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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o2nUe.jpg)
Hello everyone and welcome to my first guide. I am a master league zerg player on the NA server and I have always been playing this style of ZvP. I expect some critical responses and negative impressions. I am just excited to show a completely opposite style other than the standard 3-base mass roach style that is also viable at the NA master level. There should be more than one way to play the game and this is how I play it.
Yes, I stay on 2 bases for a long time. Yes, I use hydralisks a lot.
Key strengths of this build:
- hydralisk timing is strong against all protoss units
- initial attack diminishes protoss sentry count and weakens later pushes
- allows the zerg to gain an upgrade advantage
- zerg becomes aggressive and protoss becomes defensive
Roach Hydralisk Synergy (This is a joke, but not really... haha)
+ Show Spoiler +- roaches are helplessly weak against forcefields, immortals, voidrays, and upgraded stalkers
- roaches are only good at dying
- hydralisks are good at dishing out lots of damage
- roaches do the dying while hydralisks do the damaging
TLDR Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +14 pool
15 hatch
14 2x lings
16 ovie
16 queen
21 queen
34 gas 1+2
32 queen
@100gas lair
- roachwarren + evo
- gas 3+4 shortly after
@100%lair
- hydra den
- roach speed
- +1 range
@100%hydraden
- hydra range
- attack with 6 hydras 6 roaches
- take third
OPENING: 14p15h
10/10 overlord
14/18 pool
15/18 hatch
14/18 2 pairs of zerglings
16/18 overlord
16/18 queen
21/28 queen
22/28 overlord
Threats:
+ Show Spoiler +scouting probe(s)- send a drone to attack the scouting probe as soon as you see it - prevent cannon rushes and pylon blocks - use your micro against his shift-move commands to damage the probe - this will make him place his pylon down earlier and delay his structures at home - you can potentially kill the probe - use your zerglings to take watch towers scout for probes and guard the protoss ramp pylon block at the natural- as soon as you see the pylon go down follow this alternative build order + Show Spoiler +15/18 overlord
15/18 2 pairs of zerglings
- use the zerglings to take out the pylon
17/18 hatch
17/26 queen
@100%queen inject larva and start 2nd queen (in your main)
@100%queen creep tumour and walk to natural
Overlord placement
+ Show Spoiler +- #1 send to the ramp to scout how chronoboost is used (forge, cyber, gateway?)
- #2 send to the edge of main base for an overseer scout later
- #3 send to the edge of the third base, preferably near natural gas geysers
- #4 send to the edge of main base near the fourth expansion
- the rest send to common proxy pylon locations
Ending the game:
+ Show Spoiler +the rare chance that your opponent went nexus > gateway > forge > cannon and did not pylon block you
- your zerglings will reach his ramp before the cannon is finished
- target the cannon being warped in
- target the artosis pylon at protoss ramp
- make additional zerglings only when you are sure the pylon will go down
EARLY GAME: drones and gas timings
34/36 ~5:15 gas 1+2
- queen
- overlord
@100 gas start lair
- roach warren at natural ramp
- evolution chamber at natural ramp
- creep tumour at natural ramp
- before evolution chamber finishes take gas 3+4
@100% evolution chamber
- +1 ranged attack
- drones to ~ 64 food
Threats:
+ Show Spoiler +zealot stalker poke
- scout this with overlord #1 and your zerglings
- 3 queens target zealot
- run the queen that is being targeted by the zealot
- zerglings target the stalker
chronoboosted zealot push
- scout this with overlord #1
- if there are two zealots and the gateway is still being chronoboosted
- make 1 spinecrawler behind your roach warren and evolution chamber wall
+1 zealot attack
- this attack will come late enough that your roach warren will be finished
- make around 4 roaches and defend with support from queens
Ending the game:
+ Show Spoiler +2-base speedling+roach attack
- if your opponent opened gateway expand
- if your opponent has a terrible wall off
- instead of a lair, save up around 200 gas for 8 roaches
- instead of an evolution chamber add a few more overlords
- make 8 roaches, start zergling speed, and constantly rally zerglings
- start a lair
MIDGAME: Reaching lair and +1 timing
@100% lair
- hydralisk den
- roach speed
- overlords to ~ 64/124
- overseer scout with overlord #2
- poop creep on expansions with overlord #3 and #4
