EPTThanks a lot for posting this build!
Do you squeeze in warp prism harrass with zealots/maybe Immortal drops while you are building up or purely focus on making the push before broodlords as deadly as you can?
[G] PvZ Fast Third into Zealot/Immortal Timing - Page 2
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Bam Lee
2336 Posts
Thanks a lot for posting this build! Do you squeeze in warp prism harrass with zealots/maybe Immortal drops while you are building up or purely focus on making the push before broodlords as deadly as you can? | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
i ll be reading it later and give some thoughts  | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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NET
United States703 Posts
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 01 2012 19:35 Natalya wrote: How would banelings do against this? something like a ling infestor spine baneling composition? Or are you confident enough that your storm can clear the banes? What if Z uses bain rain then (targeting sentries then HT then zealots)? Do you usually do well against bane rain? Toss can take banelings in the face with Immortals, Archons or Zealots and be perfectly fine. Especially if the zealots are spread a little. Banelings are cost efficient when they role into Sentries or a bunch of clumped Stalkers. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 01 2012 14:46 Whitewing wrote: This particular composition is super powerful until broodlords are out, have you considered adding in immortal drops with a speed warp prism to snipe the spire tech? I skip the support bay entirely, so I can't get the speed upgrade. 300 gas for prism speed is a lot, but it might be worth considering after mothership. I do recommend using slow prisms, but I wouldn't want to put immortals in them until Z has broodlords and the immortals are no longer valuable. On November 01 2012 15:15 Markwerf wrote: I just don't ever see this holding stephano style which you are likely to evoke with the zealot pressure. Without forcefield abuse that is simply not stoppable imo, a few immortals is cool and all but they can't stop mass roach kiling you. As such I feel it's a metagame thing and don't like it, you can always transition into the zealot style later once you determined they are skipping the roach phase mostly. Dunno what to say other than try it out and post replays here. I don't take the Stephano push lightly--I honestly find this build to be the easiest way to take a third against it. And you do have plenty of sentries by the time the roach push would start (around 10 minutes). You just also have a bunch of zealots and immortals with enough economy to take some damage and still be ahead. I find the zealots are very helpful because they deal with lings so well which means you don't need as many forcefields, and they tank for your sentries and immortals so you don't lose gas units during the defense. On November 01 2012 15:45 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: In the section where you talk about how to respond to mutas, you don't mention building defensive cannons in mineral lines; is this just implied, or do you actually skip getting cannons versus the mutas? If you decide that you'll be able to attack before the mutas hit, you can go ahead and skip the cannons. The goal is to pin the mutas home, and making a bunch of cannons will weaken your attack, making it vulnerable to dying to the muta/ling. If you decide to play defensively, sure, make cannons. On November 01 2012 16:54 Bam Lee wrote: wow looks like a really nice guide. I always thought zealots are a bit underrated in the matchup. Thanks a lot for posting this build! Do you squeeze in warp prism harrass with zealots/maybe Immortal drops while you are building up or purely focus on making the push before broodlords as deadly as you can? Answered above, but I do recommend making prisms for zealot drops before broodlords. I don't get the support bay, so I can't upgrade prism speed. Zealot drops are always nice. Also, a prism can be really good with your main army as a mobile pylon and life-boat for expensive units. Check out LeiYa's stream. She's godly with prism control (the #1 reason she's top GM IMO), and she always goes for prism harass in midgame and then incorporates the prism into her main army for her push. On November 01 2012 18:39 Teoita wrote: Quick questions, what's the sentry count you go for when you take your third? How many do you want for a 3base pre-bl timing/to defend roach max/if you see mutas? 1 sentry when I build the nexus. 3 more sentries (4 total) for my production round immediately following the zealot poke. I recommend putting one of the low-energy sentries at your natural and the higher-energy sentry along with 2 of the new ones at your third. Eventually, you want to get up to about 6 sentries with this build. If he's going for the 3-base roach all-in, you can make more if you need them. | ||
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brofestor
Singapore101 Posts
thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)? and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third. | ||
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
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totalpigeon
