EPT[G] 4 CC into Skyterran TvZ - Page 5
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
Wish me luck! | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
On August 12 2012 15:37 FairForever wrote: Someone did this against me in high masters a couple of weeks ago (was it you?) and I creamed him pretty badly... roaches are a hard counter to this build early/mid-game because they just sit them behind mineral lines and whatnot (out of range of PFs) and prevent you from mining, it's not hard at all.... They wouldn't play on NA rofl | ||
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
On August 12 2012 15:37 FairForever wrote: Someone did this against me in high masters a couple of weeks ago (was it you?) and I creamed him pretty badly... roaches are a hard counter to this build early/mid-game because they just sit them behind mineral lines and whatnot (out of range of PFs) and prevent you from mining, it's not hard at all.... In the early mid game we use marines and tanks to hold pressure, the guy you played should have just went and killed the roaches at his mineral line. I don't know how they got there because he should be bunkering up at his front and tanks in behind so unless you dropped roaches he did something wrong. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On August 12 2012 12:18 TheMadTecha wrote: I think you misunderstood me, so i will re-iliterate for you. I said a player should never aim for a base race scenario (meaning its shouldn't be their main plan). Whether or not a base race is the best option, is another case which is dependent on the game at hand (which no amount of theory crafting can predict the right response). Actually I understood what you said perfectly. Your first post in this thread asked about what to do about the 150+ ling remax, usually with Ultras/Banes. I'm telling you that in that SPECIFIC situation, the best course of action is to base race him. You cannot defend because BC/Raven isn't mobile enough. It's better to just go kill his base while you lift your buildings. Terran will win this situation 9 times out of 10. Now if he remaxes with air again, then of course you won't go base race him because it's a different situation entirely. Furthermore, sacking workers to the degree you stated (20-40 left) i strongly disagree. 40 workers plus additional mules is ok to have but anything below 30 is virtual suicide even with 8cc of mules. Reducing the terrans income to this amount effectively makes his army an all-in has he can at best produce 1 more similar sized army and is then out of resourses. Also, with such a low scv count small groups of ling counter attacks can devastate what is left of the economy, and yes before you say anything i know the terran is on a 5k bank with 8cc's, dropping down below 30 scv is always gonna be a mistake no matter what stage of the game they are in. Saccing that many SCV's late game is used constantly in all types of pro games. Terran cannot replenish their army as quickly as Zerg/Toss and they have the power of MULES behind them. Thus it's better to rely heavily on MULES for mining minerals while keeping only your gas SCV's and some for making buildings. This allows you to get a larger max army to compensate for the fact that Terran cannot rebuild their army as fast as the other races. Now, curropters are an extremely supply and cost effiecient unit. Despite be labelled as lost dps, i find that they are very useful when dealing with all air units(including ravens and vikings). The sky terran arny in this case will be a ball, and if we ignore infestors for the moment and foocas on curropters vs terran air we can see some interesting micro battles. Magix boxed curropters are fast enough to get within the ball without taking to many SM at which point the terran must drop significant amounts of point defense drones to prevent his army dieing. Now, even though the terrans army should still win with about 1/2 it left, all the ravens and bc will be drained of energy, letting zerg do what zerg do best which is remax on a air army (as welll as 20 lings for harras), and go and finish the terran (who is weakened and low on energy). Curropters has a shortish build time of around 40 seconds which helps, as well as the majority of the inf still being alive. This remax air army will be possible for the zerg since has maintained a worker count and lots of bases. No offense, but this is flat out wrong. Pure Corruptor against BC/Raven will result in a HUGE victory for the Terran with almost no losses. If you magic box and hug PDD will shut you down. If you don't magic box and hug HSM will destroy you. If you try and run away you eat a bunch of Yamatos and donate units to the Terran. Without the Infestors around, the Terran would win that fight with 80-90% (being conservative here. It very well could be 100%...) of his army intact. The only way Corruptors work is if you bring your Infestors along for the fight also. This exposes the Infestors to risk of HSM/Yamato which then becomes the "interesting micro war" that you are talking about. Pure Corruptors alone is just gifting stuff to the Terran. And counterattacks with 20 lings? Are you sure you read the guide? Because it specifically says you mass PF's everywhere and all the replays show this as well. 20 lings to counterattack is just making the Zerg Corr/Infestor army 10 food smaller. A total gift to the Terran. Finally, i never disagreed with you that sky terran is a bad strategy, i believe that it will work against zerg in most stituations where its blob vs blob in late game. However, i still maintain that zerg if playing correctly should still be able to defeat the terran unless they entered the late game on a bad economy. Yes, as other people in the thread have mentioned already. You need Corruptor/Infestor and it becomes a matter of who controls his units better in the fight. What I was trying to tell you in the original post is that you don't need to worry about the 150+ ling + ground army remax. It doesn't beat this strat, and actually would result in an fairly easy Terran win 9 times out of 10. | ||
