a couple games on ladder recently, when doing this build, against mutas and speedlings where Z goes directly into base trade mode. What do you think is the optimal answer in this case?
Fastest Zerg can have mutas out with off of a gasless triple hatch opening is ~11:00. Since you're moving out at 8:50~, you should be hitting way before they have mutas out. That said, you should also have a tight wall off and an extra cannon to be safe if you're pushing out later. Honestly though, it sounds like your problem is macro / timing related rather than strategy related.
If the Zerg is staying on 2-bases, you shouldn't do this build at all, of course - standard response to a 2-base Zerg is to get a fast Stargate, make a Sentry or two to be safe against roach all-ins / baneling busts, and chrono Phoenix to scout if he's going 2-base Infestor or 2-base Muta.
Also, I really like warping in zealot Sentry and adding 2 gates instead of just one when you move out (so you have 8-gates total). Extra forcefields are really nice and many Zergs try to beat this push by making more speedlings than roaches. Might add that to the guide in a bit, thanks AGiantSmurf.
ty RemarK for this! i've been doing a variant of this build where u get +1 armor and only 2 immortals. While quite good, since I started using ur/parting's soul version, my winrate got a nice extra boost.
And with regard to all the Zergs saying this is boring and bad play or l2macro (actually on ladder every other zerg tells me that):
Why should a toss want to play a 20 to 30+ minute game only then to (most probably) lose to Bl infestor spines? the fast 3 hatch style is basically forcing toss in 2 or sometimes 3 base all ins. You want another style? don't get a fast 3rd and at least I would just love to play the macro game with u
On November 14 2012 21:09 Teoita wrote: To be fair, Parting did fuck up his forcefields during the first fight and just donated all the zealots for free.
he lost 3 sentries with full energy in the very first engagement.
plus he warp in stalkers instead of more sentries/zeals after the first engagement.,
On November 14 2012 21:15 sitromit wrote: Sniper played really greedy in the opening. I don't know if that's always a viable way to hold it. He went hatch 1st into 3 min 3rd.
That's because parting when 16 nexus without scouting, isn't it?
On November 14 2012 21:15 sitromit wrote: Sniper played really greedy in the opening. I don't know if that's always a viable way to hold it. He went hatch 1st into 3 min 3rd.
That's because parting when 16 nexus without scouting, isn't it?
You can't scout a nexus first before a hatch first.
On November 14 2012 21:15 sitromit wrote: Sniper played really greedy in the opening. I don't know if that's always a viable way to hold it. He went hatch 1st into 3 min 3rd.
That's because parting when 16 nexus without scouting, isn't it?
You can't scout a nexus first before a hatch first.
Parting is known to nexus first and not scout. Sniper just meta-gamed him.
On November 15 2012 03:31 Dubsy wrote: Can someone explain to me the high ground pylon? I always feel a little robbed when I go low ground and am basically forced to 9 scout.
Ie: where exactly do the buildings go, is it safe to nexus first (blind) vs 14pool, vs 10pool etc. is it ever good to go gate before pylon, etc.
Mostly looking for the reasoning and positioning of high ground pylon.
I think the high ground pylon is to minimize lost mining time and save the forge / 9 pylon against an early pool.
However, when I do this build I just go for a standard 9 pylon --> scout and lowground forge after the Nexus goes down. I'm not comfortable playing as blind / greedy as PartinG does, especially on ladder. You can still move out on time with a 9 pylon, 9 scout, 17 Nexus opener.
I haven't watched enough lately to know, but it would seem like any semi-fast lair play (gasp... zerg actually would have to mine gas before 8 minutes, not you leenock) would just shut this build down before it got out of the gate especially on larger maps...
I also play terran so I have no ladder experience with either race against the build... just saying
On November 14 2012 21:15 sitromit wrote: Sniper played really greedy in the opening. I don't know if that's always a viable way to hold it. He went hatch 1st into 3 min 3rd.
That's because parting when 16 nexus without scouting, isn't it?
You can't scout a nexus first before a hatch first.
If they don't probe scout you can safely hatch first.
On November 15 2012 08:37 HungrySC2 wrote: I haven't watched enough lately to know, but it would seem like any semi-fast lair play (gasp... zerg actually would have to mine gas before 8 minutes, not you leenock) would just shut this build down before it got out of the gate especially on larger maps...
I also play terran so I have no ladder experience with either race against the build... just saying
On November 15 2012 08:37 HungrySC2 wrote: I haven't watched enough lately to know, but it would seem like any semi-fast lair play (gasp... zerg actually would have to mine gas before 8 minutes, not you leenock) would just shut this build down before it got out of the gate especially on larger maps...
I also play terran so I have no ladder experience with either race against the build... just saying
The only type of fast lair play that would shut this build down is 2-base tech - I think it goes without saying this build is designed to hit a Zerg who plays standard with gasless triple hatch. However, just in case, I added this as a disclaimer at the top of the build order skeleton.
