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On November 13 2012 14:19 CaptainHaz wrote:
Wanted to comment that this build has helped me quite a bit in pvz even though i haven't gotten the timings down perfectly following the 5gate+robo infrastructure.
One thing I would like to mention is that due to the early charge you can start using warp prisms MUCH earlier with greater effectiveness compared to normal late game pvz. I've found myself getting a fast robo bay just for gravitic drive and being able to just warp zealots into their main while attacking their 4th.
Overall, seems pretty stable even as a launchpad to transition into stalker/colossus.
Would you mind uploading a replay of your build against the computer? I actually haven't yet optimized the build down to the supply count instead going by feel, so it would be helpful to analyze what happens in a more sterile, optimized setting. Moreover, it would help to see what others are doing with the concept since I've only done what makes sense to me and others might have improvements that I'm missing.
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On November 14 2012 03:18 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:19 CaptainHaz wrote:
Wanted to comment that this build has helped me quite a bit in pvz even though i haven't gotten the timings down perfectly following the 5gate+robo infrastructure.
One thing I would like to mention is that due to the early charge you can start using warp prisms MUCH earlier with greater effectiveness compared to normal late game pvz. I've found myself getting a fast robo bay just for gravitic drive and being able to just warp zealots into their main while attacking their 4th.
Overall, seems pretty stable even as a launchpad to transition into stalker/colossus. Would you mind uploading a replay of your build against the computer? I actually haven't yet optimized the build down to the supply count instead going by feel, so it would be helpful to analyze what happens in a more sterile, optimized setting. Moreover, it would help to see what others are doing with the concept since I've only done what makes sense to me and others might have improvements that I'm missing.
When servers come back online I'll run a few games and post my variations. What I'm doing isn't amazingly refined, I just sort of see when I can afford tech asap while sticking mainly to zealot production.
Thanks again for this btw, I really hate passive third builds as toss and this seems to be a really nice way to take a third safely.
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Italy12246 Posts
Ok this is officially the best build i have ever used. I'll post replays when i find some proper games (i'm rusty as hell so i'm playing pretty bad people), but in general, holy shit.
There's always an awkward moment when you go "waaait a second...where the fuck did the zerg army go???"
Thanks kcdc ♥ my pvz went from my best matchup to "yeah, i don't lose pvz. Ever"
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Glad to hear it Teoita. I'm still awaiting the zealot revolution in PvZ. It's amazing how much more stuff you get when you focus on units that cost half as much (zealots vs stalkers).
Please do post replays. I'm looking forward to learning from others how to use the style better. Feel free to post less-than-great replays. My instincts in PvZ are pretty shitty, so I'm sure there's stuff for me to learn from bad-to-mediocre play.
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Italy12246 Posts
Still haven't found a proper game, but this is the general idea of how i do this for now:
http://drop.sc/276303
1) I actually do stronger 4gate +1 zealot pressure. The reason being for whatever reason it always works at my level (mid master eu)...beats the hell out of me. I just don't get how some people lose their third to 6 units (this guy was mid master wtf), but eh. I feel like if done correctly, that build is always doing enough damage until like high master.
2) I delayed my third a bit because i was so surprised at him losing the third, i thought he was hiding units or something. It definitely does get delayed with my opening (and the rocks on Ohana don't help), but i definitely overdid it in this game
3) I have a better idea of when to get upgrades; i just kinda go single forge and 2/2 lines up nicely for when i max out. Because of how well 4gate pressure does for me, pushing at 15 minutes is generally a good idea, but i figure i could attack faster with 2/1 if necessary.
I've also tried this after a horribly failed dt opening (i was tilting pretty bad) and like...i push into broodlords. Then the Zerg dies. http://drop.sc/276305 (really i need to fix my pvt, these zergs just don't have units)
The cool thing about this is that you can just start flinging a bunch of inexpensive armies at the zerg and just keep his army/deathball in check, when you think of it it just makes so much more sense than stalker/colossus.
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Thanks for posting those reps Teoita.
I've been looking for good macro benchmarks for this build, and lately, I've been using 140 supply at 12 minutes as my goal. It's tough for me to hit 140, but I can consistently hit the low 130's. One thing I've noticed is that if you do hit 140 food at 12 minutes, you can very often push out and kill Zerg's fourth against passive infestor builds. At 130, the push works sometimes. At 120 supply, the push seems to be a donation.
I'm not sure what the upper limit on supply is. I'm pretty awful at using chronoboost, so I'm guessing that 140 is not nearly the ceiling. Is 150 supply at 12 minutes possible?
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I hit a maxed timing with 2-2, storm and 13 gates at 14:40 yesterday. That was probably the best overall macro I've had with the build, although I'm sure the max can hit significantly faster.