@100% hydralisk den
- hydralisk range
- make 6 hydralisks
- make 6 roaches
- take third expansion
Threats:
+ Show Spoiler +early aggressive 6 gateway attack
- this will hit before your hydralisk den is finished
- make roaches with all your gas
- make 3 spinecrawlers instead of a hatchery
- make hydralisks as soon as you can
tech oriented all-in
- this includes blink stalkers, sentry immortals, mass gateways
- constantly make roaches hydralisks and zerglings based on your opponent's unit composition
- still try to take your third whenever you can
Attacking the Protoss: +1 range, roach speed, hydralisk range
+ Show Spoiler +goals in order of priority
- trade armies at least evenly
- snipe the forge (which should be researching +1 armour or +2 attack)
- target fire tech units with your hydralisks such as immortals and voidrays
- snipe the cybercore if the opponent went blink stalkers
- continuously replenish your army
- sneak drones in gradually
Ending the game:
+ Show Spoiler +protoss was too greedy and does not have sufficient defence
- attack, rally units, regroup, repeat, follow priorities listed above
TRANSITION: Protoss defends and is teching to tier 3
Macro: Key structures and upgrades
- zergling speed
- spire
- +1 carapace and second evolution chamber
- drones mining minerals at third
- spend excess minerals on zerglings and overlords
- gas 5+6
- marco hatchery at home or at 4th base
- +1 flyer attack
- +2 ranged attack and +2 carapace
- if protoss is on 2-base make 6-8 corruptors and max out on ling/roach/hydra
- if protoss is on 3-base make mutalisks and zerglings
Micro: Staying active with your army
- continue to watch overlords #3 and #4 for third base
- take watch towers
- try to catch the protoss army in a bad position and trade armies at least evenly
- morph a second overseer and take turns contaminating robo (this will delay 2-base collo all-in)
- spread creep like mad
Threats:
+ Show Spoiler +2-base collo push
- there may be 1 or 2 collo in the push before your spire is finished
- ideally you would have killed most of his sentries already
- be patient before you rush into his army on creep for a surround
- target collossus with hydralisks
- reinforce with roachling
2-base storm push
- research burrow and tunnelling claws
- delay the push by poking with roaches and burrowing them
- amass a large enough roach count to overrun the protoss army
Ending the game:
+ Show Spoiler +protoss failed 2-base push
- your opponent is poor and has no army to defend a third
- starve him or bust him with the help of air units
protoss setting up a third base
- send in mutalisks to find weak spots
- poke with ground army to find weak spots
- target probes with mutalisks
- target nexus and expansions with ground army
- do not force it and lose too much army or else a counter attack can kill you
LATEGAME: Hydralisk Corruptor Broodlord
Macro: Hive Tech
- infestation pit for hive (no infestors)
- expand aggressively so you have empty expansions ready and extra larva
- +3 ranged attack and +3 carapace
- crackling upgrade
- greater spire
- ultralisk cavern
- +1 melee
Micro: Recycling your maxed tier 2 army
- constantly send overlords to expansion locations to poop
- optional: research oviespeed and burrow to help delay expansions
you made up to 20 mutalisks so stay active with them
- do not be afraid to lose them
- replace them with corruptors and hydralisks
you made corruptors and maxed your ground army
- trade a few roaches for up to 12-14 corruptors
- continue to trade armies and replenish with broodlords and hydralisks
Introducing the Broodlord Hydralisk Corruptor composition:
+ Show Spoiler +Broodlords
- gives you the option to force engagements
- allows you to apply constant pressure
- split them appropriately and a-move
- target firing not required
Hydralisks
- provides maximum DPS at the most crucial moment when the protoss blinks under your broodlords
- keep hydralisks at a safe distance and let the broodlords apply pressure
- when the protoss blinks under your broodlords with stalkers, your 3/3 hydralisks will be ready to rip them apart at a safe distance where collossus cannot reach them
Corruptors
- target fire voidrays and motherships to push them back
- if the protoss is voidray-collossus heavy then use your broodlords to target the collo, corruptors and hydralisks to target air units
Threats:
+ Show Spoiler +Since you are constantly pressuring the protoss, you should be constantly adjusting your army composition based on your opponent.
