EPTYou want to cut at that drone count to hold this. He had roach speed and army to win. Just got way out of position
[G] STParting's Soulful Immortal All-in (PvZ) - Page 7
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RandomRice
United States303 Posts
You want to cut at that drone count to hold this. He had roach speed and army to win. Just got way out of position | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On December 08 2012 16:20 RandomRice wrote: Wat.... You want to cut at that drone count to hold this. He had roach speed and army to win. Just got way out of position He had like 48 drones it was weird. | ||
Jowj
United States248 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2012 16:19 phodacbiet wrote: That is because you cut drones at 60 to hold sentry immortal all in. 66 drones is the MAX you can have and thats already very greedy. Sure Jaedong didn't do very well, but not having enough drones wasn't the reason he lost, he just engaged like a foreigner. Dont criticize good players if you are bad and are mid master lol. This is actually incorrect. It's a finer detail, but you actually want to cut closer to the 54 drone range. This allows you not only more units, but also earlier units to either base trade or engage at a key 9:10-9:40 timing, before any non-sentry/immortal units are out. About half a year ago, everyone was cutting around 60 and holding off inefficient pushes, but you can't do this versus the best, fastest Parting-style pushes. Also, that game he was at such low supply because he invested at least 8 lings in the early game to kill the rocks between the natural and third. In my opinion, this is not the correct way to hold an immortal all-in. Yes, killing the rocks makes it not auto-loss if the Protoss gets up the ramp, but imo, it's better to get more economy and try to stop Protoss from getting up the ramp in the first place. Either way, this build is just really hard to defend, especially on Ohana. | ||
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Jowj
United States248 Posts
On December 08 2012 16:28 monk. wrote: This is actually incorrect. It's a finer detail, but you actually want to cut closer to the 54 drone range. This allows you not only more units, but also earlier units to either base trade or engage at a key 9:10-9:40 timing, before any non-sentry/immortal units are out. About half a year ago, everyone was cutting around 60 and holding off inefficient pushes, but you can't do this versus the best, fastest Parting-style pushes. Also, that game he was at such low supply because he invested at least 8 lings in the early game to kill the rocks between the natural and third. In my opinion, this is not the correct way to hold an immortal all-in. Yes, killing the rocks makes it not auto-loss if the Protoss gets up the ramp, but imo, it's better to get more economy and try to stop Protoss from getting up the ramp in the first place. Either way, this build is just really hard to defend, especially on Ohana. I didn't even think about the lings in the earlier game that's an excellent point. He probably would have ended up with ~70 supply then, which is alright I guess, not the greatest but not the worst. So, I was overly harsh but still JD should have macroed better. However, the bit about not engaging/baiting many ff in the 9:10 > 9:40 window (depending on hhis move out) is another super important point. Since he had not done that I would have rather seen at least an attempted basetrade than a flank with no spines. | ||
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Csong
Canada396 Posts
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
On December 08 2012 17:26 Csong wrote: sigh as if there wasnt enough protoss immortal sentry allining, now you guys make a guide?! why! Q.Q http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 I just want to point out that that has been around for ~3 months longer than this thread. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
http://drop.sc/282829 - this is a replay where he retreats to try to save his base. http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus. Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid. | ||
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skorched
United States81 Posts
On December 10 2012 04:33 Zennith wrote: Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely. http://drop.sc/282829 - this is a replay where he retreats to try to save his base. http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus. Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid. This is pretty damn hilarious I might add. | ||
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bretfart
114 Posts
On December 10 2012 08:21 skorched wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 10 2012 04:33 Zennith wrote: Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely. http://drop.sc/282829 - this is a replay where he retreats to try to save his base. http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus. Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid. This is pretty damn hilarious I might add. It's not. Actually TLO uses this to great effect from time to time. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On December 08 2012 16:22 Jowj wrote: He had less than the optimal number of drones. Also I apologize, I said 65 drones but I meant 65 supply. He had 65 supply at 8 minutes which is pretty awful. the early pressure (zealot/stalker/stalker poke) forced units and jaedong overreacted because his scouting was insufficient. he probably thought it was an earlier warpgate attack | ||
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Axeltoss
United States283 Posts
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On December 13 2012 12:38 ROOTAxeltoss wrote: Hey I have this video kinda laying out a PvZ all-in from Rain. I'm not sure where to put it, but I'd like to help people and share it so forgive me if this is the wrong location! Thanks for sharing - that's a nice video, I'll add it to the OP.  | ||
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