United Kingdom162 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 01 2012 22:19 brofestor wrote: def fast third seems like the best way to play pvz now imo. thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)? and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third. I personally don't like phoenix openings vs Zerg. Yes, you'll do some damage, but stargate+4 phoenixes is 600/600 that will be mostly useless after your opening harass is done. I think you're better off expanding quicker and dumping those 1200 resources into combat units. And regarding the soft zealot pressure, if you re-read the guide, you'll see that I'm not expecting the zealot pressure to do damage. Most of the time, I'm just warping in defensive zealots on Zerg's side of the map and walking them straight home. But Zerg has to respect 4 zealots and 1 stalker at his third at 7:40. If he builds no defense, he will lose drones and possibly his hatchery. I'm effectively trading a pylon to stall Zerg's droning before 8 minutes. This move isn't required, but it does weaken any roach max push that Zerg would want to do to take out your third. I think it helps. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
1) Why delay the second gas that much? Is it to get that fast cyber core without cutting probes? 2) Why not get +1 faster? If you are concerned about minerals, you could go double gas and have two probes mining on each for a while; BabyKnight does it a lot when doing similar builds. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
2) I'm not sure when I got +1 weapons in that replay. I intend to get it right after I start my sentry. You can play with getting it earlier, but I'm not sure it would do much good. I like the gas/mineral income I'm currently getting with this build, and if I stick with those mining timings, right after the sentry is when I can afford +1 weapons. If I changed things around to get +1 weapons faster, I might have better zealot vs zergling efficiency earlier, but my twilight council timing would still hold back +2 weapons to the same timing. You could move the twilight council up earlier or get +1 armor after +1 weapons. I'm not sure an earlier twilight would be safe, but it can't hurt to try (except ladder points). | ||
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MasterMonkey
United States96 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 01 2012 22:52 kcdc wrote: I personally don't like phoenix openings vs Zerg. Yes, you'll do some damage, but stargate+4 phoenixes is 600/600 that will be mostly useless after your opening harass is done. I think you're better off expanding quicker and dumping those 1200 resources into combat units. And regarding the soft zealot pressure, if you re-read the guide, you'll see that I'm not expecting the zealot pressure to do damage. Most of the time, I'm just warping in defensive zealots on Zerg's side of the map and walking them straight home. But Zerg has to respect 4 zealots and 1 stalker at his third at 7:40. If he builds no defense, he will lose drones and possibly his hatchery. I'm effectively trading a pylon to stall Zerg's droning before 8 minutes. This move isn't required, but it does weaken any roach max push that Zerg would want to do to take out your third. I think it helps. If you go with a quick robo anyway I prefer a light warp prism harass over a zealot poke. I find the zealot poke a bit riskier to perform and easier to stop for zerg. As i see it either you invest 100 in a pylon you lose (which sometimes just get's denied straight away) or you invest 200 in a warp prism that can continue to harass throughout and always secures the safe retreat. With a fast robo it's almost as fast anyway. | ||
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necrimanci
70 Posts
whats your take on getting charge? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Going immortal/archon off 2bases sounds really odd because 1) you can't hit before infestors are out 2) if you invest into that much tech before pushing the zerg has time to just max on roaches and overwhelm you anyway. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:59 necrimanci wrote: saw something like this about 2 or 3 months ago in a custom, but the P player did it off 2 bases before infestors pop out and skipped charge. When i chatted with him later he said that this helps vs roach kiting, as in your immortals dont stay behind while your retarded zealots charge and die/take hits and have to be pulled back - which means that if he wants to hit the zealots he has to tank immortal shots, and if he wants to hit the immortals he has to tank zealot hits whats your take on getting charge? He might be right about charge not being worthwhile for his 2-base timing, but I'm doing a near-maxed push which hits later. A maxed Protoss army with 5+ immortals doesn't have to worry too much about roach kiting because if Z is roach-heavy at that point, Protoss is going to win. A 200 supply roach army just isn't strong enough, and if you've made that many roaches, your broodlords are delayed. As for my push, yes, charge is very helpful. It makes the zealots far more effective for at this timing. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:44 Markwerf wrote: If you go with a quick robo anyway I prefer a light warp prism harass over a zealot poke. I find the zealot poke a bit riskier to perform and easier to stop for zerg. As i see it either you invest 100 in a pylon you lose (which sometimes just get's denied straight away) or you invest 200 in a warp prism that can continue to harass throughout and always secures the safe retreat. With a fast robo it's almost as fast anyway. Not a bad idea. I'm not sure how well warp prism harass would work with this build because you don't have the big warpgate stockpile to make the harass powerful, and you can't afford to lose too many units if you want to keep your defense safe. Zerg might be able to simply tail the prism with a dozen lings and be perfectly safe. It's an option to consider tho. | ||
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