- it is perfectly suitable to poke and pressure before your broodlords
- it is also suitable to poke and pressure with low numbers of broodlords
- do not overcommit
Continuously scout the main base to determine the level of tech you opponent is at.
- is there a dark shrine? is there a fleet beacon? is there a templar archives?
- defend harassment antics and establish expansions
Ending the game: Death push into mass counter attack chaos
+ Show Spoiler +once you have maxed out on a suitable ratio of broodlord corruptor hydraling
- use your ground army to secure expansions and deny harassment
- once everything is stable then proceed with your death push
you both traded armies and now you must re-max
- make mass zerglings and ultralisks, with some corruptors and/or hydralisks
- send them everywhere and destroy the protoss economy
- nydus worms are useful for sending lings into the main base
REPLAYS
+ Show Spoiler +
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The problem with 2 base Zerg is any good protoss Diamond and above with probe scouts will see you not taking a 3rd and play accordingly. The game has been out a long time now and if 2 base roach hydra was viable against 2 base toss then it would be standard. You can do almost any composition off of 3 fast bases if you don't gas them up.
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On July 20 2012 18:35 DarKcS wrote:
The problem with 2 base Zerg is any good protoss Diamond and above with probe scouts will see you not taking a 3rd and play accordingly. The game has been out a long time now and if 2 base roach hydra was viable against 2 base toss then it would be standard. You can do almost any composition off of 3 fast bases if you don't gas them up.
depends on the timing. If P scouts 2 base play the most he would do is extra cannons, which might not be a big threat to the roach hydra timing OP is trying to do.
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I just want to say I love your "Ending the Game" variations. A lot of guides have a set build order that when you run into an unknown situation for the first time it is very hard to think on your feet.
Exploiting mistakes made by your opponent is a good skill, but it is one that is hard to develop when following guides. This is even more important because people following guides to the tee tend to be lower level players, who will be against opponents who make a lot more mistakes than a GM level player.
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I'm very skeptical about using hydralisks even after the timing. Recent GSL games are a clear display of how Hydralisks are often an auto-lose or so bad they can make you lose any advantage you have. Watch Seed vs Symbol and DRG vs Naniwa. Roaches are mobile, have good HP and don't die instantly to Colossus. For Late game with Blord hydralisks are a waste of gas and don't do enough damage to Protoss units.
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(Mid/high master comment) Just want to say that I think your guide is very in depth, and very well thought out. It is also easy to read, and I love the "End the game now options if they do x, y or z."
I also would like to defend your guide:
Who ever can keep their third up will win usually.
2 base timings can work because of the options zerg can do: 2 base (as long as your macro accordingly)
Muta,
Infestor
Roach/Hydra,
Hydra Nydus
Ling Nydus,
Also,
Hydras can be great late game, if they have tanking units, BL, or Ultra. They not only defend BL from Voids, they can snipe Mother ship and carriers.
Just gotta make sure they dont get the vortex, or its GG.
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I really like your guide, as a Protoss I will be sure to keep an eye out for this strategy.
However, I don't think you give 2 base Colo enough credit. With the current metagame steering towards early robos, this means an early observer to see what your tech path, since I will more than likely know you are on 2 base (either zel/stalker poke or scout with a probe). With that being said, i can hit a strong colo timing after you attack me, and colo kinda melt hydras.
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On July 21 2012 03:13 NoMicroWin wrote:
I really like your guide, as a Protoss I will be sure to keep an eye out for this strategy.
However, I don't think you give 2 base Colo enough credit. With the current metagame steering towards early robos, this means an early observer to see what your tech path, since I will more than likely know you are on 2 base (either zel/stalker poke or scout with a probe). With that being said, i can hit a strong colo timing after you attack me, and colo kinda melt hydras.
