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On November 06 2012 14:18 DropTester wrote:
I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing?
I don't usually, but if you can get blink out in time for the push, it could be good to make 7 stalkers to blink and 1-shot infestors that are out of range of your templar. I don't see a reason to make more than 7 stalkers until Z has broods.
Also, I've found myself skipping the mothership more and more, relying on just gateway units to handle the broodlords. It's been surprisingly effective. I'm not sure how long that will last.
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Italy12248 Posts
On November 06 2012 14:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 14:18 DropTester wrote:
I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing? I don't usually, but if you can get blink out in time for the push, it could be good to make 7 stalkers to blink and 1-shot infestors that are out of range of your templar. I don't see a reason to make more than 7 stalkers until Z has broods. Also, I've found myself skipping the mothership more and more, relying on just gateway units to handle the broodlords. It's been surprisingly effective. I'm not sure how long that will last.
Waaait...what? Skipping/delaying mothership? For how long? Replays yo!
I've only seen HerO fight infestor/broodlod succesfully without it and even then, he just gets ridicolous flanks with groups of blink stalkers and templar so he gets sick positioning/feedbacks off.
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This is very good. Yesterday was zerg day (7 games, seven zergs, or randoms drawing zerg!), and I exclusively did this build. Very sloppily of course, I'm only diamond after all. It's surprisingly effective! I mostly encountered two things: lotsa roaches, which with 5 immortals or more did not even require forcefields ; quick tech to hive + BLs. Man this last one leaves a sorry zerg ass. They were all crushed by the pre-BL bust.
Zerg friends, beware. You cannot rush to hive against this. You will die.
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That build can work, but I think the 3g robo option is better for a few reasons. First, the fast robo means fast observers. For a while, I tried to take my third before observers, and I found that I was constantly fearing the roach max. Preparing for the roach max left me in a bad spot when Zerg went for infestor or muta play. Secondly, I think my expansion is quite a bit safer. If you make 5 stalkers like that, you won't have nearly as much DPS as I'm getting with my zealot/sentry/immortal composition. And the fast robo means you have time to get an observer to watch his tech, a second observer to spot his army movements, and enough immortals to defend the push.
On November 06 2012 17:40 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 14:47 kcdc wrote:On November 06 2012 14:18 DropTester wrote:
I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing? I don't usually, but if you can get blink out in time for the push, it could be good to make 7 stalkers to blink and 1-shot infestors that are out of range of your templar. I don't see a reason to make more than 7 stalkers until Z has broods. Also, I've found myself skipping the mothership more and more, relying on just gateway units to handle the broodlords. It's been surprisingly effective. I'm not sure how long that will last. Waaait...what? Skipping/delaying mothership? For how long? Replays yo! I've only seen HerO fight infestor/broodlod succesfully without it and even then, he just gets ridicolous flanks with groups of blink stalkers and templar so he gets sick positioning/feedbacks off.
It seems to work in situations where you know you can damage economy. If Zerg can sit back and make 25 broods, you can't possibly win with just gateway units. But if you can snipe his fresh bases and put a timer on his economy so that he has to start moving around on the map with 8 or 10 broodlords, gateway units often get the job done quite nicely.
The first replay is on Condemned Ridge which is a huge open map which forces you to spread your bases after your first 3. I feel confident that I'll be able to pull him apart although I get a little nervous when my first few attempts get shut down. Then I drop his main while hitting his 5th, and he loses his hive and spire which forces him to attack with just 9 broodlords. Easy win for team stalker.
http://drop.sc/271882
The second replay is on Cloud Kingdom which does allow for Zerg to sit on spines, but in this game, Zerg instead went for infestor-roach pressure before going hive. I figured that his defenses would be weak and I'd be able to do big damage with my counter push. I wound up killing some bases and then got chased away by broodlords. I kept denying economy, and he never got his broodlord count high enough to beat stalkers.
http://drop.sc/271883
I had one on Ohana too which was my best example of GW units beating broods, but I can't seem to find it. The key is dealing damage to force the action before Z has too many broods.
