EPT[G] PvZ Fast Third into Zealot/Immortal Timing - Page 3
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Messi
United States212 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 02 2012 01:52 kcdc wrote: Not a bad idea. I'm not sure how well warp prism harass would work with this build because you don't have the big warpgate stockpile to make the harass powerful, and you can't afford to lose too many units if you want to keep your defense safe. Zerg might be able to simply tail the prism with a dozen lings and be perfectly safe. It's an option to consider tho. you can just make the zealots old-fashioned style and preload them into the warp prism, you can easily drop onto small numbers of lings then. I just prefer the control you have with warp prism, if some roaches suddenly pop while you try to attack the drones you don't immediately lose all your zealots. Maybe it's just because i'm bad at getting up a proxy pylon if i'm not allinning, i got denied way too often if i tried to do a minimal zealot poke. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Awesome guide! | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
I really like this. But if the obs sees consistent roach production to compliment the infestors I still think I'd stick with blink. Timings shouldn't be too punishing as he would have to delay hive and greater spire if he wants to be roach heavier. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 02 2012 02:58 Chronald wrote: This looks a lot like sSonLight's PvZ style. Awesome guide! A couple people have told me this. I'll have to check out sSonLight's stream. Sounds like there should be good info to learn from. On November 02 2012 03:23 MysteryMeat1 wrote: I played this style twice today and won both times. After I took my 3rd i ended up throwing down another forge and got double upgrades. I thought that this made my push a lot stronger and if it did not end the game right there, I had a massive upgrade lead to help fight broodlord infestor later on in the game. Double forge is a great idea for this style. You rely on zealots to tank a lot of low-damage hits from zerglings, infested terrans, and broodlings, and armor upgrades should scale well for this purpose. I'm not sure exactly when to get the second forge--probably right after your twilight council assuming you've scouted an infestation pit. | ||
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Jonicc
Germany25 Posts
I did a guide that explains the build. The timings are not excactly the same but the basic idea is similar. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 02 2012 03:32 Jonicc wrote: For all Germans : I did a guide that explains the build. The timings are not excactly the same but the basic idea is similar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbQHrE3dbVw&list=PLxYgjbQ1p-nJtK23gRPUhjl8iGwk5bSnw&index=1&feature=plpp_video That's a very sentry-heavy style that's quite different than what I'm doing. It works because Zerg is afraid of an immortal/sentry all-in, and for this reason, he delays his infestation pit which in turn delays his hive and broodlords. That can be a very strong play in its own right, but with that style, your army is very vulnerable to chain fungals. I think a more zealot-heavy composition (less sentries and higher economy) will prove to be more robust over time. | ||
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AxiR
Germany944 Posts
It seems like Zerg is completely powerless against this unit composition before broodlords, i think its weird that this hasn't become the standard push to kill the zerg before broodlords considering colloses/stalker can be killed by infestors, spines and corruptors alone. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
I think I'll be learning this and using it as my base build in all my PvZ this season. Cheers. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:17 Nyast wrote: Kcdc, in your replays your upgrades are 2/0 when your attack hits. Is there a reason you're not researching armor upgrade too ? You're investing so much into zealots and immortals, it sounds like you'd have some extra gas to afford more upgrades.. and given the amount of zealots, shouldn't armor be a higher priority to tank damage ? Yes, I suspect that a second forge would improve the build. I'll be experimenting with incorporating double upgrades this week. I'd also like to be able to hit +3 weapons for the attack. It might be possible with better chronoboosting and a more crisp timing on my twilight council. That may come with practice as my execution improves. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:20 kcdc wrote: Yes, I suspect that a second forge would improve the build. I'll be experimenting with incorporating double upgrades this week. I'd also like to be able to hit +3 weapons for the attack. It might be possible with better chronoboosting and a more crisp timing on my twilight council. That may come with practice as my execution improves. You should consider getting +1 Shields too  Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too. | ||
