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Hotkey setups

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Artosis *
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States2140 Posts
July 30 2012 09:13 GMT
#1
Hey all, I finally made a video displaying my hotkey setup for Protoss in SC2. Mine is by no means the best setup available, but I think its a valuable video in at least starting some discussion on the topic.



I'd legitimately like to hear people's ideas on different hotkey setups.

Enjoy!~~
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/Artosis
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
July 30 2012 09:16 GMT
#2
Thanks for the video Artosis! Some interesting thoughts indeed. Personally i don't really like removing my windows key because it's basically one of the most useful keys outside of starcraft but hey, whatever floats ones boat :p
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-30 09:19:46
July 30 2012 09:18 GMT
#3
I've been following the The Core, it makes a lot of sense and think it deserves some merit.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878
FlashDave.999 aka Star
bgalang92
Profile Joined February 2011
United States155 Posts
July 30 2012 09:37 GMT
#4
I also recommend the Core! I'm a 750ish pt Masters Toss and its helped me so much, especially with using all eight camera location hotkeys, and I usually use 7-8 control groups per game compared to the 3 before. I am a much more mechanically strong macro player with this layout.
Indrium
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2236 Posts
July 30 2012 09:44 GMT
#5
Haha I love the key stuff at the beginning and end. Very clever.

I personally put 9 and 0 on my mouse buttons, and I usually have those as an observer/WP. I find that very helpful, it's very convenient access and it saves me from having to press 9 and 0.

The tab/q thing sounds cool, Artosis. What do you use for, well, tab? I'd imagine there's certain points you'd want to tab through an army or building set.

I'm definitely switching guardian shield. I have done that. Feels bad.

And I also swapped the camera on f2-f5. I should probably do f1-f4 but I'm too used to the idle worker hotkey.
ThePastor
Profile Joined February 2012
New Zealand380 Posts
July 30 2012 09:45 GMT
#6
I just watched this, really cool Artosis, inspired me to share the little change that I have made (well it has made a huge difference to me) to my jump to location hotkeys for injects.

I have changed Create Location 1 - 8 to F2 - F9 instead of the ctrl+F# key (explanation in a sec).
I have changed Zoom to Location 1-8 to Shift + Q,W,E,R,T,Y,U,I
I have shifted Infested Terran to X
I have changed Hotkey 0 to ` which is used for queens.

The main reason for this change is that I dislike the lack of control behind the backspace/spacebar inject methods and most others because of slow speed or lack of control. So my method (which I obv. didn't invent) is to select queens (`) press Shift + V then can just hold my shift key and cycle through all my hatches, Q W E R T Y U I. None of those keys require shift to be used with them so it doesn't overlap anything (because infested Terran is shifted). I find shift + Q-I much easier then reaching up for the F1-9 keys, it means a lot less finger stretching! Oh, and obviously I set the camera locations as I expand.

Hope this helps someone!
JaxxUK
Profile Joined March 2012
20 Posts
July 30 2012 09:47 GMT
#7
Its interesting to see the thought behind some peoples hotkeys, but I still believe that hotkey layout doesn't matter that much. If you can touch type then thats all you need. IF anything grid is the best set up as the hotkeys are the same on all races.

dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-30 10:05:38
July 30 2012 10:04 GMT
#8
Interesting. I don't agree though with moving Guardian Shield. If you think about it, the problem is actually the Hold hotkey being on the right side of the keyboard, not the Guardian Shield hotkey (you will never miss G when you go for it, as you can do it without moving your hand and is meant to be pressed by your left hand as opposed to H which you are "supposed" to press with your right hand when typing). Therefore, it makes a lot more sense to move the Hold hotkey. Sadly there do not seem to be many alternatives as all units share the Hold command so there will be a lot of conflicts. However, the Z key is one that can be used for this.

Other than that I use primarily default hotkeys, I just move over all the hotkeys on the right side of the keyboard to the left side -- at least the hotkeys I use frequently, probably forgot some. Luckily there are not many hotkeys on the right side


Patrol :: P -> Q
Hold :: H -> Z
Immortal :: I -> R


For Terran I have also moved the Lift hotkey from L (seriously, it's so freakin' far away) to F, and Bunker from U to A.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 30 2012 10:20 GMT
#9
A nice change i had was using ` and y for my 9th and 10th control groups to use for harassy units which you might only need to use once in a while.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Kaleidos
Profile Joined October 2010
Italy172 Posts
July 30 2012 10:30 GMT
#10
Working a lot on my hotkey setup i came up with some similar choices, like having my rally point on tab (being zerg) and base locations on f1 to f4.
Not going deep into details there is a couple of changes that you may worth considering.

1) What about moving -Add to ctrl group- to alt+group key and -create group- to alt+-key close to group key- ?
ex. group 2, add to it with alt 2, create group with alt+w

I really enjoy the hand positioning using this.

2) As a general rule trying to have spells keys close to the group key with the proper unit.