The double forge zealot-immortal style is defintely becoming more popular in the pro scene. One thing I've noticed that I do diferently is I take my third early while pros seem to get a twilight council and a second forge before they take a third base. This might sound like it's a small flip in ordering, but it's actually a very substantial difference. I take my third at about 7:20 with only +1 weapons started, but the faster double forge build devotes many more resources to tech and infrastructure, and winds up taking the third base more than 2 minutes later than I do with a higher sentry count, several more gateways, and +2/+1 researching.
The pro build may be a safer third base--I'm not totally sure. Zerg can definitely force a cancel on my third by getting quick metabolic boost and massing lings at 7 minutes, but that seems to do enough damage to Zerg to put us even anyway. The pro build has more sentries which would seem to prevent the third from being canceled, but since there's so much spending on infrastructure, the army that takes the third winds up looking pretty pathetically small at the time the third is taken. On some maps, the third may not be automatically safe. Drops and tunneling claws may be particularly problematic given the reliance on forcefields to defend.
The more important question is which build order produces a more powerful pre-hive timing push. My build will max out faster, but the pro build hits with +3/+2 whereas I hit with +2/+2. My larger economy also allows me to begin mothership tech prior to and during the attack whereas the pros I've seen have devoted all their resources toward doing a maxed timing ASAP. The result is their push is more all-in.
So what's better--a 14:40 maxed push with +2/+2 and a fleet beacon starting or a 15:00 maxed all-in with +3/+2?
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I pretty sure the less all-in version is better. You can do so much damages and still be in the game. Thats the best point of pre-BL timing. Its rare to win on a pre-BL timing nowadays, it happens only if the zerg fucks up his game.
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I've been experimenting with cutting the 3 gate pressure in favor of simply pressuring with my first zealot and stalker. My thoughts:
Cons of the pressure:
In order to hit the 7:40 timing, you have to start your 2nd and 3rd gates before your pylon at 44 supply, which forces a slight probe cut--or at least less chrono on probes which is effectively the same thing.
You also have to suicide a pylon for the pressure.
Sometimes, Zerg attacks your third instead of defending against your pressure. This is annoying because he cancels your third and pylons being built there and you wind up supply-blocked with 1500 minerals. Meanwhile, he can reinforce to defend your push without taking damage equivalent to what his counter-attack inflicted. You can avoid this situation by simply skipping the pressure and warping at home.
Pros of the pressure:
Tends to discourage extremely greedy play, and often delays lair.
Sometimes forces over-reaction, leading to an easily defended slow roach all-in.
Delayed tech means slower mutas, slower infestors, slower broodlords. Broodlords seem to come after 15:00 with the pressure, but before 15:00 without the pressure. This is a big deal since my push hits shortly before 15:00.
Summary:
I'm not sure which is better. I get to focus more on perfect macro if I skip the pressure, and I'm able to more consistently hit 140+ supply at 12:00, and time my +2/+2 upgrades nice and early. On the one hand, the improved Protoss macro is valuable because you really need to be almost maxed for the push to work, but on the other hand, the broodlords really do seem to come out quicker if you skip the pressure. I think I'll continue experimenting with a more passive third base, but I'll try to find a new pressure timing to slow the greater spire. Perhaps I'll try a 10-minute push after seeing the infestation pit to freak Zerg out and maybe deny his fourth. This would force some roaches, and I don't think Zerg can go for a 10:30 hive if they spend gas on roaches. Roach production would make this push suicide, however, so observer vision on his army would be critical.
On a related subject, I've ironed out some finer details in the build. I'm now starting +1 weapons after my 2nd and 3rd gates and right before my first sentry. With good chronoboost, I'm able to time +1 armor to finish right as my twilight council completes which lets me start +2/+2 right away. +2/+2 winds up completing before I'm maxed which is earlier than I need it, but it feels good to have the weapons and armor upgrades synced up. I'd love to get +3/+3 for the maxed push, but I don't think it's possible if you want to hit before broodlords. Unless you want to all-in with the push, I think it's worth it to start +3/+3 before pushing so that it's done by the time you have to fight broodlords head-on.
Also, I'm now starting my templar archives before starting charge. This removes charge from any smaller pushes, but it lets me sync up storm and charge so that I have both for the start of my big push. It sacrifices small aggression for a more powerful main push. Storms are important for two reasons--you can leave a couple templar at home to shut down zergling counter-attacks, and they completely remove zerglings from the main fight which lets your zealots smash important stuff faster.
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New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun.
Most recent replay:
http://drop.sc/283536
Thoughts? Feedback?
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On December 11 2012 15:01 kcdc wrote:New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun. Most recent replay: http://drop.sc/283536Thoughts? Feedback?
Thoughts:
- "Holy wtf BBQ fuckshit."
Seriously though, that addition to the build is very interesting, never seen 12 minute stargate before for anything other than a mothership.