Oh snap. I have played you three times in the past month lol.
You are correct. However, If we see the Obs blurr across our base, then we know you are either going to go for a robo timing attack
or Robo expand.
Allowing us to drone 1-2 more cycles before making units.
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Tefel just used this strategy in MLG Arena. :D
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On July 21 2012 07:21 Varanice wrote:
Tefel just used this strategy in MLG Arena. :D
just cuz tefel made hydras doesn't mean he used this strategy. It wasn't even close sorry :/
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On July 21 2012 07:26 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:21 Varanice wrote:
Tefel just used this strategy in MLG Arena. :D just cuz tefel made hydras doesn't mean he used this strategy. It wasn't even close sorry :/
He went 2 base hydra, into a very very late third base.(Which is more or less what this is.) I thought it was worth pointing out because it just had happened and was relevent to the thread.
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On July 21 2012 02:59 BuiBui wrote:
(Mid/high master comment) Just want to say that I think your guide is very in depth, and very well thought out. It is also easy to read, and I love the "End the game now options if they do x, y or z."
I also would like to defend your guide:
Who ever can keep their third up will win usually.
2 base timings can work because of the options zerg can do: 2 base (as long as your macro accordingly)
Muta,
Infestor
Roach/Hydra,
Hydra Nydus
Ling Nydus,
Also,
Hydras can be great late game, if they have tanking units, BL, or Ultra. They not only defend BL from Voids, they can snipe Mother ship and carriers.
Just gotta make sure they dont get the vortex, or its GG.
I'd also add speedroach queen nydus. You take your gases when after you deny his probe scout, and get 2-3 gas and get Nydus and roach speed as soon as your lair hits. Make as many roaches as your gas bank allows and if you are floating 200+ minerals make queens to throw in there.
Transition to Hydra's to follow up if need be. If you can nydus in his main do it, but speed roach+queen can still work if you nydus at the front using a ling for vision.
I've had a 70% win rate using this build at a mid master level, even off one base in response to a 3 pylon block. Always takes them off guard. If you one base you can hit at under 7 minutes, if you drone up a little on two base it'll be a little later. Double stargate and some immortal openings can beat it, but with proper micro you can isolate the immortals.
Double stargate can be a problem, but speedroach nydus absolutely crushes gateway compositions or heavy macro openings. Just sneak an overlord in opportune areas and deny scouting with 2-4 lings and you can throttle an unsuspecting Protoss.
I still haven't experimented with pure ling nydus, but I find cannons and sentrys or even enough zealots can destroy it.
Best maps to speedroach nydus on: Entombed Valley, Taldarim, Daybreak and Condemned Ridge. Can work on Shakuras and Antiga as well, but much harder to nydus unscouted because of the small size of main. Very rarely will it work on Ohana but I've pulled it off.
I won't post a build order but it depends on what your opponent is doing and you really don't want him to see you taking gases. I've pissed off a lot of Protoss players with this build.. I have a lot of fun with it 
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Is anyone watching the replays? Protoss players are constantly losing because they make bad decisions against the hydralisks, pushing out with 6 gates, low upgrade, bad macro, bad gas timings, both players seem to be about platinum/diamond level, not masters.
I feel that the only way for these timings to work is if the protoss stuffs up somewhere, in every replay, it isn't that the hydralisks end up overwhelming, its the fact that protoss has no clue on what to do against this push. They focus down the roaches on purpose, no extra cannons placed when 3rd base isn't spotted, very sloppy play in general. Of course this doesn't mean that the strategy is bullock necessarily, I feel it has great potential on maps like Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom where there isn't a ramp to the natural, with players playing with less and less colossi, this build could punish weird gateway 3rd base openings, that is, if not scouted.
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On July 21 2012 10:43 Varanice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:26 Moosegills wrote:On July 21 2012 07:21 Varanice wrote:
Tefel just used this strategy in MLG Arena. :D just cuz tefel made hydras doesn't mean he used this strategy. It wasn't even close sorry :/ He went 2 base hydra, into a very very late third base.(Which is more or less what this is.) I thought it was worth pointing out because it just had happened and was relevent to the thread.