I think you are already improving your setup in this direction tho
..my next step was to put the main spell of each unit on Spacebar (being inject, fungal, storm or drop for prism/ovi/medivac)

You may consider using base locations to build/check your tech so that you free your spacebar for something else!
StaraCroft
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria292 Posts
July 30 2012 10:37 GMT
#11
I've recently started putting my backspace on space so I can use chrono like zergs use larva inject, which is really helpful especially if you do greedy fast 3rd builds where you have to do a ton of powering and scouting while constantly chronoing probes, so that helps a lot. Otherwise my hotkey setup is pretty shit, but I feel inspired to rethink a couple of things now, so thanks for that ♥
Bango
Profile Joined April 2011
United States106 Posts
July 30 2012 15:05 GMT
#12
i think switching patrol to "q" is pretty good as well (for zerg)
ello x]
Qgelfich
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany90 Posts
July 30 2012 15:12 GMT
#13
Can you make a more general video someday? This one is really centered about your protoss setup, but i'd love to hear your oppinion on hotkeys for the other races. For example i play mostly zerg and i only rebound backspace to X (so i can cycle through my hatches fast) and controllgroups 6 and 7 to mouse 3 and 4.

Also i agree that you should probably rebind your patroll key, it just seems needlessly far away.
Zeweig
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden189 Posts
July 30 2012 15:17 GMT
#14
F1 to the "bar" key, the one left of 1, it's the best key-switch I've ever done. Other than that, shift+q, shift+w, shift+e and shift+r for "jump to screen location 1,2,3,4" and space to "jump between bases".
Commentator for Esports Heaven, covering mainly European and Chinese events. I do observing and writing on the side.
Trasko
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Sweden983 Posts
July 30 2012 15:21 GMT
#15
I've never actually tried custom hotkeys. I suppose it's pretty beneficial?
Jaedong <3
snexwang
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia224 Posts
July 30 2012 15:44 GMT
#16
Rebound cycle base camera to tilde.
Removed 6 and rebound to TAB (I use this for T3 units).
Rebound first four camera positions to 7,8,9,0 (next four on F5-F8).
Rebound 7,8,9,0 to F1-F4 (inject queens).
Rebound patrol to W.
Rebound select idle worker to space.
Removed left Windows, capslock, hyphen and equals keys.
Zanno
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1484 Posts
July 30 2012 15:53 GMT
#17
Thank you for finally posting this, I've been waiting to hear your ideas for months now.

The only thing I have to contribute to this discussion is that I noticed you can double bind hotkeys. So for units that are reactored, i bound two keys - for example, i have marines bound to both a and f. So i can go fafafafa really quickly and crank out a specific number of units with better accuracy than holding down a and waiting for keyboard repeat to kick in. This is probably not useful to protoss, but you could probably apply it to zerg too.
aaaaa
velvex
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany226 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-30 20:03:05
July 30 2012 20:02 GMT
#18
Something that helped me a lot (and was somehow incredibly easy to get used to) is flipping Control and Shift functions of control groups so that Control+Number adds units to a group and Shift+Number resets it. This makes two things much more comfortable: first, if you want to add eggs or units at a rally point to a control group, you can just hold down Control, click on the eggs in the command card or the units on the main screen and add them to a control group almost simultaneously by pressing the number key.

Second, if you have units in a control group and want to remove them from it, you can deselect the respective units in the command card and rebind the control group by holding Shift all through the process. Those of you who play Zerg like I do, will do that often when sending Zerglings to towers, to your opponent's expansions to block them, or to attack banelings with small numbers of lings.

I am not sure how much this applies to the other races. If anyone of you presses Control with the outer part of your palm like I do (if any), it might be helpful even if you play one of the other races. At least I feel more comfortable pressing Control that way than Shift with my pinky, and when playing you usually add units to a control group more often than rebind one. It depends on hand position, too, though.

Nice video, btw!
RiSkysc2
Profile Joined September 2011
696 Posts
July 30 2012 20:28 GMT
#19
I was a former FPS player and MMO player, with no RTS experience, so my fingers whenever they even touched a keyboard would always gravitate towards wasd, therefore i tried to take advantage of this and moved the building stuff for probes to s and d as well as using W for warpgates... I really liked the tab camera hotkey and the space hotkey for upgrades, so i'm now using those and i think i'm getting used to them, i specifically like the spacebar . Already used camera hotkeys 1-7 before so i used camera hotkey 8 for the warp in one as well as the rally point .
Nimbl3
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia49 Posts
July 31 2012 00:29 GMT
#20
Thanks for your vid Artosis was very informative for me.

As every1 says: "good hot key set up is a good start to becoming a better player". In the end every1 has their own set up and some peoples hands are "quicker" and "different sized". Its good to see other peoples set ups, makes me wanna play around with mine a lot more now.

Dream as if you will live for ever, Live as if you would die today
Cuber
Profile Joined August 2006
Poland48 Posts
July 31 2012 00:51 GMT
#21
Just taking a few hotkeys from the right side to the left, and adding center base camera to space made my game a lot better. Nothing else I need.
ThePastor
Profile Joined February 2012
New Zealand380 Posts
July 31 2012 00:53 GMT
#22
Oooo another little good one is to rebind select idle workers from F1 to Alt, makes for easy idle worker selectiong as shift/ctrl is so close to alt!
Vronti
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-31 02:45:19
July 31 2012 01:34 GMT
#23
Can't watch this video at the moment, but I'm looking forward to giving it a look when I get home. I very recently switched my hotkey setup over to The Core setup aka_star linked on the first page (Terran TRM setup). It is very well designed and thought out (much like the Dvorak keyboard) and I've really been appreciating it so far. I'm only a gold league Terran so I can't take advantage of much of it as much as I'd like, but learning has been a very positive experience so far. My hand has to move so little it actually feels odd, but a good kind of odd. Anyhow I'll edit once I have a chance to watch your take on things.

EDIT:
Got the chance to watch it, great video and insight! I especially like the focus on the Tab-Q-E setup there, things like that can really change your game for the better. Once I get used to The Core I'll have to see if I can optimize anymore with combinations of the sort.