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For you Teoita:
http://drop.sc/272771
Shows how hard GW units can rock broods in the right situations. Side note: I was getting really annoying lag spikes that seemed to find a way to happen mostly at the starts of fights.
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Italy12248 Posts
Ok what the fuck did i just watch.
Seriously that fight at 20-21 doesn't make any sense to me. What the hell.
Questions:
1) Why warp in a round of zealots when he pushes back to your proxy pylon with his broods? My brain goes into OMG NEED STALKERS MODE in that spot.
2) Why not feedback the queens and infestors instead of storming?
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1) I needed zealots to handle the broodlings and zerglings (and what was left of the roaches). If I warp in stalkers there, my archons are the front line of tanking, they die, and I lose. I do think it's interesting that I went for a round of pure zealots in a situation where I was fighting broodlords and I had only 2 stalkers. When I watched the replay, I didn't even notice that the decision would have seemed weird. I was thinking I need zealots to stretch the fight out and push the ground back, and then I can warp in stalkers in the next batch to kill the broods.
Archons keep the broodlings and zerglings off your stalkers to an extent, but I like to have a nice wall of zealots to push forward to get in range. Zealots and archons push toward the BL's, and when the time is right, I blink under. If you blink under too soon, you get rocked. It's important to not blink too far ahead of your archons because the archons keep your stalkers alive by cleaning up the lings. A lot of times, you can get in range to hit a couple broods without blowing your blink cooldown. This is even better as the zealots will remain in front.
Also, you don't need that many stalkers. I was 2-shotting one broodlord at a time, and it worked just fine. I use the stalkers as a strike force rather than using stalkers as my main army.
2) There was a lot of shit there and I couldn't tell what was what. I also got a huge lag spike at the start of that fight or I would have feedbacked the infestors early. The start of that fight wasn't microed at all--I started retreating as soon as I could control. At the end, I was storming hoping to hit broods and infestors at the same time.
3) You didn't ask, but I had 3/3/0 and he had 1/0/1. He also only had 9 fungals at the start of the fight, and you can cut a bunch of those out with feedback. If you can micro, you'll beat broods unless there are 20 of them.
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(I'm isurusGool, now banned for balance whine, so i told my friend Shard to post in my behalf)
My take on the PvZ build, off of Parting's Opening into really fast 3rd with a slight 5gate pressure.
http://drop.sc/273102
isurusGool v iSMike (GM Zerg)
I think its a sick build, 3/3 zealots just rip through broodlings and then archons do the insane dps.
This might actually change the pvz matchup a lot!
Kcdc god bless you.
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Nice rep. The main difference between what you did in that replay and what I do is that you took a 6:30 third off of 1 gateway whereas I take a 7:30 third off of 3 gates and a robo. I really think that the 3 gate robo option is much better.
Most importantly, I have much earlier observers which allows me to scout and react to Zerg's lair tech path. I have an observer in Zerg's base shortly before his lair completes. This lets me know what to prepare for as soon as Zerg starts down that path. You didn't have a robo complete until 9:30 at which point you think, "Oh shit, a million roaches might be coming--I better start immortal production!" Your first observer finally comes out at 10:30. If he'd gone muta instead of infestor, you'd be dead.
Secondly, I have earlier access to immortals. And lastly, my economy relative to Zerg's economy is in the same spot (or maybe a little better) that yours is relative to Zerg's. At 12 minutes, you'd be around 130 food if you hadn't lost anything which is right where my build is. Meanwhile, my 3g pressure slightly stalls Zerg's economy at 8 minutes with a little better effect than your later pressure which hits when Zerg is more or less done droning anyway.
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On November 07 2012 22:12 Teoita wrote:
Ok what the fuck did i just watch.
Seriously that fight at 20-21 doesn't make any sense to me. What the hell.
Questions:
1) Why warp in a round of zealots when he pushes back to your proxy pylon with his broods? My brain goes into OMG NEED STALKERS MODE in that spot.
2) Why not feedback the queens and infestors instead of storming?