Again using hydra ling defensively while rushing hive =/= a 2 base roach hydra attack. I'm sorry the similarities are literally only the hydras.
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On July 21 2012 13:05 PhilipScrewdriver wrote:
Is anyone watching the replays? Protoss players are constantly losing because they make bad decisions against the hydralisks, pushing out with 6 gates, low upgrade, bad macro, bad gas timings, both players seem to be about platinum/diamond level, not masters.
I feel that the only way for these timings to work is if the protoss stuffs up somewhere, in every replay, it isn't that the hydralisks end up overwhelming, its the fact that protoss has no clue on what to do against this push. They focus down the roaches on purpose, no extra cannons placed when 3rd base isn't spotted, very sloppy play in general. Of course this doesn't mean that the strategy is bullock necessarily, I feel it has great potential on maps like Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom where there isn't a ramp to the natural, with players playing with less and less colossi, this build could punish weird gateway 3rd base openings, that is, if not scouted.
Well... I don't totally disagree, its true that my opponents don't react very well. I think it goes with the common assumption that hydralisks are bad, and one or two collossus makes them feel invincible against hydras, which isn't true. They are actually all master league protoss players, even though their play is not exceptional... they are good enough to be masters at least.
Thanks for watching the replays!
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^ They are low masters, and the difference between low masters and high masters in MMR is comparable to low masters to and gold (800 mmr). Good enough to be masters is a huge margin, and everyone, including high masters, make mistakes, but it'd be more appropriate to show replays where the toss doesn't make any blunders, so you can show how viable it is, unless you want to pass the build off as a lower level strategy.
I don't understand why you are getting roaches or upgrades... it just delays what this build is, a hydra timing semi all-in.
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^ If I'm going to use hydralisks... why don't I spend ALL my gas on hydralisks and the rest on zerglings? It is because hydralisks and zerglings are both light units. They counter and are countered by the same units. Roaches are armoured and this makes a huge difference. I can change the ratio of light/armoured units depending on my opponent's army composition.
Getting the roaches doesn't delay the hydralisks. I cannot get the hydralisk den any earlier either way. It only lowers the number of hydralisks... which isn't a big deal because the protoss doesn't have that many units at that timing anyways.
You can be skeptical and discredit me and my opponents with your MMR statistics all you like. The fact is... we are in masters, regardless of whether we are in low, mid, or high masters. I wanted to do this guide while I was in diamond but I felt it wouldn't give my guide enough credit. I guess master level isn't good enough either.
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Problem being that just being master league doesn't actually mean that much. One of the things diamond / low masters are worst at is dealing with non standard scenarios, because often theyr just following a build that counters the current metagame, many blind protoss 2 base all ins are a good example.
Sounds to me pretty likely your winning by taking your opponents outside their comfort zone, considering 2 base plays are all but utterly dead atm. I get a similar effect when i play very quick 2 base spire vs terran, the build is just actually bad but people have forgotten how to deal with it.
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I watched 2 replays. Whay if the enemy goes for an early HT? Wont storm kill the hydras? And they are slow so they will be under the storm for a while I think?
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On July 21 2012 20:12 cywinr wrote:
^ If I'm going to use hydralisks... why don't I spend ALL my gas on hydralisks and the rest on zerglings? It is because hydralisks and zerglings are both light units. They counter and are countered by the same units. Roaches are armoured and this makes a huge difference. I can change the ratio of light/armoured units depending on my opponent's army composition.
This makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly are the units a protoss has that have bonus damage vs. light? Actually, the only units which do have bonus damage have that bonus vs. armored targets. It's like the opposite.
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On July 21 2012 20:12 cywinr wrote:
^ If I'm going to use hydralisks... why don't I spend ALL my gas on hydralisks and the rest on zerglings? It is because hydralisks and zerglings are both light units. They counter and are countered by the same units. Roaches are armoured and this makes a huge difference. I can change the ratio of light/armoured units depending on my opponent's army composition.