P.S. Intro/Outro were awesome, unique and perfectly themed.

EDIT 2:
Just saw Zasg's post above me (wrote my reply on page 1 so missed it). Especially when I get into the late-game, I forget about idle SCVs very easily and F1 etc isn't something I ever hit/think about. Making that easier is a great idea, especially for lower-league fellows like me.
"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest." — Confucius
Crugio
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Australia45 Posts
July 31 2012 02:20 GMT
#24
The Core definitely has the best analysis and discussion I've seen on hotkey setups and takes a scientific, turn everything on its head approach.

Very difficult learning curve and some people aren't willing to spend the time to relearn, or pop out keys or move away from WASD. Even if you don't like the Core, there is amazing analysis that can be used in "your own" setup.
I'm in a world of hurt!
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-31 03:07:24
July 31 2012 02:59 GMT
#25
If you find combos that you think can be optimized Vronti, make sure and tell us in TheCore thread. We've tried to optimize a ton, >100 different combos, depending on how you measure them. But this is one of the easiest areas to let something slip through the cracks, and we don't want that!
Milsberry
Profile Joined January 2012
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 19:34:56
August 02 2012 19:29 GMT
#26
On July 31 2012 00:21 Trasko wrote:
I've never actually tried custom hotkeys. I suppose it's pretty beneficial?


It's very very beneficial. I used standard hotkeys at first. Was stuck in gold for a little while lol. Made all custom hotkeys and I'm now high diamond facing masters here and there. Planning on adding even more hotkeys as well.

I could never even imagine going back to standard hotkeys.

I've essentially set up hotkeys where all of the main casted abilities are "Q" and "E". Warping in I just hit w and then shift and spam Q for zealots, E for sentries, R for stalkers, etc. I mostly use q,w,e,r,f,d for keybinds. 1-5 for ctrl groups and ive added 6 and 7 with the help of my mouse. Main thing I need to add now is camera location keys.

For building I use similar hotkeys. To build a gateway I grab a probe and hit q twice. To build a robo I hit e twice. Etc.
rofllocktree
Profile Joined May 2012
Netherlands45 Posts
August 03 2012 05:57 GMT
#27
great vid, thx.

Does anybody know if there is something similar for Terran players?

I like to see finger/hand placement video and hotkeys for terrar players.

thx
playa
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1284 Posts
August 03 2012 07:19 GMT
#28
Yeah, idle workers to alt and 8. Alt for when wanting to select all, and 8 for when wanting to individually select them. 1-7 control groups. F for nexi. S for robo(s). X for gateways if something takes over its original hotkey. Area keys: w,e,d,y,z (laptops F keys are silly). I suppose in theory it should/could make you better, but for a bare minimum effort kinda guy, I think it just encourages/allows one to be lazier. Convenience more than skill/results gain.
Glenn313
Profile Joined August 2011
United States475 Posts
August 03 2012 12:07 GMT
#29
Thank you Artosis. All of your videos are always informative.
Hey man
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 04 2012 04:14 GMT
#30
I'd like to give "The Core" props for getting the idea out that current SC keys are suboptimal, BUT I strongly disagree with their overuse of the pinky and the poor placement of the index finger, which is the most important finger. Using my experience with finger anatomy, I improved upon the Core's key placement until it was optimal for a short-index-fingered-male with small hands.

A picture is worth a thousand words... (Key layout)
+ Show Spoiler +
Apologies for the density of information. This is the Apple mini keyboard. Scissor-switch keys are just so dang fast! See the next picture below on why minis help out so much.

Teal is the "home row" for all 5 fingers, and the control groups are orange.

[image loading]

^ All 10 control groups are within immediate reach with very few keys for the weaker fingers. Transit times for the time-critical keystrokes are MUCH shorter with this setup. I'd also like to point out how much faster/easier these camera control buttons are than the function keys.

You may not need all 10 control groups as desperately if you're playing P or T, but when you have 5 queens, 3 armies, and hatches...let's just say I'm never going back to a Blizzard-made setup now. I don't know how any zerg manages it without severe compromises.


Hand position next to mouse...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

^ The greatest benefit to both having a mini keyboard AND using its right side of keys is that your mouse hand can now play super close to your left hand. I never knew that my mouse precision/speed would significantly increase just by placing it this much closer to my other hand.


EDIT: I forgot to add that spore crawlers are N.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
August 04 2012 04:59 GMT
#31
Could you please detail how you use the pointer finger more efficiently? It's not quite apparent to me so far.
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 04 2012 05:42 GMT
#32
On August 04 2012 13:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
Could you please detail how you use the pointer finger more efficiently? It's not quite apparent to me so far.


The index finger shouldn't start on the same row as the middle finger unless you have an abnormally long index finger. It's why WASD is....well WASD instead of WASE. The act of moving the index finger up a row from its home position also doesn't incur much stroke penalty, but moving the index finger down 2 rows (as it would in Core) yields a far more significant penalty.