On November 15 2012 08:59 oOOoOphidian wrote: If they don't probe scout you can safely hatch first.
Yes, this is absolutely true - many Zerg respond to a delayed / no Probe scout build by going hatch first, which is yet another reason I prefer to 9 scout when I do this build.
On November 15 2012 08:37 HungrySC2 wrote: I haven't watched enough lately to know, but it would seem like any semi-fast lair play (gasp... zerg actually would have to mine gas before 8 minutes, not you leenock) would just shut this build down before it got out of the gate especially on larger maps...
I also play terran so I have no ladder experience with either race against the build... just saying
You shouldn't comment on matchups that you don't understand
Zerg takes gas at 6:00 in standard ZvP, any other build from Zerg loses to a majority of other builds the Protoss have. I mean I kind of like Nestea's fast muta build, but the 4:30 gas hurts your eco so much that, while still possible, defending 4gate +1 or 7gate all ins hurts your economy to the point where you die pretty much. Like it's hard enough to defend a 7gate when you hit 70 supply at 8:00, let alone fast gas giving you 5-10 less. That's up to 20 less speedlings. Not a fun time.
I don't want to be rude, but clearly you don't pay much attention to ZvP
On the discussion of this, what do you guys think is better to defend immo/sentry?
1) Cut drones around 60, mass roach/ling and engage early to kill sentries/waste FF, or baserace if things go south
2) Fast gas for fast lair, infestors/mutas
3) Use spine/ling to buy time for standard infestor timing (11:30ish)
On November 15 2012 08:37 HungrySC2 wrote: I haven't watched enough lately to know, but it would seem like any semi-fast lair play (gasp... zerg actually would have to mine gas before 8 minutes, not you leenock) would just shut this build down before it got out of the gate especially on larger maps...
I also play terran so I have no ladder experience with either race against the build... just saying
You shouldn't comment on matchups that you don't understand
Zerg takes gas at 6:00 in standard ZvP, any other build from Zerg loses to a majority of other builds the Protoss have. I mean I kind of like Nestea's fast muta build, but the 4:30 gas hurts your eco so much that, while still possible, defending 4gate +1 or 7gate all ins hurts your economy to the point where you die pretty much. Like it's hard enough to defend a 7gate when you hit 70 supply at 8:00, let alone fast gas giving you 5-10 less. That's up to 20 less speedlings. Not a fun time.
I don't want to be rude, but clearly you don't pay much attention to ZvP
On the discussion of this, what do you guys think is better to defend immo/sentry?
1) Cut drones around 60, mass roach/ling and engage early to kill sentries/waste FF, or baserace if things go south
2) Fast gas for fast lair, infestors/mutas
3) Use spine/ling to buy time for standard infestor timing (11:30ish)
Take this with a pinch of salt as I'm only mid-high Diamond player (but can still execute reasonably well 8:50 push out etc) but the times I have the most trouble with this build is when the Zerg recognises it (either by knowing the gas timings or scouting the ludicrously early robo) and cuts Drones to mass Roach/Ling, looking for a mid-map engagement. The worst times are when a Zerg intercepts you in a relatively open area with a composition heavily skewed towards Lings rather than Roaches.
Also, bace trading is pretty much the worst thing you can do in my (possibly terrible/wrong) opinion, considering PartinG specifically walls off in two places to prevent this. You need to consider that from a Protoss perspective if you heavily commit to the base trade then I can simply warp in a Sentry or two at my ramp to infinitely delay you while my main army goes to town on your bases.
On November 15 2012 08:37 HungrySC2 wrote: I haven't watched enough lately to know, but it would seem like any semi-fast lair play (gasp... zerg actually would have to mine gas before 8 minutes, not you leenock) would just shut this build down before it got out of the gate especially on larger maps...
I also play terran so I have no ladder experience with either race against the build... just saying
You shouldn't comment on matchups that you don't understand
Zerg takes gas at 6:00 in standard ZvP, any other build from Zerg loses to a majority of other builds the Protoss have. I mean I kind of like Nestea's fast muta build, but the 4:30 gas hurts your eco so much that, while still possible, defending 4gate +1 or 7gate all ins hurts your economy to the point where you die pretty much. Like it's hard enough to defend a 7gate when you hit 70 supply at 8:00, let alone fast gas giving you 5-10 less. That's up to 20 less speedlings. Not a fun time.
I don't want to be rude, but clearly you don't pay much attention to ZvP
On the discussion of this, what do you guys think is better to defend immo/sentry?
1) Cut drones around 60, mass roach/ling and engage early to kill sentries/waste FF, or baserace if things go south
2) Fast gas for fast lair, infestors/mutas
3) Use spine/ling to buy time for standard infestor timing (11:30ish)
Option number 1 sounds like the best and most standard choice. Base trading is generally best used as a last resort, although a swift counter attack with 5-7 roaches and some lings when you see the Toss move out for the first time can be powerful. A good / refined player will be probably have a tight wall and be able to warp-in to avoid taking damage, but it's also the mark of a good Z to check for such holes in a defense. Worst case scenario is you gain nothing / force a few warpins on the wrong side of the wall
On November 15 2012 17:07 AngryPenguin wrote: This build is already dead in pro-level play, just 2-3 weeks and at every level everyone can just laugh on your face.
