|
So after watching the replays I noticed two things.
One in Hyuns and Haypros games the unit composition (skyT) got scouted when the Z was allready maxed on BLs.
With the eco they both had they should been able to react accordingly if they would know what was coming.
In the other games I noticed that you kinda bank everything on building placement and that no zerg destroys your ravens.
It almost every time starts with ~20ish marines 3-4 tanks and then you go all out on ravens.
So if a Z would react intelligent he should start to pressure you heavly on all bases at around 10-11 minutes. (~11ish minutes maxxed on lings off of 3bases)
Do you really only hope to defend this by building placement or are their some deeper thoughts I didn't noticed yet?
(the game vs White is a good showcase to what could happen if a full-out ling bling multi pronge would hit you)
Btw: i am a zergie but I always thought of skyT as one of the most dangerous and strongest unit comp ingame 
|
The build order only works if your opponent doesn't attack you for 20 minutes -.-
did u see song replays? He got attacked before 20 min a lot of time
ofc a build order is delayed somehow by attacks. It's true for every build order
I love the idea, that was exposed in some response before, to build a lot of bases and lift off those to accompany ur BC it should confuse so much zerg opponent ! If you see song replays, he has more than 3k mineral before first attack in every game. if u spend this mineral in mass orbital/barrack it could be awesome to float those with ur army ! The zerg will BM/WTF you 80% of time because it's really look like you are trolling him ! Fun experience to make!
|
On August 14 2012 23:47 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +The build order only works if your opponent doesn't attack you for 20 minutes -.- did u see song replays? He got attacked before 20 min a lot of time ofc a build order is delayed somehow by attacks. It's true for every build order I love the idea, that was exposed in some response before, to build a lot of bases and lift off those to accompany ur BC it should confuse so much zerg opponent ! If you see song replays, he has more than 3k mineral before first attack in every game. if u spend this mineral in mass orbital/barrack it could be awesome to float those with ur army ! The zerg will BM/WTF you 80% of time because it's really look like you are trolling him ! Fun experience to make!
Yet all those attacks were never meant to blow the Terran up. They were mostly poke attacks to fake pressure to tech to BLs.
Fullon out attacks by Zerg can happen from 10-18minute with almost every unit in game.
|
And how exactly is this supposed to deal with muta/ling/bane?
|
On August 15 2012 00:31 syriuszonito wrote:
And how exactly is this supposed to deal with muta/ling/bane?
Watch the replays before you reply.
|
I'm a high gold player, I have never won a game with this strategy. Mutas always kill me. Latest game I played, I scouted and saw what looked like 100 lings and thought baneling bust, realized after it didn't happen that the player was going mutas, or changed his mind, and even with my whole base turrented and constant production of marines, I couldn't get out of my base to get a 3rd, and he just flew his mutas in, took out my turrents and 20 packs of marines guarding them, then flew out to kill other stuff in my base.
Short version: How do you deal with Mutas?
|
On August 15 2012 02:02 Tarrot wrote:
I'm a high gold player, I have never won a game with this strategy. Mutas always kill me. Latest game I played, I scouted and saw what looked like 100 lings and thought baneling bust, realized after it didn't happen that the player was going mutas, or changed his mind, and even with my whole base turrented and constant production of marines, I couldn't get out of my base to get a 3rd, and he just flew his mutas in, took out my turrents and 20 packs of marines guarding them, then flew out to kill other stuff in my base.
Short version: How do you deal with Mutas?
Marines, turrets, PDD's, bunkers. a lot of turrets. Also mutas delay his tech tree so you can delay yours a little bit too and invest more into marines
|
I'm just not sure if this can really work. It seems like all of the games you played against pro players, they didn't see it coming and had no way of dealing with it. It seems like if they knew how to deal with it, it would be an easy win for them. I hope it gains some traction and we can see it put to the test.
|
On August 15 2012 05:12 9-BiT wrote:
I'm just not sure if this can really work. It seems like all of the games you played against pro players, they didn't see it coming and had no way of dealing with it. It seems like if they knew how to deal with it, it would be an easy win for them. I hope it gains some traction and we can see it put to the test.
How would they have known it was coming? The build doesn't have that many tells because it opens fairly standard with Marines/Tank with the scouting Hellions. Making Viking(s) to clear out Overlords and deny scouting is fairly common and doesn't really give anything away. Even a lone Banshee isn't uncommon and doesn't give anything away either.
The first thing that might give away this build is the fact that the Terran will seem to have quite a few Ravens earlier than usual. However, since Ravens are being used more and more lately, this is somewhat inconclusive. Usually it's some sort of MMM/Tank/Vikings + Ravens against the Zerg BL/Infestor deathball. He would probably conclude that you are cutting Medivacs in favor of getting Ravens earlier to build energy for HSM.