Moreover, 8 to 10 keys are readily available to the index finger with minimal travel in this setup, and most of those are control groups to take advantage of the strength and speed of the index.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
Monsyphon
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada190 Posts
August 04 2012 05:47 GMT
#33
I use a modified version of Khenra's hotkey setting with location hotkeys accessed by Alt+Q,W,E,R,A,S,D,F and made by Ctrl+Shift+QWERTASDF, which i got from another hotkey setting I can't remember.... In case you dont know, Khenra puts every hotkey on the left side of the keyboard(12345qwert), and uses asdfgzxcvb tab and ` as everything else.
It's absolutely amazing and my hands literally does not move while I play, because everything is so packed together
Everyone should try it out, check out this thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254779
bgalang92
Profile Joined February 2011
United States155 Posts
August 04 2012 05:56 GMT
#34
yevoc I'm confused as well. I've been using theCore for weeks and find it the best thing to happen to my game. How do you feel the pinky is overused? While I use an older release of theCore, the only functions it has are attack, hold position, and a camera hotkey. I always used to A-move with my pinky in an even worse position so its comfortable to me, and its a rest position key. Its also a key that does not need to be spammed, so I don't mind it on the pinky.

I also think the WASD format was adopted to form an easy shape for people to understand what key relates with which direction, personally I find it uncomfortable as it cramps my somewhat large hands together.

Are you accounting for the tilt of the keyboard? I do see the function of your layout and think it works well with your keyboard, but having large hands and and a preference for my mechanical keyboard I don't see the benefit. I also think some of your changes don't make sense. I don't see how putting build keys on the pinky fingers addresses the "overuse" of the pinky finger, in a far worse position as well. And how do you shift queue your attacks? just thinking about that brings pain to my index finger.
Cyanocyst
Profile Joined October 2010
2222 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 06:20:58
August 04 2012 06:06 GMT
#35
I have a pretty different Zerg key setup for anybody who's curious. Though i put a lot of thought in to it.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Green: Queens (1 main, 2 nat, 3 third, 4 fourth)

Red: Army

Purple: Collective Hatches

Brown: Creep Queens

Blue (x): Overseer

Black: Rally point Camera save

7-0, Y, H: Camera Saves

The rest is harder to explain. 7-0 are actually all camera saves. However i don't set them by pressing control 7-0. I actually set them by pressing control A-F. For example if i wanted to save an area to 9, i would use control D to set it, but when i want to look at it i would just tap 9. I colored the keys accordingly to show this relationship.

The keys E to Y, and V to H also have this same camera set, to camera save relationship, hence why they are colored the same way. Example: i want to set an active creep tumor not near the queen, control V to set it, tap H to go back to it.


I won't bore you all with where i placed the upgrades and units keys, to make this possible.

Oh yeah, i actually wouldn't recommend the entirety of my setup to anybody. I was fairly new to RTS when SC2 came out and i just tried to make everything as comfortable as possible, for my small hands. Though there may be ideas or parts that can help others with their own, Hot-keying problems.

|| Fruit Dealer | Leenock | Yughio | Coca | Sniper | True | Solar | Dark |
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 07:15:02
August 04 2012 06:59 GMT
#36
On August 04 2012 14:42 yevoc wrote:The index finger shouldn't start on the same row as the middle finger unless you have an abnormally long index finger. It's why WASD is....well WASD instead of WASE.
Interesting point.

We try to work with physical reasons why a thing shouldn't be done. I'm going to assume you mean "it should not be done because the index finger is significantly shorter than the middle finger". Correct me if I'm wrong.

TheCore uses a tilted hand position, coming in at a 80-ish degree angle instead of a perpendicular 90 degree angle (what your setup uses). This makes the distance from knuckle to home key shorter for the index finger than it is for the middle finger, mimicking what you're talking about..

Also, it does have your middle finger curl a bit more. I and many others find it comfortable, and it allows easy reach to the keys above the middle finger.

On August 04 2012 14:42 yevoc wrote: The act of moving the index finger up a row from its home position also doesn't incur much stroke penalty, but moving the index finger down 2 rows (as it would in Core) yields a far more significant penalty.
I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify?

On August 04 2012 14:42 yevoc wrote: Moreover, 8 to 10 keys are readily available to the index finger with minimal travel in this setup, and most of those are control groups to take advantage of the strength and speed of the index.
The index is a fantastic finger, agreed. But no matter how fast you are with it, you cannot match the speed and ease of using 2 fingers for 2 sequential tasks. In the professional typing world, this is know as alternation.

When designing the previous layout, I ran speed test to see if this was true. At my very fastest, my index finger could double tap a key in 70ms. Using the index and ring, I was able to strike two keys in 24ms, with much less strain. I mean, I really had to yank my finger up and down to achieve 70 ms, and it caused strain. The double tap average was 95ish ms and the two finger strike average was 45ms, almost half the time and much less straining.

But, this is just tapping. When trying to activate two commands on two different keys, both struck by the index finger, the travel time delay is huge. For this example, assume the hand is resting on ASDF. Let's say we want to select your army control group and barracks control group, 2 commands. Army is G, barracks is T -- just for the sake of the example. The index finger must travel to G, press, travel to T, and then press. However, if barracks is on W, the ring finger can travel to W at the same time the index travels to G. 2 actions performed simultaneously, both speeding up the process and spreading the workload across the hand.

To give you some rough numbers, if I recall correctly GT:
1)Reach for G: 120ms,
2)Press: 20ms
3)Release: 15ms
4)Reach for T: 130ms
5)Press: 25ms
Total: 300ms (approx, if you're fast)

GW
1) Reach for G and W: 140ms (approximate total time, although it doesn't take much/any longer to get to G)
2) Press G: 20ms
3) Observe: 50ms (I have to add this here, since the fingers aren't the slowest thing, human observation is)
4) Press W: 20ms
Total: 230ms (approx, with less strain)
(Note: release times did not need to be calculated since the next action did not require the same finger)

If you're not looking at your selections, and say commanding two army groups, you can cut the third step out for an approximate total of 180ms.