While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continuing probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote: While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes
On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote: While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes
How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore.
On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote: While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes
How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore.
Expanding protoss will continue to produce probes on nexus after 8... Zerg needs to look at the nexus at 8:30 for example. Not hard with an overseer.
On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote: While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes
How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore.
Expanding protoss will continue to produce probes on nexus after 8... Zerg needs to look at the nexus at 8:30 for example. Not hard with an overseer.
Hum right, but if the Protoss sees the overseer incoming, what prevents him from producing a probe at that time ? Zerg will have no way to know that toss had cut probes. And 8'30 is still quite late to react, toss moves out at 9', even if he sees no produced probe, is a minute enough to counter the push ?
On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote: While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes
How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore.
Expanding protoss will continue to produce probes on nexus after 8... Zerg needs to look at the nexus at 8:30 for example. Not hard with an overseer.
Hum right, but if the Protoss sees the overseer incoming, what prevents him from producing a probe at that time ? Zerg will have no way to know that toss had cut probes. And 8'30 is still quite late to react, toss moves out at 9', even if he sees no produced probe, is a minute enough to counter the push ?
Exactly. Watching the nexus isn't a very reliable way to scout this build.
Other than actually seeing all the infrastructure or the immortal count, the better way to tell a robo-expand build from the all-in is spotting an observer before immortal. If Protoss wants to mind game a step further and skip the observer when expanding with a robo, than it will be vulnerable to muta play.
Zerg can't completely rule out the all-in by spotting observer first, but it can account that the push will be delayed or weaker, and that might just give enough room not to overreact.
On November 15 2012 19:44 Nyast wrote: While I agree this build is very strong as an all-in, I think not comitting to it, continying probe production a little bit, faking a push until the middle of the map and coming back to take a third.. might be even better. The only way for Zerg to survive this push is to not under-estimate it, and there's no early sign saying whether you're going to commit or not, so he HAS to stop droning and produce a lot of low-tech units. That's delaying his eco and tech significantly, and I think Protoss can hit the pre-BL timings with a 3 bases eco a lot more easily with that..
Zerg needs to recognize if its all in or not by watching at the nexus producing probes
How can he do that ? This build cuts probes after the first and a half immortal around 8'.. at this point the Protoss definitely has a stalker and a few sentries out already. Scouting with overlords isn't gonna happen anymore.
Expanding protoss will continue to produce probes on nexus after 8... Zerg needs to look at the nexus at 8:30 for example. Not hard with an overseer.
Hum right, but if the Protoss sees the overseer incoming, what prevents him from producing a probe at that time ? Zerg will have no way to know that toss had cut probes. And 8'30 is still quite late to react, toss moves out at 9', even if he sees no produced probe, is a minute enough to counter the push ?
Exactly. Watching the nexus isn't a very reliable way to scout this build.
Other than actually seeing all the infrastructure or the immortal count, the better way to tell a robo-expand build from the all-in is spotting an observer before immortal. If Protoss wants to mind game a step further and skip the observer when expanding with a robo, than it will be vulnerable to muta play.
Zerg can't completely rule out the all-in by spotting observer first, but it can account that the push will be delayed or weaker, and that might just give enough room not to overreact.
You want to make game decisions on SPOTTING an invisible unit? Yeah, sometimes you see observers, but that's not something I would depend on. This is one of the reasons roach max builds are (were?) popular, because you're going to want units whether they're expanding or attacking.
Yeah, I don't know how good using this build as a fake push into 3rd base would be. I'll try it out a few times, but I think it'd be risky as you'll hit 110-120~ supply as the Zerg hits 200 supply. Even if they can't kill you, they'll be building up a pretty big bank, enough to get infestors + a spine wall to buy time for Hive / Greater Spire.
One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time.
On November 15 2012 03:31 Dubsy wrote: Can someone explain to me the high ground pylon? I always feel a little robbed when I go low ground and am basically forced to 9 scout.
Ie: where exactly do the buildings go, is it safe to nexus first (blind) vs 14pool, vs 10pool etc. is it ever good to go gate before pylon, etc.
Mostly looking for the reasoning and positioning of high ground pylon.
I think the high ground pylon is to minimize lost mining time and save the forge / 9 pylon against an early pool.
However, when I do this build I just go for a standard 9 pylon --> scout and lowground forge after the Nexus goes down. I'm not comfortable playing as blind / greedy as PartinG does, especially on ladder. You can still move out on time with a 9 pylon, 9 scout, 17 Nexus opener.
