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My question is about the 150 ling remax (with banes/or ultras included) that is the bane of all sky terran builds. Even with sim city the zerg will get in and demolish all of the terrans production and mining, effectively killing the terran off.
The reason this doesnt work against mech/ or bio is that marines and hellions are always around, with sky terran willnot have a unit to deal with these counters unless they invest in muiltiple bunkers. In which case the main terran army gets smaller because the amount of bunkers that need to be placed. The terran could use tanks but they will soak up alot of gas and still wont hold back 150 lings unless there is amazing sim city.
I have no doubt that sky terran can beat lategame sky zerg, the problem lies in what the zerg does after they remax. Its amazing stupid how long it takes a bc to kill an ultra (even with yamato), plus sky terran isnt fast enough to deal with large counter attacks as bc so it down.
I am not saying that sky terran wont work, it can, but it simply isnt as effective as people make it out. Just my 2 cents
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On August 12 2012 00:29 ScoSteSal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:24 MaxSteel wrote:On August 11 2012 06:18 Flonomenalz wrote:
[...] [...] can't the zerg drop 8-16 clings onto your patrol and then nydus as your patrol is dying? Another question= how does BC raven deal with the zerg covering the map with over a hundred spores so you have to slowpush with a few tanks to clear out the spores, and what if he has just a couple bl queen to dance around the spores to keep the tanks/vikings away?
In the earlier game, you'd usually have some tank/marine to defend it, no matter what strat you're using. you saw him going for drops, just build 2/3 bunkers there and put marines in them. With building armour, that'd be enough to defend versus a lot of drops.
In the mid-game, he wont be able to continuously do big drops. If he does one, go and clean it up with the fleet, knowing that he doesn't have enough supply to break your front PF/Tank defenses since much of his supply is in the drop. By the time he does have the income and production for such continues drops, your main and natural would be mined out, so you just lift the Starports and go place them at one of the locations with 2~3 PF's you should have by that time. Also rebuild the core there.
As for when he fills the map with spores.... don't waste gas on tanks, he can trade them for lings.
There are a few repeatable things you can do at the edge of the spore-crawler wall (assuming you got pure Raven/BC, never had vikings so I don't know):
1. Use 2 Yomatos for 1 Spore, and retreat to a safe spot to recharge energy. Takes a year, but still the most safe thing you can do. (You still save at least half the yomatos for gas units, like infestors).
2. Place a PDD, dart in with the BC's, since a spore or 2 and move back. Relatively safe if there is a ground choke, and you can Yomato any infestor that tries to come through the spires and NP/Fungle, as well as use PDDs at the back if he tries to fight with curruptors.
3. Fly 1/2 Ravens and place a few Auto-Turrets at around 6/7 range from the spores. Target the spores, even if he uses Infested Terrans - by the time they hatch, the spore you targeted should be dead if you placed 4/5 turrets. This all asumes he placed those ITs at least 3 squeres far from your buildings, else he'd either have the infestors at Yomato range or the IT's at the BC fire range. Auto Turrets win vs Infested Terrans 1:1 by the way, especially in larger numbers as AT's have higher range. However IT's are only 25 energy, so don't expect this to be more than a trade of some raven energy for the spore instead of BC energy.
Repeat either of those things, take the ground with Auto Turrets (and normal ones), and eventually you'll push him back to a corner and kill him.
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On August 12 2012 07:15 TheMadTecha wrote:
My question is about the 150 ling remax (with banes/or ultras included) that is the bane of all sky terran builds. Even with sim city the zerg will get in and demolish all of the terrans production and mining, effectively killing the terran off.
In this situation it will probably devolve into a base race.
Because none (or very few) of his remax units can shoot air, you should lift all of your buildings, completely ignore his army, and march straight to his base. Kill his Hive. Kill his Greater Spire. Kill his Infestation Pit. He now cannot make anything that can damage your army or kill your buildings and he can't remake the Spire or Infestation Pit to open up the tech tree. Even if he did have his tech tree open, he has to slowly kill off his ground army himself (including those 150+ lings...) unit by unit in order to free up supply in order to even make Corruptors/Infestors. Hunt down every single Hatch that he tries to morph into Lair and kill any Spires/Infestation Pits that he made before the Hive died if he realized the danger he was in. If he tries to mass Queens/Spores, PDD shuts down damage from those while Yamato takes care of Transfuse attempts.