Disclaimer: This is from memory, I may have some of the numbers off. In fact, I think I may be seriously underselling the speed difference, but best to err on the side of not exaggerating. I think the travel time to keys may be closer to 250ms than 150ms...

The effect gets even greater when you have 3 or 4 actions on one finger, versus spread across several. In some cases, it lets you execute actions twice as fast with significantly less strain.

While the index is great, alternation is faster and less straining. It's multitasking on the finger level.

EDIT: Since we're always looking to improve our setup, I ran your finger positioning (NJIL) through our testing process we used to determine our layouts. I was pleasantly surprised by how well it performed! Nice. Unfortunately, there are several major issues with the possitioning that make us unable to use it. If you are curious, I can list them.
kldfg
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany59 Posts
August 04 2012 08:31 GMT
#37
On July 30 2012 18:16 Fragile51 wrote:
Thanks for the video Artosis! Some interesting thoughts indeed. Personally i don't really like removing my windows key because it's basically one of the most useful keys outside of starcraft but hey, whatever floats ones boat :p



...or you have several keyboards

I use hotkey setups for most programs I use, and two different keyboards--one for games.
No Quote.
Natespank
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada449 Posts
August 04 2012 08:49 GMT
#38
Looks like The Core finally provoked him to make it :D
cskalias.pbe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States293 Posts
August 04 2012 08:52 GMT
#39
Videos like these are always very thoughtful and informative. As a strait up Terran, it's fascinating to see what the P is doing on their end at at higher levels from a mechanics context
Avek
Profile Joined December 2011
United States5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 10:11:25
August 04 2012 10:11 GMT
#40
Thanks a lot for taking the time to makes this video, really helps my understanding of hotkey setups and usage.

Personally, I use a variety of small changes that I believe give me an advantage. I'll include my changes as a list for your viewing pleasure. (DISCLAIMER: I'm a platinum Zerg on the NA server.)

* I changed the Number 0 key to also be bound to my back button on my mouse (logitech mx518). I put evolution chambers on here, so i dont have to jump all the way across the keyboard to check my upgrade progress.

* I changed the Melee upgrade on the evolution chamber to Q, so when i go 14/14, I can build a queen and start metabolic boost very very quickly, rather then sprinting across the keyboard.

* I changed my "Bind Camera position" keys to F1 through F4 to be able to get better access to them

* I changed the "Select idle worker" key to tilde (`) to make way for my movement of the F1 through F4 keys. This also makes that certain key very accessible.

* Changed the "Center screen on next base" key to Tab, allowing for very easy use

And thats about it for now. If you have any better suggestions or tweaks to my changes, go ahead and mention them :D
StarGalaxy
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany744 Posts
August 04 2012 11:24 GMT
#41
I use "tab" quite a bid so his setting wouldn't be for me.
the "W" Warpgate hotkey works just fine for me. It also shows the cooldown. Maybe that was different in the past?
I use Q for the warp in pylon.

Instead of the "0" hotkey which is too far away i use the one left from the "1".
Cj hero | Zest
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 04 2012 14:33 GMT
#42
On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
How do you feel the pinky is overused? While I use an older release of theCore, the only functions it has are attack, hold position, and a camera hotkey.

+ Show Spoiler +

Attack and hold position are probably the fastest keys in all of Starcraft 2 if you do hit-and-run micro. These 2 keys alone are how my avg EPM breaks 100 during intense games. Alternating between the two fastest keys with the same weakest finger on the hand is the worst possible layout. It's actually the primary reason I abandoned Core.


On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
I also think the WASD format was adopted to form an easy shape for people to understand what key relates with which direction, personally I find it uncomfortable as it cramps my somewhat large hands together.

+ Show Spoiler +

I do agree that WASD is inapropriate for large hands. Unfortunately I've never had to work with large hands, as my engineering work on this field was solely in Asia (operators all had small hands), so I can't give you specific advice other than to spread the keys out. Your greater span will allow you to hit far more keys.


On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
Are you accounting for the tilt of the keyboard?


+ Show Spoiler +
I'm assuming you mean altitude tilt and not azimuthal. Yes. Mini apple-like keyboards have a very slight tilt, which is far more optimal than having a thicker or more tilted keyboard. Ideally, you want both hands to be "grounded" on the pisiform bone to maximize both hand speed AND accuracy. If you accept that statement, then keyboards should have very little tilt to them. Apple's industrial designers are the best in the world, and their form factor agrees with this assesment.


On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
I don't see how putting build keys on the pinky fingers addresses the "overuse" of the pinky finger, in a far worse position as well.


+ Show Spoiler +
The pinky should have as little movement as possible and should have macro keys that aren't timing critical. The build keys are perfect for this function, especially since grid layout users are already used to this kind of placement. It's extremely rare for you to need to build and then advance build in a rapid keystroke sequence. Since the pinky (on a small hand) naturally falls somewhere between B and N, this minimizes stroke effort for both keys.



On August 04 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote:
how do you shift queue your attacks? just thinking about that brings pain to my index finger.

+ Show Spoiler +

I agree. This is the biggest flaw in the layout. Currently, I hold shift/attack with my thumb. If these minis didn't shrink the left arrow key, it would be far, far easier to perform, but it's definitely a pain and not so reliable. I used to also make the control button a shift key and just hold down both control & left arrow with my thumb to shift attack queue, but that led to muscle memory confusion on which shift key to press at which time, and having the shift button that far underneath my hand was a nightmare for control groups. I don't use the index finger for shift+attack queueing. That brings my hand into a suboptimal position for follow-up strokes.