I too have always went low ground forge -> scout in every PvZ. So if you build high ground forge you have to let your 2nd pylon finish before you can start your gate or cannon right? Feels so dicey if he randomly makes 6 lings instead of 2. Oh well, the mineral harass+hatch delay you get from a 9 scout probably pays for itself anyway. Plus it gives you something to do in the first 3 minutes of the game. Always feels good to randomly drop a pylon behind his nat mineral line and watch him pull 9 drones from his main when you went nexus first XD.
Can you upload a recent performance of the latest version of Parting's WonWonWon? I haven't got a GSL Ticket (shame on me!) and I follow the build order but am making a mistake somewhere, and I don't know where it is. I've had delayed warp gate (finishes at 8:30 instead of 8:00) and less units than normal.
If this isn't possible, thanks anyway. This build is the Protoss equivilent of salvation! :D
On November 16 2012 21:45 Saber96 wrote: Can you upload a recent performance of the latest version of Parting's WonWonWon? I haven't got a GSL Ticket (shame on me!) and I follow the build order but am making a mistake somewhere, and I don't know where it is. I've had delayed warp gate (finishes at 8:30 instead of 8:00) and less units than normal.
If this isn't possible, thanks anyway. This build is the Protoss equivilent of salvation! :D
Better yet, you should post a replay of your game so we can see where you went wrong!
Sounds like your opening build is wrong... 9 pylon 17 nexus forge pylon, PROBE 18 gateway 18 or 19 cannon 20-21 double gas @100% gateway, CORE Pylon at around 28 to 30 Then get warpgate and a stalker when it finishes, then a robo at 200m/100g. Chrono probes until...when you start the robo? Not quite sure I should reread but no chrono on WG/gates, And it should still finish around 8:00
High ground pylon is to hide status of forge upgrades from the overlord in the natural and the lings just outside wall-in. It delays a full wall-off, which might be a problem for a lesser player on ladder, but not as big a deal for Code S guys.
On November 17 2012 06:48 jdsowa wrote: High ground pylon is to hide status of forge upgrades from the overlord in the natural and the lings just outside wall-in. It delays a full wall-off, which might be a problem for a lesser player on ladder, but not as big a deal for Code S guys.
On November 16 2012 05:26 Teoita wrote: One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time.
Does this put rain at risk against muta builds, or does he still have the tools to handle it? (normally obs first would see the spire with plenty of time for you to prepare. Is obs after 2 immortals too late?)
On November 16 2012 05:26 Teoita wrote: One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time.
Does this put rain at risk against muta builds, or does he still have the tools to handle it? (normally obs first would see the spire with plenty of time for you to prepare. Is obs after 2 immortals too late?)
You have plenty of time provided you've seen the third. They generally pop at 10-11 minutes on 3 base.
On November 16 2012 05:26 Teoita wrote: One cool adjustment that Rain made during the OSL finals was getting the Immortals before Obs while still expanding, and he scared the shit out of DRG.
I'm pretty sure that's only relevant at a really, really high level of play though. I know i can't spot observers to save my life most of the time.
Does this put rain at risk against muta builds, or does he still have the tools to handle it? (normally obs first would see the spire with plenty of time for you to prepare. Is obs after 2 immortals too late?)
I think he's ok since he does get blink regardless. Not sure about a super super greedy 3base muta (or even infestor) build though, that might be annoying.
On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote: I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote: I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
is it because he has a lot of soul
but how did he get that much soul in the first place? im guessing his secret is some arcane dark magic blood ritual used to harvest souls of innocents during the harvest moon.
On November 16 2012 21:45 Saber96 wrote: Can you upload a recent performance of the latest version of Parting's WonWonWon? I haven't got a GSL Ticket (shame on me!) and I follow the build order but am making a mistake somewhere, and I don't know where it is. I've had delayed warp gate (finishes at 8:30 instead of 8:00) and less units than normal.
If this isn't possible, thanks anyway. This build is the Protoss equivilent of salvation! :D
I actually have the same problem with WG research. Finishes later than it should, and it seems that it's never chronoboosted, so it makes me wonder.
Do you guys make a probe at 17? Like is it better to: Nexus forge pylon (probe????) gate cannon
I feel like I move out late because the extra probe delays my gate so much that my robo + WG tech are delaying me more than the less minerals from cutting the probe...
Variations
I also noticed that PartinG uses stargate gas timings, which I find odd. Most people on ladder go 6:00 3rd and 6:25 4th, while at BWC parting went like 5:45 3rd and 7:00 4th. I wonder if its better or just mind games...
I noticed, that Parting in his 1st game vs Scarlett actually goes gate before the pylon, so he gets supplyblocked for a tad on 18; haven't tried that variation, but maybe the earlier gate (meaning before the pylon) could be a solution to earlier WG research? I normally went like 16 Nex, (probe here), 17 forge, 17 pylon and then gate & another probe, trying to limit cutting probes to very minimum.