Big thing to note - kcdc had a huge upgrade advantage in that game. The broodlings were doing 1 damage per attack. The lings were doing 2. Does this fight look the same if the upgrades are similar? If not, I wonder what timing would be appropriate to add the stargate back into play (i.e. at the point when the upgrades are the same and they have BLs and Infestors).
Don't get me wrong, I think it's amazing that gateway units are killing BL/Infestor (I wanna do it too!) - I'm just looking for potential flies in the ointment.
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Yeah, you want SG unless there's some situation that makes you confident that you can end the game w/o it. I personally have more fun w/o the SG (the mothership is so damn sloooooow), so I usually try to make it work w/o, but I think the MS is probably a higher % win play than the extra archons you get w/ the gas.
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On November 07 2012 14:10 kcdc wrote:For you Teoita: http://drop.sc/272771Shows how hard GW units can rock broods in the right situations. Side note: I was getting really annoying lag spikes that seemed to find a way to happen mostly at the starts of fights.
Hey, I just have a critique of this specific game...not saying you didn't do well...but your opponent had barely any upgrades at the big fight around 20mins...You won by quite a small margin in that fight (although there was lag on your part) I feel like the fight should have went in the zergs favor if he had properly upgraded his units...he was at 1-1 for his melee and 0-1 for his roaches which I feel is what swung the fight into your favor (you had 3-3)
P.S. You did point out something that actually never occurred to me, that using zealots to tank the broodlings can help you push your archons under the broods if they don't have enough other army supply... Thanks a bunch for that =]
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On November 08 2012 18:15 Cloudshade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 14:10 kcdc wrote:For you Teoita: http://drop.sc/272771Shows how hard GW units can rock broods in the right situations. Side note: I was getting really annoying lag spikes that seemed to find a way to happen mostly at the starts of fights. Hey, I just have a critique of this specific game...not saying you didn't do well...but your opponent had barely any upgrades at the big fight around 20mins...You won by quite a small margin in that fight (although there was lag on your part) I feel like the fight should have went in the zergs favor if he had properly upgraded his units...he was at 1-1 for his melee and 0-1 for his roaches which I feel is what swung the fight into your favor (you had 3-3) P.S. You did point out something that actually never occurred to me, that using zealots to tank the broodlings can help you push your archons under the broods if they don't have enough other army supply... Thanks a bunch for that =]
Yeah, the upgrades make a difference. It would have been more normal for Zerg to be at 2-0-2 there with 3-0-3 on the way. Or since he was going for midgame aggression with roaches and infestors, it might have made more sense to go for missile upgrades insteadof melee upgrades.
On the other hand, if I didn't get a lag spike, I would have been able to micro the start of the fight which would have let me feedback a bunch of infestors, storm the broodlords, and keep my army together rather than have halves of it run into 2 different spine walls.
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On the topic of the SG timing, your first vortex becomes available about 5 minutes after you start your SG (assuming 5 chronoboost on mothership). The standard defensive hive timing is 11 minutes, which can get Zerg his first broodlords at 15 minutes. Your aggression should slow him down some, and you can win the fight with just storm, archons, zealots and stalkers if he pushes with a low broodlord count, so I think it's reasonable to time up your first vortex for 18 or 19 minutes. This translates to a 13 or 14 minute stargate timing.
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Hello kcdc. I gave this strategy a couple tries on the ladder with some good results: a couple wins, a couple losses. The overall feeling was pretty good. I could tell that the losses were caused simply by my lack of familiarity with the opening (everything was coming out a bit slow).
Afterwards I was analysing your replays and attempting to hit all the timings just right agaist the computer, and I have found that to use this opening optimally requires a great deal of precision. However, when done correctly (that is to say, precisely) this build indeed safely secures an amazingly fast third base, and gives Protoss both the recon and tech access needed to respond properly to the zerg opponent's particular playstyle.
so far I have been unable to complete the second and third gateways in time to line up with a warpgate research chronoboosted 3 times without cutting probes, so I have decided to chronoboost it only twice. I am going to keep familiarizing myself with this opening against the computer and try again on ladder tomorrow.