If you have suggestions on this part, I'd love to hear, as I hate how I have to avoid shift+attack in intense situations.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 04 2012 17:41 GMT
#43
On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
I'm going to assume you mean "it should not be done because the index finger is significantly shorter than the middle finger".


Correct.

On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
TheCore uses a tilted hand position, coming in at a 80-ish degree angle instead of a perpendicular 90 degree angle


+ Show Spoiler +
I've spent a lifetime using keys at a 90 degree angle. Quickly hitting keys at some other angle significantly hinders my accuracy, especially with such low profile keys. Maybe with hulking mechanical keys this isn't as big an issue.

On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
...it does have your middle finger curl a bit more. I and many others find it comfortable, and it allows easy reach to the keys above the middle finger.


+ Show Spoiler +
The more curled middle finger caused severe joint paint in my middle finger after doing Core for 5 days. I too initially thought it would be comfortable, but it must transmit a stroke impulse differently to cause that much pain. Perhaps my middle finger is so much longer than my index that it has to be too curled, as I think I needed to be closer to 60 degrees for all fingers to home properly. (That may also be why hitting non-home keys was so difficult) I had my colleague and my brother try positioning their hands, and they had the same issues with an overly curled finger. However, both of their index fingers were also very short.


On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2012 14:42 yevoc wrote: The act of moving the index finger up a row from its home position also doesn't incur much stroke penalty, but moving the index finger down 2 rows (as it would in Core) yields a far more significant penalty.
I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify?


+ Show Spoiler +
With JIOP, your fingers are at the top of the keyboard, meaning you have to move your fingers down 2 rows to hit some keys. That movement is extremely slow and awkward. My layout has the same problem with the "," key, and it's quite difficult/tedious to burrow as a result.



On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
The index is a fantastic finger, agreed. But no matter how fast you are with it, you cannot match the speed and ease of using 2 fingers for 2 sequential tasks....While the index is great, alternation is faster and less straining. It's multitasking on the finger level.


+ Show Spoiler +
This hadn't occured to me, and I wholeheartedly agree. All of my engineering field work with the hand didn't involve optimizing for more than 1-2 speedy keystrokes, so it's no surprise that my layout has a dearth of trilling/alternation options.

This point and the shift+attack queueing are significant flaws in my layout that need addressing.


On August 04 2012 15:59 FoxyMayhem wrote:
EDIT: Since we're always looking to improve our setup, I ran your finger positioning (NJIL) through our testing process we used to determine our layouts. I was pleasantly surprised by how well it performed! Nice. Unfortunately, there are several major issues with the possitioning that make us unable to use it. If you are curious, I can list them.


I have (almost) no ego to bruise. I posted my layout in order to hear its weaknesses, so I would love to hear more about it. If this ends up refining the Core to be better than my existing layout, I would certainly switch back to it. To me this is all about being optimal, not being "right."
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
aviator116
Profile Joined November 2011
United States820 Posts
August 04 2012 18:07 GMT
#44
Is the Core really that good of a setup? I play Masters for P/T, and recently have been trying to improve my hotkeys and mechanics, since I've been using standard setup since I started.
Bogus ST_Life IMMVP
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
August 04 2012 18:32 GMT
#45
Let's try not to make this into a second topic for discussing theCore. Post on its thread if you want to talk about theCore.
Kaleidos
Profile Joined October 2010
Italy172 Posts
August 04 2012 18:43 GMT
#46
On August 05 2012 03:07 aviator116 wrote:
Is the Core really that good of a setup? I play Masters for P/T, and recently have been trying to improve my hotkeys and mechanics, since I've been using standard setup since I started.


I think people should make their own setup and adjust it to their personal needs rather than force themselves to use a premade one. There are dozens of hotkey setup threads already; just take what you think is good from each one of those and forge your own Best hotkey setup.
TheAngryZergling
Profile Joined January 2011
United States387 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 18:59:09
August 04 2012 18:55 GMT
#47
I've been using thecore as well. It undoubtedly improves macro after getting used to it and after a long time, allows for micro to improve as well. Punishes pressing the wrong key harshly in some situations but practice minimizes such mispresses.


On August 05 2012 03:32 Antylamon wrote:
Let's try not to make this into a second topic for discussing theCore. Post on its thread if you want to talk about theCore.


If the most knowledgeable man in starcraft says he would legitimately like to hear people's ideas on different hotkey setups, I'm going to honor his request.
Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 19:24:37
August 04 2012 19:21 GMT
#48
I wrote up the mother of all replies. I lost it. My wrists can't take any more typing. This sucks so bad.

EDIT: If anyone else wants to avoid this terrible situation, install https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/loljledaigphbcpfhfmgopdkppkifgno/related?hl=en-US Lazerus for chrome (one for firefox too).

Why is this not standard?

I'm going to go cry into the toilet bowl of self pity now.
Fossa
Profile Joined July 2011
United States67 Posts
August 04 2012 19:34 GMT
#49
My hotkey setup is quite simple and will work in hots.