If you nexus first it's kinda fine to be supply blocked for a while imo. The most common ffe builds are, from most economical to least economical and assuming 9 scout:
Nexus First: 9 Pylon (Chronoboost Nexus on 10, 12, and 15 supply) 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon 17 Gateway 18 Cannon (Chronoboost Nexus after placing Cannon and resuming Probe production) 19 and 20 Gas(es) 21 Cyber Core
Forge First, Heavy Econ: 9 Pylon (Chronoboost Nexus on 10, 12, and 15 supply) 14-17 Forge 17 Nexus 18 Pylon 18 Cannon 18 Gateway 19 Both main Assimilators (Chronoboost Nexi continuously once Gateway is placed and 2nd Pylon is finished) @100% Gateway Cyber Core
Forge First, Fast Gateway: 9 Pylon (Chronoboost Nexus on 10, 12, and 15 supply) 14-17 Forge 17 Nexus 17 Gateway 17 Pylon 18 Cannon (Chronoboost Nexus after placing Cannon and resuming Probe production) 19 and 20 Gas(es) 21 Cyber Core
I think if you nex first and then go pylon/probes before gateway/cannon to not cut probes at all, your cannon doesn't finish in time on a lot of maps and the lings run straight across off 14-15 pool. For example on Cloud Kingdom, off the Nexus first variation i posted, you actually have to keep a probe on hold position and be ready to wall off with an extra pylon for a few instants (again, if you see the lings running straight across the map), so it would be trickier if you delayed the cannon for a pylon and/or more probes. On annoying maps to wall like Antiga/Entombed it's even worse since you can't fully wall off.
Very few people these days do the forge first fast gateway variation because you cut a TON of probes with it. I remember only like 1-2 pro games in the last 10-15 ish or so i've watched lately when the p does it.
On November 20 2012 01:58 Teoita wrote: If you nexus first it's kinda fine to be supply blocked for a while imo. The most common ffe builds are, from most economical to least economical and assuming 9 scout:
Nexus First: 9 Pylon (Chronoboost Nexus on 10, 12, and 15 supply) 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon 17 Gateway 18 Cannon (Chronoboost Nexus after placing Cannon and resuming Probe production) 19 and 20 Gas(es) 21 Cyber Core
Forge First, Heavy Econ: 9 Pylon (Chronoboost Nexus on 10, 12, and 15 supply) 14-17 Forge 17 Nexus 18 Pylon 18 Cannon 18 Gateway 19 Both main Assimilators (Chronoboost Nexi continuously once Gateway is placed and 2nd Pylon is finished) @100% Gateway Cyber Core
Forge First, Fast Gateway: 9 Pylon (Chronoboost Nexus on 10, 12, and 15 supply) 14-17 Forge 17 Nexus 17 Gateway 17 Pylon 18 Cannon (Chronoboost Nexus after placing Cannon and resuming Probe production) 19 and 20 Gas(es) 21 Cyber Core
I think if you nex first and then go pylon/probes before gateway/cannon to not cut probes at all, your cannon doesn't finish in time on a lot of maps and the lings run straight across off 14-15 pool. For example on Cloud Kingdom, off the Nexus first variation i posted, you actually have to keep a probe on hold position and be ready to wall off with an extra pylon for a few instants (again, if you see the lings running straight across the map), so it would be trickier if you delayed the cannon for a pylon and/or more probes. On annoying maps to wall like Antiga/Entombed it's even worse since you can't fully wall off.
Very few people these days do the forge first fast gateway variation because you cut a TON of probes with it. I remember only like 1-2 pro games in the last 10-15 ish or so i've watched lately when the p does it.
For the Forge First, Heavy econ, you can actually go gateway before Cannon against a 15 pool. So 17 pylon, probe, 18 gateway, 18 cannon, go into standard Chronoing probes and building gases etc~
Has anyone tried this build on condemned ridge? I've been doing MC's 7 gate 1 gas all-in on that map because I'm unsure if that map is too large or not for this build.
On November 21 2012 01:45 DrowSwordsman wrote: Has anyone tried this build on condemned ridge? I've been doing MC's 7 gate 1 gas all-in on that map because I'm unsure if that map is too large or not for this build.
Thanks!
If Parting has done it on crossposi on Entombed, I'm pretty sure Condemned isn't too big. + the build is unbeatable + it wont matter a lot anyways since you have warpins.
I love this build! Have been pulling it off in almost every PvZ that I have played as of late. Thanks for giving more insight into make my build more tighter, because before I just did my own variant of the Parting Immortal All-in
On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote: I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote: I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
Day9 did a daily on this build. Even though this guide is informative enough as it is, if you want to see Parting's execution it's worth the watch. Day9 actually throws in quite a bit of useful insight with it as well.
On November 22 2012 10:38 Gono wrote: Why doesn't anyone burrow banelings to stall? Just wondering. At worst he'll be behind on immortals from making an obs.
