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Hotkey setups - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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StarGalaxy
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany744 Posts
August 04 2012 11:24 GMT
#41
I use "tab" quite a bid so his setting wouldn't be for me.
the "W" Warpgate hotkey works just fine for me. It also shows the cooldown. Maybe that was different in the past?
I use Q for the warp in pylon.

Instead of the "0" hotkey which is too far away i use the one left from the "1".
Cj hero | Zest
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 04 2012 14:33 GMT
#42
On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
How do you feel the pinky is overused? While I use an older release of theCore, the only functions it has are attack, hold position, and a camera hotkey.

+ Show Spoiler +

Attack and hold position are probably the fastest keys in all of Starcraft 2 if you do hit-and-run micro. These 2 keys alone are how my avg EPM breaks 100 during intense games. Alternating between the two fastest keys with the same weakest finger on the hand is the worst possible layout. It's actually the primary reason I abandoned Core.


On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
I also think the WASD format was adopted to form an easy shape for people to understand what key relates with which direction, personally I find it uncomfortable as it cramps my somewhat large hands together.

+ Show Spoiler +

I do agree that WASD is inapropriate for large hands. Unfortunately I've never had to work with large hands, as my engineering work on this field was solely in Asia (operators all had small hands), so I can't give you specific advice other than to spread the keys out. Your greater span will allow you to hit far more keys.


On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
Are you accounting for the tilt of the keyboard?


+ Show Spoiler +
I'm assuming you mean altitude tilt and not azimuthal. Yes. Mini apple-like keyboards have a very slight tilt, which is far more optimal than having a thicker or more tilted keyboard. Ideally, you want both hands to be "grounded" on the pisiform bone to maximize both hand speed AND accuracy. If you accept that statement, then keyboards should have very little tilt to them. Apple's industrial designers are the best in the world, and their form factor agrees with this assesment.


On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
I don't see how putting build keys on the pinky fingers addresses the "overuse" of the pinky finger, in a far worse position as well.


+ Show Spoiler +
The pinky should have as little movement as possible and should have macro keys that aren't timing critical. The build keys are perfect for this function, especially since grid layout users are already used to this kind of placement. It's extremely rare for you to need to build and then advance build in a rapid keystroke sequence. Since the pinky (on a small hand) naturally falls somewhere between B and N, this minimizes stroke effort for both keys.



On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
how do you shift queue your attacks? just thinking about that brings pain to my index finger.

+ Show Spoiler +

I agree. This is the biggest flaw in the layout. Currently, I hold shift/attack with my thumb. If these minis didn't shrink the left arrow key, it would be far, far easier to perform, but it's definitely a pain and not so reliable. I used to also make the control button a shift key and just hold down both control & left arrow with my thumb to shift attack queue, but that led to muscle memory confusion on which shift key to press at which time, and having the shift button that far underneath my hand was a nightmare for control groups. I don't use the index finger for shift+attack queueing. That brings my hand into a suboptimal position for follow-up strokes.

If you have suggestions on this part, I'd love to hear, as I hate how I have to avoid shift+attack in intense situations.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 04 2012 17:41 GMT
#43
On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
I'm going to assume you mean "it should not be done because the index finger is significantly shorter than the middle finger".


Correct.

On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
TheCore uses a tilted hand position, coming in at a 80-ish degree angle instead of a perpendicular 90 degree angle


+ Show Spoiler +
I've spent a lifetime using keys at a 90 degree angle. Quickly hitting keys at some other angle significantly hinders my accuracy, especially with such low profile keys. Maybe with hulking mechanical keys this isn't as big an issue.

On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
...it does have your middle finger curl a bit more. I and many others find it comfortable, and it allows easy reach to the keys above the middle finger.


+ Show Spoiler +
The more curled middle finger caused severe joint paint in my middle finger after doing Core for 5 days. I too initially thought it would be comfortable, but it must transmit a stroke impulse differently to cause that much pain. Perhaps my middle finger is so much longer than my index that it has to be too curled, as I think I needed to be closer to 60 degrees for all fingers to home properly. (That may also be why hitting non-home keys was so difficult) I had my colleague and my brother try positioning their hands, and they had the same issues with an overly curled finger. However, both of their index fingers were also very short.