I use grid.
I changed the location hotkeys to shift f2-f6.
I changed 890 to yhn.
It's just like typing on one side of the keyboard so it's really easy.
Fossa
Profile Joined July 2011
United States67 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 19:37:52
August 04 2012 19:37 GMT
#50
oops double post
dizzieX
Profile Joined November 2011
Spain5 Posts
August 04 2012 20:46 GMT
#51
I use grid but i use asdfg for the bottom row (so spells are easier to press) and zxcvb for the medium row. aditionally f1-f4 and tab are camera keys and space for tabbing. It feels really easy to macro as terran. A production cycle will go something like this 4qq (scvs) 5qqq space w space ww (marine tank medivac)
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
August 05 2012 00:51 GMT
#52
On August 05 2012 03:32 Antylamon wrote:
Let's try not to make this into a second topic for discussing theCore. Post on its thread if you want to talk about theCore.


Artosis asked for hotkey setups/ideas, so I posted mine. It happened to fly in the face of the Core, hence the discussion. I think FoxyMayhem's uber-reply-that-went-poof was more focused on how he tests layouts as well as the flaws in my particular layout.

@Foxy: Losing that post was more my loss than yours, and I definitely feel it. I hope you can manage to retype it in a few days.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 01:23:21
August 05 2012 01:18 GMT
#53
Yes, it was about efficiency models, testing, key reach penalties, and refining key series. Entirely relevant to the conversation.

@Yevoc: we could use VOIP. Save me a crapton of pain and time. Message me if you're interested.

Also, thanks for the kind words! <3
Asmodeusx
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
286 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 01:53:43
August 05 2012 01:44 GMT
#54
I unbound everything, decided what hotkeys will be the best and rebound it the way it makes sense. Anyone who comes from high level wow pvp knows how to deal with 50+ hotkeys, so SC2 is very simple when it comes to menaging the keyboard. If you have to reach past 6tgb then you're doing it wrong.

Also, people playing with right hand on the keyboard have another advantage.If you're not a pro yet, you should consider switching your hands like Athene who is actually not a "leftie" but he thought himself to use mouse with left hand and keyboard with right one.

Examples of my hotkeys + Show Spoiler +

[~]warpgates (i slide my finger through this key and tab for instant warpin in the set location under tab camera position)
[1] ctrl grp 1 (main army)
[2] ctrl grp 2 (caster type1, scouting unit)
[3] ctrl grp 3 (caster type2 or unit that may require pulling back (colossi/immortals)
[4] ctrl grp 4 (surgical strike units, phoenixes, anti drop stalkers, blink stalkers in army)
[5] ctrl grp 5 (observer)
[6] ctrl grp 6 (Mothership or additional warp prisms or additional observers)
[t] ctrl grp 7 (Nexi)
[g] ctrl grp 8 (Robo)
[v] ctrl grp 9 (Stargate)
[c] ctrl grp 0 (Forges & other buildings with upgrades)
F1-F5 + Tab camera position hotkeys
[Caps lock] idle worker

[q] Primary unit ability (build structure, FF, Feedback, recall, blink, graviton beam)
[w] Secondary unit ability (build advanced structure, guardian shield, vortex)
[e] hold position
[r] patrol
[a] attack
[s] stop
[d] return cargo
[f] tertiary unit ability (archon, hallucination - phoenix set to F so i can just double tap F for phoenix hallucination)
[b] cancel - much faster to reach than Esc

All buildings in the worker build menu's are set to QWEASDF

Ctrl+A rotates camera to the left
Ctrl+S rotates camera to the right
(usefull when targetting SCV's building structure/bunker or when blocking a choke with probe/zealot)

[z] base camera
[space] next subgroup (ctrl+space is previous subgroup)
Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm.
-IntEnZ-
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden50 Posts
August 05 2012 01:46 GMT
#55
Use tab and space for locations and f1,f2. Other than that pretty much standard hotkeys. Watched the video, great content as usual.
NewDawn
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada120 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 02:29:14
August 05 2012 02:28 GMT
#56
On August 03 2012 04:29 Milsberry wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 31 2012 00:21 Trasko wrote:
I've never actually tried custom hotkeys. I suppose it's pretty beneficial?


It's very very beneficial. I used standard hotkeys at first. Was stuck in gold for a little while lol. Made all custom hotkeys and I'm now high diamond facing masters here and there. Planning on adding even more hotkeys as well.

I could never even imagine going back to standard hotkeys.

I've essentially set up hotkeys where all of the main casted abilities are "Q" and "E". Warping in I just hit w and then shift and spam Q for zealots, E for sentries, R for stalkers, etc. I mostly use q,w,e,r,f,d for keybinds. 1-5 for ctrl groups and ive added 6 and 7 with the help of my mouse. Main thing I need to add now is camera location keys.

For building I use similar hotkeys. To build a gateway I grab a probe and hit q twice. To build a robo I hit e twice. Etc.


Okay let's be honest here. Changing your hotkeys isn't going to make you suddenly improve in skill. There is no way that making things easier to reach suddenly moves you from gold to masters MMR. While it makes you more efficient with regards to your mechanics, it does nothing to your game sense/decision making. I'm only saying this because I'm at the same spot you're at (High Diamond playing Masters here and there), and I basically use standard hotkeys, with a few tweaks here and there. I'm not saying custom hotkeys are wrong/bad, but it's personal preference really.