Zerg would have to invest in burrow/baneling tech before confirming that the all-in is coming, and getting this tech early against a robo-expand build would get Zerg behind. This is so because the all-in already incorporates an obs after starting to move out, so the baneling trap would have to be just outside the Protoss base, any other time and it wouldn't ever work.
Even if Zerg decides to blind counter the build or somehow can confirm it early enough for this to work, I can only assume that there would be other far better options than relying on a lucky burrowed baneling hit.
On November 22 2012 10:38 Gono wrote: Why doesn't anyone burrow banelings to stall? Just wondering. At worst he'll be behind on immortals from making an obs.
No the way the timings work in the matchup burrow wouldn't in time to get banelings in a decent position, plus burrowed banes are kind of a coin flip.
On November 22 2012 10:54 Moosegills wrote: work in the matchup burrow wouldn't in time to get banelings in a decent position, plus burrowed banes are kind of a coin flip.
On November 22 2012 10:54 Moosegills wrote: work in the matchup burrow wouldn't in time to get banelings in a decent position, plus burrowed banes are kind of a coin flip.
A coin flip is better than a loss.
You still lose. Watch any of PartinG's games and he always has an obs.
On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote: I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
On November 19 2012 08:14 monk. wrote: I interviewed Parting twice at WCS and because he won a big tournament, he revealed the secret to his immortal/sentry push. Stay tuned!
I actually find the immortal sentry all-in fairly easy to stop, but perhaps that's because my level of opponents aren't top tier.
I offrace zerg playing UMS or against low-master friends, and I find it that as long as my BO/macro is fairly crisp, and that I have ~10 roaches backed up by 3 dozen or so lings around the 9:00 mark, I can straight up kill the first poke of the protoss or at least waste a TON of FF energy which basically destroys the push.
What would a better protoss do if a lot of roach/ling is scouted around 9:00? Mass up additional zealots at home?
Anyway my tip for stopping this all-in is not be greedy on droning, have units ready for a 3-flank A-move into the protoss ball as soon as he moves out far enough away from the natural. The first flank facing the protoss ball, 1 flank to come in from the left/right side then swing 90 degrees attacking from behind, and the last flank coming in from either the left or right side.
I feel even though my drone saturation could be better having pumped out earlier units, I still end up ahead if the protoss decides to mass up more as I'm on 3 bases and can either pump out a round of drone to get ahead at any time, or grab all 6 gases for infestors.
On November 22 2012 18:29 EngrishTeacher wrote: I actually find the immortal sentry all-in fairly easy to stop, but perhaps that's because my level of opponents aren't top tier.
I offrace zerg playing UMS or against low-master friends, and I find it that as long as my BO/macro is fairly crisp, and that I have ~10 roaches backed up by 3 dozen or so lings around the 9:00 mark, I can straight up kill the first poke of the protoss or at least waste a TON of FF energy which basically destroys the push.
I think if the Protoss is sufficiently careful with his push, you won't be able to just kill his army as he moves across the map. Baiting forcefields / wasting Sentry energy will help you out a ton though, as this build doesn't have a ton of forcefields.
Parting on the secret of his Immortal Sentry all-in, from the interview [paraphrased]: "I do several things very differently from other players, including my shuttle micro [warp prism], my build order, and my army movements. That is all I am going to say for now, you can imagine the rest." Then he added, while laughing, "Ok, there is no big secret."
For a long time, i didn't have ANY problem to deal with this type of all in.
I am High Master Zerg.
I did :
_ Usual 3 Hatch gazless _ 5:50 : Gas x2
If I scout 1 gas at natural ( or 2 ), i go for an hydra build
_ T2 1st ( with 100 gas ) then Speedling ==> 3rd and 4th gas
_ Hydralisk Den when T2 finish ( then range upgrade ) _When 60 drones, Macro hatch, produce many overlords _ After produce many overlord, begin Speedling productions ( around 9min )
With this lings, you can deny a " fast " 3rd, or forcing the protoss to use FF or stay a little bit longer at home. By only producing lings, you will get a LOT of gas. When range upgrade is finish, produce as many hydra as you can.
If the opponent goes for a nice and early robo all in, the timing would be close, but close enough. You will have the hydras in time. Then just defend with your Hydra/Speedling army, try to multifront him and focus the prism for exemple. Most of the time i didn't need any micro, just A+click and i just CRUSHED every Immo/Sentry all in very very easely.
In case of the Protoss don't attack :
_ If he put 3rd base with Sentry/Immo army, just deny it with many many lings, then attack with your lings + hydras. _ If he doesn't put any 3rd base, i have a smooth transition : => put down a Roach Warren + Spire + Evo Chamber => Stop producing Hydras after something like 20 hydras => 5th and 6th gas, rebuild drones and saturate the gas => Produce Roaches , then Corruptor
You can have a max-out army Roaches/Hydras/Corruptor +1/+1 around 13min. If he finally took 3rd, you can tr to destroy it ( doesnt work on any map ), if he stayed at home( on 2 bases), just force him to turtle.