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kaokentake
383 Posts
8 ravens 13vikings 23 battlecruisers thats 180food make a command center before the fight have your BC's as group1 vikings/ravens as group2 spread your BC's and a-move across the map. keep vikings/ravens behind your battlecruisers so they are protected as the BC's march across the map a-move across the map with your BC's. spread your BC's and attack, its hard for zerg to fungal properly because the BC's are spread and dont move that slow and you will be spamming yamato on infestors as you are attacking, liftoff all your orbitals and production and have them follow your army. Also liftoff the CC and load it with 5 SCV's and that follows your army too. let zerg try to baserace you and your flying buildings come with you as you destroy all the zergs tech+hive. after destroying all the zergs stuff, land your buildings and unload 5 SCV's and build 8 depots and calldown 8 supplies BOOM your back to 200food again even though fungal outranges BC's, it doesnt matter because when magic boxed pre-spread BC's are a-moving across the map and you have pure infestors and your trying to fungal them you only hit a few BC's and then the rest are moving past you and some are launching yamato if the zerg has 100food in lings during this attack of the terran, the zerg will lose all his tech, his hive, and the game HOLY CRAP I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING..... you can FLOAT all your buildings over your battlecruisers, thus making it almost impossible for the zerg to target NP onto your BC's | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
 edit: Oh and this build is getting buff in the next patch... can't wait  | ||
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TheMadTecha
Australia7 Posts
No offense, but this is flat out wrong. Pure Corruptor against BC/Raven will result in a HUGE victory for the Terran with almost no losses. If you magic box and hug PDD will shut you down. If you don't magic box and hug HSM will destroy you. If you try and run away you eat a bunch of Yamatos and donate units to the Terran. Without the Infestors around, the Terran would win that fight with 80-90% (being conservative here. It very well could be 100%...) of his army intact. The only way Corruptors work is if you bring your Infestors along for the fight also. This exposes the Infestors to risk of HSM/Yamato which then becomes the "interesting micro war" that you are talking about. Pure Corruptors alone is just gifting stuff to the Terran. And counterattacks with 20 lings? Are you sure you read the guide? Because it specifically says you mass PF's everywhere and all the replays show this as well. 20 lings to counterattack is just making the Zerg Corr/Infestor army 10 food smaller. A total gift to the Terran. If you go back and read what i said, i was ignoring the micro done by the infestors, i was not saying they weren't there. The point I was getting at with the curropters is that at this point in the late late game they are fairly expandable, while the terran army isnt. Even with mass pf everywhere, there is always gonna be a spot that lings can attack and even gain access to the main where they can start killing production. The terran cannot base race in this situation as there are only 10-20 lings in the main. The terran will be forced to pull back some units to deal with. Saccing that many SCV's late game is used constantly in all types of pro games. Terran cannot replenish their army as quickly as Zerg/Toss and they have the power of MULES behind them. Thus it's better to rely heavily on MULES for mining minerals while keeping only your gas SCV's and some for making buildings. This allows you to get a larger max army to compensate for the fact that Terran cannot rebuild their army as fast as the other races. I am well aware of this and its advanatages and disasvanatges. For me dropping below 30 scv puts my scv count much lower than i would want. If u read my other post on the previous page you would understand my particular play style and why i like playing 2hr games (also why i dont like base races). | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:39 TheMadTecha wrote: If you go back and read what i said, i was ignoring the micro done by the infestors, i was not saying they weren't there. The point I was getting at with the curropters is that at this point in the late late game they are fairly expandable, while the terran army isnt. If that's the case, you cannot simply assume that the Terran loses half their army while the Zerg somehow keeps all their Infestors alive. If the Terran lost half his army the Zerg probably lost a good portion of their Infestors in the fight along with all those Corruptors, with the remaining Infestors at low energy. The degree of losses in essence, would be determined by who controls better. Even with mass pf everywhere, there is always gonna be a spot that lings can attack and even gain access to the main where they can start killing production. The terran cannot base race in this situation as there are only 10-20 lings in the main. The terran will be forced to pull back some units to deal with. Unlikely. All of the replays in the OP show PFs/Bunkers/Depot blocks among all possible attack lanes. 