On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2012 14:42 yevoc wrote: The act of moving the index finger up a row from its home position also doesn't incur much stroke penalty, but moving the index finger down 2 rows (as it would in Core) yields a far more significant penalty.
I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify?


+ Show Spoiler +
With JIOP, your fingers are at the top of the keyboard, meaning you have to move your fingers down 2 rows to hit some keys. That movement is extremely slow and awkward. My layout has the same problem with the "," key, and it's quite difficult/tedious to burrow as a result.



On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
The index is a fantastic finger, agreed. But no matter how fast you are with it, you cannot match the speed and ease of using 2 fingers for 2 sequential tasks....While the index is great, alternation is faster and less straining. It's multitasking on the finger level.


+ Show Spoiler +
This hadn't occured to me, and I wholeheartedly agree. All of my engineering field work with the hand didn't involve optimizing for more than 1-2 speedy keystrokes, so it's no surprise that my layout has a dearth of trilling/alternation options.

This point and the shift+attack queueing are significant flaws in my layout that need addressing.


On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
EDIT: Since we're always looking to improve our setup, I ran your finger positioning (NJIL) through our testing process we used to determine our layouts. I was pleasantly surprised by how well it performed! Nice. Unfortunately, there are several major issues with the possitioning that make us unable to use it. If you are curious, I can list them.


I have (almost) no ego to bruise. I posted my layout in order to hear its weaknesses, so I would love to hear more about it. If this ends up refining the Core to be better than my existing layout, I would certainly switch back to it. To me this is all about being optimal, not being "right."
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
aviator116
Profile Joined November 2011
United States820 Posts
August 04 2012 18:07 GMT
#44
Is the Core really that good of a setup? I play Masters for P/T, and recently have been trying to improve my hotkeys and mechanics, since I've been using standard setup since I started.
Bogus ST_Life IMMVP
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
August 04 2012 18:32 GMT
#45
Let's try not to make this into a second topic for discussing theCore. Post on its thread if you want to talk about theCore.
Kaleidos
Profile Joined October 2010
Italy172 Posts
August 04 2012 18:43 GMT
#46
On August 05 2012 03:07 aviator116 wrote:
Is the Core really that good of a setup? I play Masters for P/T, and recently have been trying to improve my hotkeys and mechanics, since I've been using standard setup since I started.


I think people should make their own setup and adjust it to their personal needs rather than force themselves to use a premade one. There are dozens of hotkey setup threads already; just take what you think is good from each one of those and forge your own Best hotkey setup.
TheAngryZergling
Profile Joined January 2011
United States387 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 18:59:09
August 04 2012 18:55 GMT
#47
I've been using thecore as well. It undoubtedly improves macro after getting used to it and after a long time, allows for micro to improve as well. Punishes pressing the wrong key harshly in some situations but practice minimizes such mispresses.


On August 05 2012 03:32 Antylamon wrote:
Let's try not to make this into a second topic for discussing theCore. Post on its thread if you want to talk about theCore.


If the most knowledgeable man in starcraft says he would legitimately like to hear people's ideas on different hotkey setups, I'm going to honor his request.
Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 19:24:37
August 04 2012 19:21 GMT
#48
I wrote up the mother of all replies. I lost it. My wrists can't take any more typing. This sucks so bad.

EDIT: If anyone else wants to avoid this terrible situation, install https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/loljledaigphbcpfhfmgopdkppkifgno/related?hl=en-US Lazerus for chrome (one for firefox too).

Why is this not standard?

I'm going to go cry into the toilet bowl of self pity now.
Fossa
Profile Joined July 2011
United States67 Posts
August 04 2012 19:34 GMT
#49
My hotkey setup is quite simple and will work in hots.