Against Stargate build ( All-in or just 5-6 Pheonix pressure ), you are in a very good position. If he take Fast 3rd on a map that you know you won't be able to deny with Hydras ( they are very slow ), you can just cancel your Hydralisk Den, and you will be in a position, where around 8-9min you didn't produce any gas-dependant unit like Roaches or anything else, wich means that you ate in a wonderful position to engage late game. Usually i put insta 4rd + Infestation pit + double evo. I would want to have 4 bases saturations ( with all gas ), rushing the Broodlords. When the infestation pit is finish, i can produce many many Infest because i didnt use a lot of gas since the beginning of the game ( i can produce like 8-9 infest for the 12min mark ), and then i can have broodlord before 15:30min. By rushing the broodlords, you just will weak in a little timing where you only ill have Speedling/Infest ( 12-13min ) or Speedling/Infest/Corruptor ( 14-15min ) but its pretty ok because you have a LOT of infestor at this moment.
[B]If the opponent goes for a nice and early robo all in, the timing would be close, but close enough. You will have the hydras in time. Then just defend with your Hydra/Speedling army, try to multifront him and focus the prism for exemple. Most of the time i didn't need any micro, just A+click and i just CRUSHED every Immo/Sentry all in very very easely.
Could we get a replay? I don't believe pros would be having so much trouble if the solution was so simple. Are you playing against people with poor forcefields and no guardian shield?
So I just got 12pool roach busted right at the timing when theres a single cannon and your robo is beginning immortal production. Since there is no scout in this build, how am I supposed to stop that? I have a replay, but it is on hots. Just ignore my chat, I was coming off a long day of losses when I tried it.
Also, are there any games of parting specifically holding off cheeses like 10 pools etc that I can look at? While I haven't died to one yet, I don't feel like my opponents had strong enough micro.
Either deviate from the build and scout (i recommend at least checking for a third at 4:20 ish) or accept your build is risky and will die to Zerg busts.
For ladder play, scouting is definitely the better choice.
On November 24 2012 19:44 Gono wrote: Why didn't anyone throw in some busts on parting in the bwc? I mean, they pretty much knew he was doing it.
Probably because they thought that high level player like Parting will manage to defend the attack and they will fall back in economy and be in bad position. I can't see any other reason, because you are right, they absolutely knew what was coming . But yea for sure it's interesting how nobody didn't do some crazy shit before the push knowing how strong the all in is, but i don't understand this game at all so i'm just talking trash. ^_^
On November 22 2012 18:29 EngrishTeacher wrote: I actually find the immortal sentry all-in fairly easy to stop, but perhaps that's because my level of opponents aren't top tier.
I offrace zerg playing UMS or against low-master friends, and I find it that as long as my BO/macro is fairly crisp, and that I have ~10 roaches backed up by 3 dozen or so lings around the 9:00 mark, I can straight up kill the first poke of the protoss or at least waste a TON of FF energy which basically destroys the push.
What would a better protoss do if a lot of roach/ling is scouted around 9:00? Mass up additional zealots at home?
Anyway my tip for stopping this all-in is not be greedy on droning, have units ready for a 3-flank A-move into the protoss ball as soon as he moves out far enough away from the natural. The first flank facing the protoss ball, 1 flank to come in from the left/right side then swing 90 degrees attacking from behind, and the last flank coming in from either the left or right side.
I feel even though my drone saturation could be better having pumped out earlier units, I still end up ahead if the protoss decides to mass up more as I'm on 3 bases and can either pump out a round of drone to get ahead at any time, or grab all 6 gases for infestors.
I mean, this build is working only okay for top-tier players who aren't parting, anyways. You see people lose with it all the time. If scouted, good macro and roach/ling can really kill you.
The exception is if you have legitimately perfect execution - and even top-tier, non-Parting pros don't have perfect execution. Any screw-ups, and you lose the game.
On November 24 2012 18:45 Gono wrote: So I just got 12pool roach busted right at the timing when theres a single cannon and your robo is beginning immortal production. Since there is no scout in this build, how am I supposed to stop that? I have a replay, but it is on hots. Just ignore my chat, I was coming off a long day of losses when I tried it.
Also, are there any games of parting specifically holding off cheeses like 10 pools etc that I can look at? While I haven't died to one yet, I don't feel like my opponents had strong enough micro.
This build isn't supposed to be blindly safe against everything - even PartinG, who goes blind nexus first, scouts to make sure the Zerg is taking a 3rd base. As I said, part of why PartinG plays so greedy is because he is metagaming Code S level players and the top Korean playstyles. When I do this build, I 9 scout with a lowground pylon always.
The OP already covers this too, but maybe people don't read the whole guide :/
"note: on ladder, I would be scared of not scouting for so long versus a Zerg player, so if you aren't comfortable with it, feel free to 9 scout or build a blind 13 Forge and scout with the probe that builds the Forge - the build will still work!"