Anyways, to be relevant:

Screen positions (Shift) F1-F8 (I only use 1-5 though.)
Idle Workers on Space
Lift/Land on Capslock
Raise Supply Depot on F/R
Ghost Energy/Pre-Igniter on R
0 on `
Patrol on Q
Bunker on Y/U

+ Show Spoiler +
When I play Protoss:
Immortal on R
Probe on S

When I play Zerg:
Lair on R
Infestation Pit on F
Zerg Speed on B
이지은 | 송지은 | 정은지 | 홧팅 ~ !
fNacks
Profile Joined March 2010
United States39 Posts
August 05 2012 03:50 GMT
#57
Very interesting and informative video. Like he stated, most of the StarCraft II hotkeys are already optimal, especially compared to Brood War. But some of them do indeed need to be changed. I've never thought of changing the Guardian Shield hotkey, but that's probably because I've never really had a problem of hitting it by mistake. For me, being a Protoss player, I've changed Immortal and Mothership to 'R', and Patrol to 'Q', I've also moved the location hotkeys to F2 - F8, with F1 for idle workers, and I unbinded the spacebar (don't want to accidentally jump to last alert during battles), and all of the camera-shifting hotkeys. I don't want to accidentally hit a camera hotkey during a battle either, plus it's more Brood War-y.
"No worry, I use special tactics." - White-Ra
flyingteapot
Profile Joined August 2011
United States11 Posts
August 05 2012 06:41 GMT
#58
I also use TheCore but I have switched the camera position recall (Shift + Ctrl) and camera position set (Alt) hot-keys around because I found it a bit unwieldy to have to press Shift and Ctrl every time I wanted to recall a camera position
CaptainAmerica
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States89 Posts
August 05 2012 07:33 GMT
#59
Awesome vid, Artosis! You ever think of changing the space bar with control? I find that I use the control key far more than the space bar. I like having it as the larger key and right under my thumb. Then, I can slam (not really slam, but an emphatic punch) the side of my pinky down on the control key for any alerts.

Also, do you recommend two keyboards - one for gaming and one for typing? I've removed keys before and prefer gaming that way, but need those keys when I'm typing out of SC2.

GL HF
Give Credit Where It's Due
Avaroth
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Finland44 Posts
September 12 2012 09:44 GMT
#60
I have a small question for the hotkey experts out there. Is there an easy way to bind the ><-key found on EU keyboards? SC2 doesn't seem to recognise this key by default. The key is next to Z as you can see in this pic: Steelseries 6gv2 Nordic.

This key is quite well placed and I would love to bind something to this.
My garden is well. How is yours?
crystyle
Profile Joined March 2012
Poland8 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-12 20:25:40
September 12 2012 20:24 GMT
#61
I use modified grid which is far better imo than standard hotkeys. You don't need to remember things that much and everything is packed closer so u don't need to move hand across the board. Also I use additional mouse buttons (razer naga) to control groups 6-0.

my groups are
1 for scout
2 for 2nd tech/scout
3 for 1st tech
4 for nexuses
5 for special tactics
6-0 are my army control groups
f1-fn are for camera positions - nexuses

i modified grid so I have a-move on Q and units skills on ZXC, after that warpgates under TAB. I use lots of ALT for asignments also SHIFT and some CRTL. SPACEBAR goes for unit types switch under groups. I find this set up totally freaking awesome. Cheers.
Art never comes from happiness
HeyImFinn
Profile Joined September 2011
United States250 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-13 05:47:57
September 13 2012 05:43 GMT
#62
Global:
Camera hotkeys rebound to f2-f8

Terran:
Viking ground mode from D to G (because I put them in the same control group as my ravens and sometimes I mean to PDD when I don't have any ravens and end up landing all of my vikings...)
Air armor from P to A

Protoss:
Immortal from I to R
Cybernetics Core is also bound to U

Zerg:
Inject is also bound to Q (So I go 66Q 77Q 88V 99V 00V)
Infestor Cathedral from I to F

Otherwise, it's completely standard.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)STYLE START SBENU( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Discarder
Profile Joined July 2012
Philippines411 Posts
September 13 2012 06:00 GMT
#63
On July 31 2012 00:44 snexwang wrote:
Rebound cycle base camera to tilde.
Removed 6 and rebound to TAB (I use this for T3 units).
Rebound first four camera positions to 7,8,9,0 (next four on F5-F8).
Rebound 7,8,9,0 to F1-F4 (inject queens).
Rebound patrol to W.
Rebound select idle worker to space.
Removed left Windows, capslock, hyphen and equals keys.


cool ideas! I would copy this :D
You can take the lion out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the lion
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
September 13 2012 17:47 GMT
#64
Artosis, I know you are very busy, and I understand if you don't get a chance to help us out, but we would really appreciate it if you found some time to let us know what you think of TheCore.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878

I am personally spending anywhere from 2-6 hours a day right now (5-11 hours in the first month of development) working on this hotkey layout and believe that it will be the future of Sc2 pro gaming. Although FoxyMayhem (creator of Darkgrid) and I developed this layout, since the beta launched we have had incredibly generous help from numerous community members. This may be the biggest project to create the best custom layout possible to date.

Please give the project a look and let us know what you think; your insight would be invaluable.

Thank you.

Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Don.681
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines189 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-14 09:51:40
September 14 2012 09:46 GMT
#65
I use this setup:

My control groups are:

~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
TAB ________U
CAPS ________J
SHIFT _________M

Basically remapped control group 8, 9 and 0 to "UJM". Then, I remapped all standard keys right of "UJM" to left of "UJM".
Pretty much I have standard keys except now I don't have to reach to the right side of the keyboard to use them.

There was minimal adjustment required, basically I moved some keys like:
Patrol = Y
Move = Z
Build Immortal = R
etc, still trying make the keys phonetically match the action.
Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
September 14 2012 14:47 GMT
#66
I have my screen locations on 1-5 and my control groups at TAB, Q, A, S, D.
hundred thousand krouner
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