I've been working on incorporating this style into my PvZ, which works off my adaption of Tyler's 2 gate expo, and it works really well. more zealot heavy compositions really do swing pvz back into decent territory, and double ups which i am now using in all PvZ games are really really useful. (i usually go +1 attack, add TC and another forge, then get ups two at a time and then shield ups).
The nice thing about incorporating this into my style is that i tend to have more sentries with more energy from the early game, so with more forcefields zealots are much more effective against roaches. I am thinking about cutting down further on my sentry numbers (i used to get about 9, have recently switched to around 6-7, and am thinking about cutting down to 4 if i can get away with it), and trying to take a fast third as soon as i have hallucinate to check what the zerg is doing. Also, i have been adding a second robo when i scout roach openings, so i can get immortals and warp prisms at the same time, tis hardcore.
Love your guides as always KCDC.
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On December 11 2012 15:01 kcdc wrote:New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun. Most recent replay: http://drop.sc/283536Thoughts? Feedback?
The play from both sides were a bit too sloppy to really judge the effectiveness of the additional phoenixes but I really like the concept! Will play around with this a bit!
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On December 11 2012 16:11 RandomRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 15:01 kcdc wrote:New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun. Most recent replay: http://drop.sc/283536Thoughts? Feedback? The play from both sides were a bit too sloppy to really judge the effectiveness of the additional phoenixes but I really like the concept! Will play around with this a bit!
The reason the phoenixes work is that you're constantly forcing chaos, preventing Zerg from getting to a point where they can afford to chain fungal your phoenixes to death. Sure, our macro slips in that replay, but the window from 13 minutes to the end of the game at 21 minutes is essentially one constant engagement across the map. Granted, we're not that good, but it's tough to produce a "clean" game in that environment.
Phoenixes are usually considered bad in late-game against Zerg because fungal growth shuts down the harass so effectively. But if you combine 5 phoenixes with a zealot/archon/immortal attack, Zerg has to be very careful choosing how they use their infestor energy. A cluster of phoenixes is a juicy target if Zerg is sitting back behind a spine wall stacking broodlords, but when you only have 10 fungals banked and there's a maxed ground army charging in at you, it's hard to justify blowing half your fungals on the 5 phoenixes. And if you do blow your fungals on neutralizing 5 phoenixes, you're screwed against the ground army.
Note that this works if Zerg has 10 fungals banked, but it doesn't work if they have 30 fungals banked. It really helps to be aggressive in the 12-15 minute window to limit the fungal bank before you attack. This forces roach production which means less infestors and air units, and it also forces Zerg to spend his fungals before your big push with storms and phoenixes. You don't want to throw units away of course. In my experience, if you hit 140+ supply at 12 minutes and you see a fourth base and a hive morphing, you can attack, but you need to be careful about your engagements.
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Just can't stop winning games where the battle seems like i'm completely dead, because i have lost all my gas units, and he has some broods left, then i warp in 12 zealots and 4 stalkers and kill off all the broods. So much zerg rage in my games.
I'm still not opening FFE, but Double Forge + different comp + aggressive expanding is really, really strong.
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hey kcdc, im a new toss, i got some questions
1.How about zerg not go for fast 3rd ,go for saturated 2 bases with drones and lair tech instead?
2.Due to lack of blink / stargate tech and low count in gas supply. how could we defend against the muta / infestor lings push ?
3. how to defend against 2 bases fast 10 roach rush ? or roach lings bane push with this build ?
please reply in more detailed , thanks .
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Italy12246 Posts
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I don't know if this is outside the realm of this build/discussion, but recently I've been having a lot of success with mixing in some colossi to a primarily chargelot/immortal/archon composition. I got the idea from Creator, who's been doing it a bunch recently. Off of a robo twilight expand I can usually hit with a maxed composition of 3-4 immortals, 2-3 colossi, 3-4 archons a hand full of stalkers and the rest chargelots around 15:00. I guess it's the same idea as the zealot/immortal/HT composition, but the colossi add some heavy AOE damage and force a larger commitment (and possible over commitment) to corruptors if scouted, which seems to strengthen the army over all. I don't think I've lost a game where I've been able to execute that timing. Do you think using HTs is better over all, or are both pretty strong?
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Italy12246 Posts
If you do go colossi you tend to delay your timing though, which has its pros and cons. Both are very viable though.
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On December 02 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
So what's better--a 14:40 maxed push with +2/+2 and a fleet beacon starting or a 15:00 maxed all-in with +3/+2?
I would rather not deal with lategame PvZ, and the twilight + 2 forge before third style tends to make sure that it doesn't arrive. It's really rare that the push will fail -- it can actually have 3/3/1 when it hits, which is incredibly hard to deal with. At least for me, however, it is definitely harder to hold my third against a roach attack or something similar.
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EPT