JD played like shit. Only 65 drones by 8 minutes is like midmaster NA level of macro. He'll get better i'm sure but he straight up deserved to lose to that.
On December 08 2012 16:13 Jowj wrote: JD played like shit. Only 65 drones by 8 minutes is like midmaster NA level of macro. He'll get better i'm sure but he straight up deserved to lose to that.
That is because you cut drones at 60 to hold sentry immortal all in. 66 drones is the MAX you can have and thats already very greedy. Sure Jaedong didn't do very well, but not having enough drones wasn't the reason he lost, he just engaged like a foreigner. Dont criticize good players if you are bad and are mid master lol.
On December 08 2012 16:20 RandomRice wrote: Wat.... You want to cut at that drone count to hold this. He had roach speed and army to win. Just got way out of position
He had less than the optimal number of drones. Also I apologize, I said 65 drones but I meant 65 supply. He had 65 supply at 8 minutes which is pretty awful.
On December 08 2012 16:13 Jowj wrote: JD played like shit. Only 65 drones by 8 minutes is like midmaster NA level of macro. He'll get better i'm sure but he straight up deserved to lose to that.
That is because you cut drones at 60 to hold sentry immortal all in. 66 drones is the MAX you can have and thats already very greedy. Sure Jaedong didn't do very well, but not having enough drones wasn't the reason he lost, he just engaged like a foreigner. Dont criticize good players if you are bad and are mid master lol.
This is actually incorrect. It's a finer detail, but you actually want to cut closer to the 54 drone range. This allows you not only more units, but also earlier units to either base trade or engage at a key 9:10-9:40 timing, before any non-sentry/immortal units are out. About half a year ago, everyone was cutting around 60 and holding off inefficient pushes, but you can't do this versus the best, fastest Parting-style pushes.
Also, that game he was at such low supply because he invested at least 8 lings in the early game to kill the rocks between the natural and third. In my opinion, this is not the correct way to hold an immortal all-in. Yes, killing the rocks makes it not auto-loss if the Protoss gets up the ramp, but imo, it's better to get more economy and try to stop Protoss from getting up the ramp in the first place. Either way, this build is just really hard to defend, especially on Ohana.
On December 08 2012 16:13 Jowj wrote: JD played like shit. Only 65 drones by 8 minutes is like midmaster NA level of macro. He'll get better i'm sure but he straight up deserved to lose to that.
That is because you cut drones at 60 to hold sentry immortal all in. 66 drones is the MAX you can have and thats already very greedy. Sure Jaedong didn't do very well, but not having enough drones wasn't the reason he lost, he just engaged like a foreigner. Dont criticize good players if you are bad and are mid master lol.
This is actually incorrect. It's a finer detail, but you actually want to cut closer to the 54 drone range. This allows you not only more units, but also earlier units to either base trade or engage at a key 9:10-9:40 timing, before any non-sentry/immortal units are out. About half a year ago, everyone was cutting around 60 and holding off inefficient pushes, but you can't do this versus the best, fastest Parting-style pushes.
Also, that game he was at such low supply because he invested at least 8 lings in the early game to kill the rocks between the natural and third. In my opinion, this is not the correct way to hold an immortal all-in. Yes, killing the rocks makes it not auto-loss if the Protoss gets up the ramp, but imo, it's better to get more economy and try to stop Protoss from getting up the ramp in the first place. Either way, this build is just really hard to defend, especially on Ohana.
I didn't even think about the lings in the earlier game that's an excellent point. He probably would have ended up with ~70 supply then, which is alright I guess, not the greatest but not the worst. So, I was overly harsh but still JD should have macroed better.
However, the bit about not engaging/baiting many ff in the 9:10 > 9:40 window (depending on hhis move out) is another super important point. Since he had not done that I would have rather seen at least an attempted basetrade than a flank with no spines.
Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely.
http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus.
Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid.
On December 10 2012 04:33 Zennith wrote: Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely.
http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus.
Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid.
On December 10 2012 04:33 Zennith wrote: Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely.
http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus.
Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid.
This is pretty damn hilarious I might add.
It's not. Actually TLO uses this to great effect from time to time.
On December 08 2012 16:22 Jowj wrote: He had less than the optimal number of drones. Also I apologize, I said 65 drones but I meant 65 supply. He had 65 supply at 8 minutes which is pretty awful.
the early pressure (zealot/stalker/stalker poke) forced units and jaedong overreacted because his scouting was insufficient. he probably thought it was an earlier warpgate attack
Hey I have this video kinda laying out a PvZ all-in from Rain. I'm not sure where to put it, but I'd like to help people and share it so forgive me if this is the wrong location!
On December 13 2012 12:38 ROOTAxeltoss wrote: Hey I have this video kinda laying out a PvZ all-in from Rain. I'm not sure where to put it, but I'd like to help people and share it so forgive me if this is the wrong location!
Thanks for sharing - that's a nice video, I'll add it to the OP.
EPT
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