I use grid.
I changed the location hotkeys to shift f2-f6.
I changed 890 to yhn.
It's just like typing on one side of the keyboard so it's really easy.
Fossa
Profile Joined July 2011
United States67 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 19:37:52
August 04 2012 19:37 GMT
#50
oops double post
dizzieX
Profile Joined November 2011
Spain5 Posts
August 04 2012 20:46 GMT
#51
I use grid but i use asdfg for the bottom row (so spells are easier to press) and zxcvb for the medium row. aditionally f1-f4 and tab are camera keys and space for tabbing. It feels really easy to macro as terran. A production cycle will go something like this 4qq (scvs) 5qqq space w space ww (marine tank medivac)
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 05 2012 00:51 GMT
#52
On August 05 2012 03:32 Antylamon wrote:
Let's try not to make this into a second topic for discussing theCore. Post on its thread if you want to talk about theCore.


Artosis asked for hotkey setups/ideas, so I posted mine. It happened to fly in the face of the Core, hence the discussion. I think FoxyMayhem's uber-reply-that-went-poof was more focused on how he tests layouts as well as the flaws in my particular layout.

@Foxy: Losing that post was more my loss than yours, and I definitely feel it. I hope you can manage to retype it in a few days.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 01:23:21
August 05 2012 01:18 GMT
#53
Yes, it was about efficiency models, testing, key reach penalties, and refining key series. Entirely relevant to the conversation.

@Yevoc: we could use VOIP. Save me a crapton of pain and time. Message me if you're interested.

Also, thanks for the kind words! <3
Asmodeusx
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
286 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 01:53:43
August 05 2012 01:44 GMT
#54
I unbound everything, decided what hotkeys will be the best and rebound it the way it makes sense. Anyone who comes from high level wow pvp knows how to deal with 50+ hotkeys, so SC2 is very simple when it comes to menaging the keyboard. If you have to reach past 6tgb then you're doing it wrong.

Also, people playing with right hand on the keyboard have another advantage.If you're not a pro yet, you should consider switching your hands like Athene who is actually not a "leftie" but he thought himself to use mouse with left hand and keyboard with right one.

Examples of my hotkeys + Show Spoiler +

[~]warpgates (i slide my finger through this key and tab for instant warpin in the set location under tab camera position)
[1] ctrl grp 1 (main army)
[2] ctrl grp 2 (caster type1, scouting unit)
[3] ctrl grp 3 (caster type2 or unit that may require pulling back (colossi/immortals)
[4] ctrl grp 4 (surgical strike units, phoenixes, anti drop stalkers, blink stalkers in army)
[5] ctrl grp 5 (observer)
[6] ctrl grp 6 (Mothership or additional warp prisms or additional observers)
[t] ctrl grp 7 (Nexi)
[g] ctrl grp 8 (Robo)
[v] ctrl grp 9 (Stargate)
[c] ctrl grp 0 (Forges & other buildings with upgrades)
F1-F5 + Tab camera position hotkeys
[Caps lock] idle worker

[q] Primary unit ability (build structure, FF, Feedback, recall, blink, graviton beam)
[w] Secondary unit ability (build advanced structure, guardian shield, vortex)
[e] hold position
[r] patrol
[a] attack
[s] stop
[d] return cargo
[f] tertiary unit ability (archon, hallucination - phoenix set to F so i can just double tap F for phoenix hallucination)
[b] cancel - much faster to reach than Esc

All buildings in the worker build menu's are set to QWEASDF

Ctrl+A rotates camera to the left
Ctrl+S rotates camera to the right
(usefull when targetting SCV's building structure/bunker or when blocking a choke with probe/zealot)

[z] base camera
[space] next subgroup (ctrl+space is previous subgroup)
Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm.
-IntEnZ-
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden50 Posts
August 05 2012 01:46 GMT
#55
Use tab and space for locations and f1,f2. Other than that pretty much standard hotkeys. Watched the video, great content as usual.
NewDawn
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada120 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 02:29:14
August 05 2012 02:28 GMT
#56
On August 03 2012 04:29 Milsberry wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 31 2012 00:21 Trasko wrote:
I've never actually tried custom hotkeys. I suppose it's pretty beneficial?