Getting the roaches doesn't delay the hydralisks. I cannot get the hydralisk den any earlier either way. It only lowers the number of hydralisks... which isn't a big deal because the protoss doesn't have that many units at that timing anyways.
You can be skeptical and discredit me and my opponents with your MMR statistics all you like. The fact is... we are in masters, regardless of whether we are in low, mid, or high masters. I wanted to do this guide while I was in diamond but I felt it wouldn't give my guide enough credit. I guess master level isn't good enough either.
Spoiler alert, except for Phoenixes, ALL Protoss units either do uniform damage or deal bonus to either biological (Archons) or Armored units. But removing Armored units from the composition, you don't take any bonus damage except from Archons. So the bonus damage bit is nothing short of "wtf are you smoking?!" You're thinking of Terran, which has Ghosts and Hellions.
However, Lings and Hydras ARE both countered by Colossi; not because they're Light armor-type units, but because they're low HP units. By the same token, they are both countered by HT Storms.
I don't see an attack with 6 Roaches and 6 Hydras so late to be good, even if you reinforce. And with current maps getting bigger and bigger, Hydras seem less appealing until HotS.
Although having Hydra/Ling would seem like a more efficient spending of resources, I feel that Roach/Hydra is significantly more powerful simply because the Protoss SHOULD have a decent sim city which will minimize the effectiveness of the Lings (especially with good FFs). The initial attack should be Roach/Hydra. If it proves to be successful, the reinforcements should be Ling/Hydra (since Lings are significantly better once the wall is down and FFs are low).
And using the "we are in master's" argument is like the old "we are in platinum" or "we are in diamond" argument. It didn't really mean much because too many of the players that got on were god awful (which is why new leagues were added. And many low master's players use the trashiest builds or have terrible mechanics. It only gets worse when the replays you post show your opponents losing for reasons that don't include the merits of your build and are using a very outdated build that has proven to be less than efficient.
However, this criticism and skepticism is the reason why pros have more or less stopped discussing anything about the game on public forums. There are too many people who don't know what they're talking about throwing trash out like it's a common-knowledge law of the universe. The best you can do is simply tell people to try the build and come back AFTER trying the build with their criticisms, instead of trying to argue with people and throw out rank and reputation into the fray (unless you're well-known on the forums or are a professional; even then not 100% that you'll receive praise).
I've used a similar enough build in the past. It's a reasonably powerful push but seriously low-eco by today's standards. The smaller the map, the better. That should be kept in mind since Hydras are so slow.
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This kind of build was really good on Metalopolis, especially close air spawns (at least against me), but trying on Daybreak (as the picture suggest) seems suicidal. If I see my opponent not taking a third base, then I start spamming cannons like crazy. In this case you were taking a third behind some pressure, but you invest quite a bit in the pressure, so you have to do some damage.
I watched the replay of the FFE stargate robo game. Your push, the one pictured, gets crushed leaving you with 1000 more resources lost more than your opponent. And your opponent doesn't even micro that well, and his Robo Bay is late. After the hold he moves out with 2 Colossus, 2 Immortals. 10 Stalker, 3 Zealots, 2 Phoenixes and 2 Sentries and has the worse engagement I've seen in a long time, losing badly to 36 Lings, 8 Hydras and 10 Roaches. Just by looking at those numbers, you'd think the Protoss player would roll you. After that battle, you just crushed him.
However, the important moment is the initial attack which he easily hold, showing the problems with opening with this build.
On July 21 2012 19:59 Belial88 wrote:
^ They are low masters, and the difference between low masters and high masters in MMR is comparable to low masters to and gold (800 mmr). Good enough to be masters is a huge margin, and everyone, including high masters, make mistakes, but it'd be more appropriate to show replays where the toss doesn't make any blunders, so you can show how viable it is, unless you want to pass the build off as a lower level strategy.
I don't understand why you are getting roaches or upgrades... it just delays what this build is, a hydra timing semi all-in.