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:26 CecilSunkure wrote: You should consider getting +1 Shields too Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too. I thought shield upgrades only helped immortals if the damage was 10 or below, and that even an archon with 3 shield upgrades would still take 10 damage from a seige tank. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:26 CecilSunkure wrote: You should consider getting +1 Shields too Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too. I don't think it works that way with hardened shields, pretty sure shield upgrades prevent the damage before hardened shields are applied. Looks like I've got some testing to do. On November 02 2012 04:20 Belha wrote: It's just me, or the zealot in the 2nd picture have a sword??? What, you didn't know that 1 in every 1,000 zealots you make is a Samurai Zealot with a Katana? | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:26 CecilSunkure wrote: You should consider getting +1 Shields too Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too. Ya i like adding the twilight council a little bit earlier and get a second forge earlier as well. Depending on what i was scouting I delayed my push a little bit. because i wasn't quite maxed out and broodlords weren't coming for a bit. The nice thing about hitting a bit later is that they will attack with their army to delay while morphing in broodlords. however the bls come about 15-20 seconds too late and i can kill their 4th and 5th base and walk back to mine or depending on support take out a few of the bls. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:20 Belha wrote: It's just me, or the zealot in the 2nd picture have a sword??? He's not just a zealot. He's a MANlot. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
1) The pre-broodlord timing should have 12 gates instead of 10. 2) Double forge is essential for this build. Infested terrans are the biggest enemy of a non-colossus push, and having 2/2 or 3/2 gives you a huge upgrade advantage over them. Chargelots with +2 armor and GS are fantastic in this situation. Additionally, having armor sets you up nicely for the late game, as +3 armor chargelot warpins via a prism are incredibly good vs. defensive spines. As others have mentioned, StarDust aka SsonLight has been pioneering this style lately and has been pretty successful with it. Double forge does have a downside: your margin for error is thinner when setting up the third base. A dedicated roach push can be tricky to hold, so you have to know what you're doing. The observer must also stay alive to sniff out any muta tech, because unscouted mutas will end the game immediately. Personally I think this style is better than the normal colossus pre-broodlord timing because of the easy warp prism harass follow-up. It's possible to prevent the zerg from ever getting a deathball even if the push doesn't outright kill him. Even a mothership won't save you from broodlord infestor, so the best way to counter the deathball is by not allowing it to be made. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 02 2012 06:17 city42 wrote: A couple things: 1) The pre-broodlord timing should have 12 gates instead of 10. 2) Double forge is essential for this build. Infested terrans are the biggest enemy of a non-colossus push, and having 2/2 or 3/2 gives you a huge upgrade advantage over them. Chargelots with +2 armor and GS are fantastic in this situation. Additionally, having armor sets you up nicely for the late game, as +3 armor chargelot warpins via a prism are incredibly good vs. defensive spines. As others have mentioned, StarDust aka SsonLight has been pioneering this style lately and has been pretty successful with it. Double forge does have a downside: your margin for error is thinner when setting up the third base. A dedicated roach push can be tricky to hold, so you have to know what you're doing. The observer must also stay alive to sniff out any muta tech, because unscouted mutas will end the game immediately. Personally I think this style is better than the normal colossus pre-broodlord timing because of the easy warp prism harass follow-up. It's possible to prevent the zerg from ever getting a deathball even if the push doesn't outright kill him. Even a mothership won't save you from broodlord infestor, so the best way to counter the deathball is by not allowing it to be made. Good post. I've gone back and forth on 10 gates vs 12. I think 10 is a good choice if you're taking a fourth and teching mothership behind the push because the extra infrastructure/tech keeps your money low for at least the start of the push. Once you're no longer building immortals and you have your mothership started, you do start to pile up a resource bank, so extra gates are necessary unless you're going straight into a stargate transition--in which case you need more stargates instead. If you want to go for a stronger push with slower mothership but more aggressive warp prism harass, 12 gates is the better option. I wouldn't call double forge essential, but it sounds like it should be a good addition. Infested terrans get mowed down by storms pretty quickly. On top of the reduced zergling and infested terran damage, I'd be most interested in armor upgrades for the improved broodlord/broodling tanking. 3/3 zealots can be surprisingly good against broodlords if you have storms to wear the broodlords down and stalkers to finish them off. Having zealots really slows the damage you take, allowing the storm damage to take effect. | ||
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