Never ever ever attack his army (even if you fly over him...) so that his supply remains locked into units that can't shoot up and forcing him into a micro nightmare of having to individually kill 150+ Zerglings (and other things) in order to free up supply to build Infestors/Corruptors. If you encounter a few units that can shoot air here and there, just specifically target those while ignoring his ground army. Even if he manages to squeeze out a few anti-air units in this manner, it takes a massive amount of these units to realisitically take on a BC/Raven force. Any small amounts will die almost immediately to HSM/Yamato.
Now obviously this is a great simplification, but I think you get the general idea. The biggest mistake against the full Ling/Ultra/Bling remax is trying to defend. A full ground mobilty force remax should mean a base race if you have a BC/Raven army. You are too slow to defend with your units. So just hope your Planetaries can delay him a bit and go wipe out the Zerg's tech tree while you fly your buildings around. Keep his supply locked into his ground force by completely ignoring his army. All your stuff flies anyway, so why bother killing his ground units? Once he can't make stuff that can shoot air there's no way he can win.
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Gonna try this strat when i get home...might finally get me to ladder again for the first time in a year
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Given that after the intial battle the terran's army should be about 1/2-2/3 its maxed size, a zerg will win a base race with the terran unless he lifts his buildings. A base race scenario should never be part of a strategy, it should be a last resort when things go pear shaped.
Furthermore, if the zerg goes mass spore (they should have the money because of sky terrans inability to harras with the exception of banshees) the terrans base race scenario becomes even more of a grey area.
The only solution i see that can completely solve the problem would be to drop pfs in highley defensable positions to slow down and/or prevent a full on base race. Combining this with well placed supply depot(around the pf) and the armor upgrade. A full sky terran play is possiable, unitl zerg learns how to split and hug the terran ball with curropters.
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On August 12 2012 09:25 TheMadTecha wrote:
Given that after the intial battle the terran's army should be about 1/2-2/3 its maxed size, a zerg will win a base race with the terran unless he lifts his buildings. A base race scenario should never be part of a strategy, it should be a last resort when things go pear shaped.
Strongly disagree with you here. Given that the Terran will have been saccing most of his SCV's for OC/Mules, his initial army will be immensely larger than the Zerg who has 80 food in drones. Thus a remax for Zerg would be ~120 food army that cannot shoot air (according to your original post). Because the Terran would have around 160-180 food army from saccing SCV's, even 1/2-2/3 of max for the Terran is going to be around ~100 food worth of BC/Raven which would be more than enough to easily win a base race with the Zerg.
And a base race should ABSOLUTELY be part of a strategy if a situation arises in which it is the best possible option. You yourself say in your original post that Ultras take too long to kill and the ling/ultra/bling composition is too mobile to track down. In such a situation a base race is probably the best choice available to you considering you can lift your buildings to make them invulnerable to his pure ground army.
Furthermore, if the zerg goes mass spore (they should have the money because of sky terrans inability to harras with the exception of banshees) the terrans base race scenario becomes even more of a grey area.
Mass Spores are a joke. Not only is the Zerg blowing larva and minerals on Drones/Spores which will severely reduce his Zergling count, but Spores are easily stopped by PDD's and Yamato.
The only solution i see that can completely solve the problem would be to drop pfs in highley defensable positions to slow down and/or prevent a full on base race. Combining this with well placed supply depot(around the pf) and the armor upgrade. A full sky terran play is possiable, unitl zerg learns how to split and hug the terran ball with curropters.
Did you even read the original guide and watch the replays? Massing PF's is exactly what the guide tells you to do. Splitting Corruptors and hugging doesn't do much to stop this because PDD's shut down Corruptors cold due to their extremely slow attack speed. You think Hyun and Haypro don't know how to split/hug? They try and get killed anyway. The only way to beat this is to catch his Ravens with Infestors before he can get in range to use his PDD/HSM effectively. In essence, whoever controls better wins.