It's very very beneficial. I used standard hotkeys at first. Was stuck in gold for a little while lol. Made all custom hotkeys and I'm now high diamond facing masters here and there. Planning on adding even more hotkeys as well.

I could never even imagine going back to standard hotkeys.

I've essentially set up hotkeys where all of the main casted abilities are "Q" and "E". Warping in I just hit w and then shift and spam Q for zealots, E for sentries, R for stalkers, etc. I mostly use q,w,e,r,f,d for keybinds. 1-5 for ctrl groups and ive added 6 and 7 with the help of my mouse. Main thing I need to add now is camera location keys.

For building I use similar hotkeys. To build a gateway I grab a probe and hit q twice. To build a robo I hit e twice. Etc.


Okay let's be honest here. Changing your hotkeys isn't going to make you suddenly improve in skill. There is no way that making things easier to reach suddenly moves you from gold to masters MMR. While it makes you more efficient with regards to your mechanics, it does nothing to your game sense/decision making. I'm only saying this because I'm at the same spot you're at (High Diamond playing Masters here and there), and I basically use standard hotkeys, with a few tweaks here and there. I'm not saying custom hotkeys are wrong/bad, but it's personal preference really.

Anyways, to be relevant:

Screen positions (Shift) F1-F8 (I only use 1-5 though.)
Idle Workers on Space
Lift/Land on Capslock
Raise Supply Depot on F/R
Ghost Energy/Pre-Igniter on R
0 on `
Patrol on Q
Bunker on Y/U

+ Show Spoiler +
When I play Protoss:
Immortal on R
Probe on S

When I play Zerg:
Lair on R
Infestation Pit on F
Zerg Speed on B
이지은 | 송지은 | 정은지 | 홧팅 ~ !
fNacks
Profile Joined March 2010
United States39 Posts
August 05 2012 03:50 GMT
#57
Very interesting and informative video. Like he stated, most of the StarCraft II hotkeys are already optimal, especially compared to Brood War. But some of them do indeed need to be changed. I've never thought of changing the Guardian Shield hotkey, but that's probably because I've never really had a problem of hitting it by mistake. For me, being a Protoss player, I've changed Immortal and Mothership to 'R', and Patrol to 'Q', I've also moved the location hotkeys to F2 - F8, with F1 for idle workers, and I unbinded the spacebar (don't want to accidentally jump to last alert during battles), and all of the camera-shifting hotkeys. I don't want to accidentally hit a camera hotkey during a battle either, plus it's more Brood War-y.
"No worry, I use special tactics." - White-Ra
flyingteapot
Profile Joined August 2011
United States11 Posts
August 05 2012 06:41 GMT
#58
I also use TheCore but I have switched the camera position recall (Shift + Ctrl) and camera position set (Alt) hot-keys around because I found it a bit unwieldy to have to press Shift and Ctrl every time I wanted to recall a camera position
CaptainAmerica
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States89 Posts
August 05 2012 07:33 GMT
#59
Awesome vid, Artosis! You ever think of changing the space bar with control? I find that I use the control key far more than the space bar. I like having it as the larger key and right under my thumb. Then, I can slam (not really slam, but an emphatic punch) the side of my pinky down on the control key for any alerts.

Also, do you recommend two keyboards - one for gaming and one for typing? I've removed keys before and prefer gaming that way, but need those keys when I'm typing out of SC2.

GL HF
Give Credit Where It's Due
Avaroth
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Finland44 Posts
September 12 2012 09:44 GMT
#60
I have a small question for the hotkey experts out there. Is there an easy way to bind the ><-key found on EU keyboards? SC2 doesn't seem to recognise this key by default. The key is next to Z as you can see in this pic: Steelseries 6gv2 Nordic.

This key is quite well placed and I would love to bind something to this.
My garden is well. How is yours?
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