I'm not really sure about the difference between high and low masters being that great. Last season there was a time when I was the 8th ranked player in division and was playing against #1-8 masters and GM's. This season I've struggled a lot and am playing low masters thru mid masters mostly. I have noticed my play has been worse, and my opponents aren't as good as last season, but it doesn't seem like totally different leagues at all.
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On July 21 2012 21:32 moQbara wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly are the units a protoss has that have bonus damage vs. light? Actually, the only units which do have bonus damage have that bonus vs. armored targets. It's like the opposite.
Just because they don't do bonus light damage doesn't mean they don't counter light units. Zealots, Collo, HTs, and archons all counter both zerglings and hydralisks. If your opponent masses those, you cannot change your army composition.
If the protoss makes bonus vs armour units like stalkers immortals voids then you make hydras. If he makes zealots HTs or archons you make roaches.
On July 21 2012 23:54 RyLai wrote:
And using the "we are in master's" argument is like the old "we are in platinum" or "we are in diamond" argument. It didn't really mean much because too many of the players that got on were god awful (which is why new leagues were added. And many low master's players use the trashiest builds or have terrible mechanics. It only gets worse when the replays you post show your opponents losing for reasons that don't include the merits of your build and are using a very outdated build that has proven to be less than efficient.
However, this criticism and skepticism is the reason why pros have more or less stopped discussing anything about the game on public forums. There are too many people who don't know what they're talking about throwing trash out like it's a common-knowledge law of the universe. The best you can do is simply tell people to try the build and come back AFTER trying the build with their criticisms, instead of trying to argue with people and throw out rank and reputation into the fray (unless you're well-known on the forums or are a professional; even then not 100% that you'll receive praise).
I see your point. At least I can say it is a viable strategy up to low-mid masters? That's good enough for me. I'll try to get better replays.
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I don't know what to say about this other than - I think you are fighting Protoss players that have poor/inefficient build orders, and winning because they kind of make stuff on gateways and don't really have any high amount of specialty units or AoE units. I haven't died to a 2-base Zerg attack in months upon months, and the basic reason is just that my unit composition is more efficient (when on equal economy), I have faster reinforcements than you do since you have to cross the entire map, and I can scout basically everything Zerg is doing on 2 bases. I also think that a majority of people have pretty mediocre understanding of PvZ, so somebody that really understands the matchup wouldn't really be afraid of playing against this build.
So, without just running my mouth and bashing your idea, I'd love to play against you for a few games to see how this actually feels. And I won't do stupid shit like cut corners since I know what you are doing. If you are interested, add me: Sidewinder.635. I'll have all day on Sunday to play.
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Mid/low master protoss EU.
I going to be honest in my response here. I think hydra timings can be good in some situations but this build is not one of these situations. You are relying too much on your opponent screwing up here in order to succed. If your attack doesn't do significant damage, you will be behind. And protoss will be able to scout that you are up to something fishy because you can't deny him from seeing no third base. This will cause him to make more units/cannons than he would do otherwise so he really shouldn't much damage from the push.
This build is just middle of the road, trying to do all things at once. Your eco will be worse than standard 3 base no gas builds. Your attack is also weak with only 12 units at a late timing. And you invest in hydra den, hydra range, roach speed AND +1 attack. Upgrades is good if you have alot of units but with this build you will not have that.
If you want to do a strong timing, you should cut more workers and maybe some tech. If you aim for the late game take an early third base. TBH I don't see why you aren't just taking a third base with this build. By taking a third it makes it not 100% obvious that you are getting agressive. You are hitting late enough that the third will have paid off, ESPICIALLY since you are building so many drowns anyway. And your gases are not too much later than a normal 3 hatch build is. Your build doesn't make alot of sense, However with some tweaks you can make this sooo much better : )
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Can someone answer my post about storm?
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^ Storm actually does very well against this attack. However, since your gas is spent on templars you will have less units counter the roaches. In response to templar tech, I would research burrow and tunneling claws and build more roaches. It doesn't happen often because of the robo-oriented metagame.
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EPT