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On August 12 2012 07:15 TheMadTecha wrote:
My question is about the 150 ling remax (with banes/or ultras included) that is the bane of all sky terran builds. Even with sim city the zerg will get in and demolish all of the terrans production and mining, effectively killing the terran off.
The reason this doesnt work against mech/ or bio is that marines and hellions are always around, with sky terran willnot have a unit to deal with these counters unless they invest in muiltiple bunkers. In which case the main terran army gets smaller because the amount of bunkers that need to be placed. The terran could use tanks but they will soak up alot of gas and still wont hold back 150 lings unless there is amazing sim city.
I have no doubt that sky terran can beat lategame sky zerg, the problem lies in what the zerg does after they remax. Its amazing stupid how long it takes a bc to kill an ultra (even with yamato), plus sky terran isnt fast enough to deal with large counter attacks as bc so it down.
I am not saying that sky terran wont work, it can, but it simply isnt as effective as people make it out. Just my 2 cents
you would defend in the case of a pure ling ultra remax?... why not just go kill his overlords and base trade? L is a good command 
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I think you misunderstood me, so i will re-iliterate for you. I said a player should never aim for a base race scenario (meaning its shouldn't be their main plan). Whether or not a base race is the best option, is another case which is dependent on the game at hand (which no amount of theory crafting can predict the right response).
Furthermore, sacking workers to the degree you stated (20-40 left) i strongly disagree. 40 workers plus additional mules is ok to have but anything below 30 is virtual suicide even with 8cc of mules. Reducing the terrans income to this amount effectively makes his army an all-in has he can at best produce 1 more similar sized army and is then out of resourses.
Also, with such a low scv count small groups of ling counter attacks can devastate what is left of the economy, and yes before you say anything i know the terran is on a 5k bank with 8cc's, dropping down below 30 scv is always gonna be a mistake no matter what stage of the game they are in.
Yes i did read the guide, all of it in fact, i was agreeing with you.
Now, curropters are an extremely supply and cost effiecient unit. Despite be labelled as lost dps, i find that they are very useful when dealing with all air units(including ravens and vikings). The sky terran arny in this case will be a ball, and if we ignore infestors for the moment and foocas on curropters vs terran air we can see some interesting micro battles.
Magix boxed curropters are fast enough to get within the ball without taking to many SM at which point the terran must drop significant amounts of point defense drones to prevent his army dieing. Now, even though the terrans army should still win with about 1/2 it left, all the ravens and bc will be drained of energy, letting zerg do what zerg do best which is remax on a air army (as welll as 20 lings for harras), and go and finish the terran (who is weakened and low on energy).
Curropters has a shortish build time of around 40 seconds which helps, as well as the majority of the inf still being alive. This remax air army will be possible for the zerg since has maintained a worker count and lots of bases.
Finally, i never disagreed with you that sky terran is a bad strategy, i believe that it will work against zerg in most stituations where its blob vs blob in late game. However, i still maintain that zerg if playing correctly should still be able to defeat the terran unless they entered the late game on a bad economy.
P.S. (your last post you seemed angry and frustrated, it doesnt add to your cause by doing so, if you weren't pls disregard this statement)
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I've tried this build out with my Zerg friend.
I rocked his corruptor/broodlord army and won game 1.
In game 2, ultras,blings, infestors rocked me up. My econ got ravaged and he defended with tons of queens, spores and infested terrans when I went for a base-trade after it took me a moment to realize that my air wasn't killing the ground fast enough ( with lift and all ).
Next time, I'll try using PF + seige tanks to hold (I was using PFs before too, btw, but not really placing tanks behind a PF to take out banes), while adding banshees into my air to take out the ground faster. But yeah, that won't be happening soon enough.
Btw: the person complaining about making spores has me scratching my head. Is it any different than a spine crawler forest that we see all the time?