10-20 lings wouldn't have a chance of making it past that. Even if somehow they did get in, you can simply lift your production buildings and land them next to some PF's (or vice versa). If it's 100+ lings, stuff might die. 10-20 is just gifting to the Terran. I am well aware of this and its advanatages and disasvanatges. For me dropping below 30 scv puts my scv count much lower than i would want. If u read my other post on the previous page you would understand my particular play style and why i like playing 2hr games (also why i dont like base races). No offense, but your personal playstyle preferences are not really of anyone's concern here. The only things we are really concerned about are if someone already chose to use this strat, how would they best handle certain situations. If the responses required are not something you are comfortable with, then you can either find a more palatable solution, or just not use this strat at all. | ||
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The_Unseen
France1923 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
Here is a few replays: http://drop.sc/237711 http://drop.sc/237712 http://drop.sc/237713 If it's not too inconvenient, it would be lovely if someone could check them out and see what I'm doing wrong in my execution of this build and just typical terran play. As I said, I begun playing terran literally yesterday evening and would therefore appreciate all (even basic simple advice)! | ||
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
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Sar
United States30 Posts
On August 14 2012 04:33 Daimai wrote: Hi. I am a completely new terran player (switching from high master protoss to terran) trying to learn this build as my main build. However I have had quite a few problems practicing vs a diamond friend of mine. Here is a few replays: http://drop.sc/237711 http://drop.sc/237712 http://drop.sc/237713 If it's not too inconvenient, it would be lovely if someone could check them out and see what I'm doing wrong in my execution of this build and just typical terran play. As I said, I begun playing terran literally yesterday evening and would therefore appreciate all (even basic simple advice)! Honestly, your just being outplayed and aren't doing the build quite right. You rarely get to skymech and have trouble just holding your third base. On a good note, each of your games is played better than the last. 1.Compare your build to the build order. Just try getting the timings down before personalizing it to your own style. Try to take your third earlier, and don't be afraid to make it a planetary if your afraid to move out. This build needs the gas. Build a viking first, then a banshee. Use the viking to kill overlords and scout out those early ling/bane pushes. Use the banshee to harrass. You could hold off the pushes a lot better if you had anticipated them. upgrade hsm earlier. you need it vs. infestors and muta. You make too many rax. The goal of this build is to ween off the rine. Try to stick to 3 or 4 2.Some things I noticed with your basic play. You tend to supply block around the 90 food mark. Your natural is oversaturated and your main is undersaturated in all 3 games. You don't like to build full walls, leaving just a big enough gap for speedling runs. Simcity wins. There are a lot of things wrong with your play if your going to do this build. I suggest lots and lots of practice. For the people theorycrafting this build please post replays of the build losing to said counter. Without solid evidence your theorycrafting is just conjecture and can be countered with similiar conjecture. If your losing with this or winning with this build, replays are also appreciated. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I think opening 1 rax FE into 4 rax pressure into defensive tanks while taking 3rd and 4th flows more natural. You can then transition into sky terran when you have the gas to do so. | ||
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The_Unseen
France1923 Posts
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
The build from the OP doesn't seem so. Look at the replays, in all of them Z played very passively making a ton of drones and basically let T get his 3rd and 4th for free. A committed 3 base attack happening from 10-16 minutes would crush this style. Imagine if Z played like Stephano style vs P and attacked with 200 supply roach ling at 12 mins. He would either kill the third and prevent T from expanding even again or go directly for the natural and main. Overlord drop or nydus would probably be even harder to hold :/ . | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:05 foxj wrote: The problem i get when playing this build is hard to take third, the zergs won't go easy on me ;( maybe i was doing sth wrong or too bad. I think this build is hard to use but master it, u have a trump card edit: Oh and this build is getting buff in the next patch... can't wait what buff?? | ||
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FlubbaSet
Germany7 Posts
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