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Just watched Parting vs Hyun in IPL Hyun Club. Parting went for robo twilight expand quite a few times, and every time, it seemed to put him way behind. Why on earth are phoenix openings and robo twilight openings the standard ways to take a third in PvZ?
Have people been struggling to hold their thirds with this build? For entering a macro game, the opening used in this guide seems to put you in a much stronger position than robo twilight and phoenix openings. Is my build somehow unsafe or are pros just using bad builds? This feels a little like back when I was watching pros go for 2 gate robo expands in PvT when I knew 1 gate expands were perfectly safe and much stronger.
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Wanted to comment that this build has helped me quite a bit in pvz even though i haven't gotten the timings down perfectly following the 5gate+robo infrastructure.
One thing I would like to mention is that due to the early charge you can start using warp prisms MUCH earlier with greater effectiveness compared to normal late game pvz. I've found myself getting a fast robo bay just for gravitic drive and being able to just warp zealots into their main while attacking their 4th.
Overall, seems pretty stable even as a launchpad to transition into stalker/colossus.
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On November 13 2012 13:50 kcdc wrote:
Just watched Parting vs Hyun in IPL Hyun Club. Parting went for robo twilight expand quite a few times, and every time, it seemed to put him way behind. Why on earth are phoenix openings and robo twilight openings the standard ways to take a third in PvZ?
Have people been struggling to hold their thirds with this build? For entering a macro game, the opening used in this guide seems to put you in a much stronger position than robo twilight and phoenix openings. Is my build somehow unsafe or are pros just using bad builds? This feels a little like back when I was watching pros go for 2 gate robo expands in PvT when I knew 1 gate expands were perfectly safe and much stronger.
they're trying to convince the zerg they're 2 basing hoping the zerg will significantly cut econ and tech to mass up roaches which puts them ahead in the later mid-game as zergs stuck with less efficient units.
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On November 13 2012 14:40 iS.Axslav wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 13:50 kcdc wrote:
Just watched Parting vs Hyun in IPL Hyun Club. Parting went for robo twilight expand quite a few times, and every time, it seemed to put him way behind. Why on earth are phoenix openings and robo twilight openings the standard ways to take a third in PvZ?
Have people been struggling to hold their thirds with this build? For entering a macro game, the opening used in this guide seems to put you in a much stronger position than robo twilight and phoenix openings. Is my build somehow unsafe or are pros just using bad builds? This feels a little like back when I was watching pros go for 2 gate robo expands in PvT when I knew 1 gate expands were perfectly safe and much stronger. they're trying to convince the zerg they're 2 basing hoping the zerg will significantly cut econ and tech to mass up roaches which puts them ahead in the later mid-game as zergs stuck with less efficient units.
You think? I suppose robo twilight expand looks sort of like an immortal sentry all-in, but it seemed like Hyun had absolutely no trouble telling them apart. For example, building an observer is a big tell that you're not going for the all-in. And if Zerg scouts the twilight council, there's no question left at all.
Additionally, the response to the immortal sentry all-in doesn't put Zerg in that bad of shape to deal with robo twilight expand. Zerg will still get lair and drone up to about 60 at the proper timings. Then they flood some lings to try to take down some sentries as P leaves his base and/or force P to slow the push down for another warp cycle or two. Those lings are also pretty good against the robo twilight expand because, for a small investment, they often delay P's third base a bit. I suppose that if Zerg thinks P might all-in, he might delay his infestation pit somewhat. That seems like a minor victory considering how much P sacrifices in order to sell the all-in. The build waits for twilight, blink, +2 weapons, 2 extra gas, and a bunch more units before taking a third compared to the fastest safe thirds.
It seems to me that Parting just sees the opening as a standard safe macro play that puts him in good shape the rest of the way. But as I watched his games, I was thinking, "Wow, he has a razor-thin window to push with colossi before broods pop--if Hyun gets any spines, the push can't work. And if Hyun gets broods out, he'll win for sure because Parting's economy is way behind Hyun's."
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EPT