The only thing that would definitively reveal BC's would be him scouting your Fusion Core directly. You can deny all scouting into your main with natural walloff + Vikings to clear out nearby Overlords. Thus the only way he could reasonably scout your Fusion Core would be if he went Mass Mutas. But since you will have a massive amount of minerals with this build, you can dump them into Marines, Bunkers, Turrets to hold on until you get your army built up.
As for what they could have done to deal with it... what would you propose then? You can't win with a ground army because then it turns into a base race which the Terran will win. There are only so many Zerg units that can attack air. Hyun and Haypro both tried Infestor/Corruptor which is probably the best solution assuming you control well. Would mass mutas work? Maybe. Hydras? Terrible. Mass Queens? Mass Spores? Both are stopped by PDD/Yamato. Seems like the only other option would be mass mutas. They don't stand a chance in a direct fight, but it might be mobile enough to win a base race.
|
On August 15 2012 05:43 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 05:12 9-BiT wrote:
I'm just not sure if this can really work. It seems like all of the games you played against pro players, they didn't see it coming and had no way of dealing with it. It seems like if they knew how to deal with it, it would be an easy win for them. I hope it gains some traction and we can see it put to the test. How would they have known it was coming? The build doesn't have that many tells because it opens fairly standard with Marines/Tank with the scouting Hellions. Making Viking(s) to clear out Overlords and deny scouting is fairly common and doesn't really give anything away. Even a lone Banshee isn't uncommon and doesn't give anything away either. The first thing that might give away this build is the fact that the Terran will seem to have quite a few Ravens earlier than usual. However, since Ravens are being used more and more lately, this is somewhat inconclusive. Usually it's some sort of MMM/Tank/Vikings + Ravens against the Zerg BL/Infestor deathball. He would probably conclude that you are cutting Medivacs in favor of getting Ravens earlier to build energy for HSM. The only thing that would definitively reveal BC's would be him scouting your Fusion Core directly. You can deny all scouting into your main with natural walloff + Vikings to clear out nearby Overlords. Thus the only way he could reasonably scout your Fusion Core would be if he went Mass Mutas. But since you will have a massive amount of minerals with this build, you can dump them into Marines, Bunkers, Turrets to hold on until you get your army built up. As for what they could have done to deal with it... what would you propose then? You can't win with a ground army because then it turns into a base race which the Terran will win. There are only so many Zerg units that can attack air. Hyun and Haypro both tried Infestor/Corruptor which is probably the best solution assuming you control well. Would mass mutas work? Maybe. Hydras? Terrible. Mass Queens? Mass Spores? Both are stopped by PDD/Yamato. Seems like the only other option would be mass mutas. They don't stand a chance in a direct fight, but it might be mobile enough to win a base race.
Also, if terran is not absolutely forced to, i think it's good to hide ravens for most of the time behind the bunkers etc so that zerg will not see them.
|
thanks for the excellent guide Matiz. Also i remember you from ra3 community with your awesome t2 soviet pushes and sick terror drone micro hopefully you can work your build making magic in this game like you did back than.
|
Also i had one issue in masters with this build were my opponent was playing aggressive so he had a fair amount of lings and he used them to camp my third before i could land it and make it into a pf any advice? I felt like it was hard to take third vs some one who is going for a very agro stlye.
|
On August 15 2012 14:26 washikie wrote:
Also i had one issue in masters with this build were my opponent was playing aggressive so he had a fair amount of lings and he used them to camp my third before i could land it and make it into a pf any advice? I felt like it was hard to take third vs some one who is going for a very agro stlye.
That's also the purpose of the 1 banshee that u make, he can't just camp outside if u have it or he will suffer heavy losses. Also the crawl of the bunkers and also if he plays aggressive then it's fine. The timings of the build are set up if opponent is playing passive. If he is aggressive then it means he delays his construction of deathball so a terran can do it as well and invest more in marine tank phase and delay the bc/raven
|
On August 15 2012 05:43 Sevenofnines wrote:
Mass Queens? Mass Spores? Both are stopped by PDD/Yamato.
AFAIK PDD doesn't stop queen attacks ...
|
Have been trying it, when everything works out as intended it's a good build and zergs can't really kill your army anymore, but getting there you're much too fragile if the zerg has a feeling for your weakness.
I've felt better when combining it with stim+hellion 9 minute pressure to be both safe early game and to punish zerg greed, and going into 4 bases and airplay as a follow up.
|
|
|
I have problems engaging when they neural my ravens and use HSM against me, since air units stack up, it usually gets screwed.
|
On August 16 2012 01:58 FayZe wrote:
I have problems engaging when they neural my ravens and use HSM against me, since air units stack up, it usually gets screwed.
Thats a mirco issue right there, Spreading your ravens and not just a-moving them into the battle helps out. Then begins a dance of death with your ravens, the only problem is infestors outrange them. Use your Bc's to yamato those infestors while you bring your ravens forward (unclumped).
|
PDD definitely does stop the queens air attack. Not sure about the new ground one, but I'm confident about the air one.
|
IEM game 2 between Nestea and MVP, MVP did a late transition into sky terran and decimated Nestea. Check it out!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