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Themadtecha
Why again is it bad to have base race as a plan? If it wins, it wins. Are you against all ins as well? If the Zerg base races, you win. They made the mistake of trying to base race a Terran and pay the price
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@ 9-bit
I only ever use base races as a last resort after the zerg in this case as broken my walls and into my production, only then will i think of base racing. I also try to avoid planning to base race if he does "x", which to me is a sign of a bad or ill-prepared strategy.
Similar to base racing i never all-in unless then have broken into my base in which case it is a base race anyways, but even in this case i still send scvs to build buildings around the map. I do not plan all-ins into my strategies i do not use them if an oppertunity arises, I will simply attack at a timing which is advantangeous to me.
The closest i get to all-ining is bringing scv to build bunkers (about 5) when i am doing early pressure.
I do this because (and i am trying to be modest here) i like to macro and am pretty good at it and all-ining with all my scvs doesnt help that. Also i like to always have a fallback plan
Hope that answers your questions 
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I see what you are saying, but this guide is telling you how to win, not improve.
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If winning is all you want, then go ahead and do what you will think will win the most. It completely up to you to do what you want, and i wont tell you otherwise.
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On August 12 2012 07:15 TheMadTecha wrote:
My question is about the 150 ling remax (with banes/or ultras included) that is the bane of all sky terran builds. Even with sim city the zerg will get in and demolish all of the terrans production and mining, effectively killing the terran off.
The reason this doesnt work against mech/ or bio is that marines and hellions are always around, with sky terran willnot have a unit to deal with these counters unless they invest in muiltiple bunkers. In which case the main terran army gets smaller because the amount of bunkers that need to be placed. The terran could use tanks but they will soak up alot of gas and still wont hold back 150 lings unless there is amazing sim city.
I have no doubt that sky terran can beat lategame sky zerg, the problem lies in what the zerg does after they remax. Its amazing stupid how long it takes a bc to kill an ultra (even with yamato), plus sky terran isnt fast enough to deal with large counter attacks as bc so it down.
I am not saying that sky terran wont work, it can, but it simply isnt as effective as people make it out. Just my 2 cents
The build specifically says to get an insane number of bunkers, and they don't reduce the size of your army when you're running on gas.
Also, banshees are pretty decent against Ultras. Banshees plus Auto Turrets to slow them down.
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Someone did this against me in high masters a couple of weeks ago (was it you?) and I creamed him pretty badly... roaches are a hard counter to this build early/mid-game because they just sit them behind mineral lines and whatnot (out of range of PFs) and prevent you from mining, it's not hard at all....
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On August 12 2012 15:37 FairForever wrote:
Someone did this against me in high masters a couple of weeks ago (was it you?) and I creamed him pretty badly... roaches are a hard counter to this build early/mid-game because they just sit them behind mineral lines and whatnot (out of range of PFs) and prevent you from mining, it's not hard at all....
How do you get past mass bunkers and well positioned tanks to sit behind mineral lines? Read the first line of the post above yours.
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On August 12 2012 18:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 15:37 FairForever wrote:
Someone did this against me in high masters a couple of weeks ago (was it you?) and I creamed him pretty badly... roaches are a hard counter to this build early/mid-game because they just sit them behind mineral lines and whatnot (out of range of PFs) and prevent you from mining, it's not hard at all.... How do you get past mass bunkers and well positioned tanks to sit behind mineral lines? Read the first line of the post above yours.
Roach drops in main
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Neural parasite raven, blow up ravens seems to be the weak point here.
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On August 12 2012 20:02 Spiner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 18:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 12 2012 15:37 FairForever wrote:
Someone did this against me in high masters a couple of weeks ago (was it you?) and I creamed him pretty badly... roaches are a hard counter to this build early/mid-game because they just sit them behind mineral lines and whatnot (out of range of PFs) and prevent you from mining, it's not hard at all.... How do you get past mass bunkers and well positioned tanks to sit behind mineral lines? Read the first line of the post above yours. Roach drops in main
He specifically said behind planetaries.
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EPT
