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On July 21 2012 20:12 cywinr wrote:
^ If I'm going to use hydralisks... why don't I spend ALL my gas on hydralisks and the rest on zerglings? It is because hydralisks and zerglings are both light units. They counter and are countered by the same units. Roaches are armoured and this makes a huge difference. I can change the ratio of light/armoured units depending on my opponent's army composition.
Getting the roaches doesn't delay the hydralisks. I cannot get the hydralisk den any earlier either way. It only lowers the number of hydralisks... which isn't a big deal because the protoss doesn't have that many units at that timing anyways.
You can be skeptical and discredit me and my opponents with your MMR statistics all you like. The fact is... we are in masters, regardless of whether we are in low, mid, or high masters. I wanted to do this guide while I was in diamond but I felt it wouldn't give my guide enough credit. I guess master level isn't good enough either.
Spoiler alert, except for Phoenixes, ALL Protoss units either do uniform damage or deal bonus to either biological (Archons) or Armored units. But removing Armored units from the composition, you don't take any bonus damage except from Archons. So the bonus damage bit is nothing short of "wtf are you smoking?!" You're thinking of Terran, which has Ghosts and Hellions.
However, Lings and Hydras ARE both countered by Colossi; not because they're Light armor-type units, but because they're low HP units. By the same token, they are both countered by HT Storms.
I don't see an attack with 6 Roaches and 6 Hydras so late to be good, even if you reinforce. And with current maps getting bigger and bigger, Hydras seem less appealing until HotS.
Although having Hydra/Ling would seem like a more efficient spending of resources, I feel that Roach/Hydra is significantly more powerful simply because the Protoss SHOULD have a decent sim city which will minimize the effectiveness of the Lings (especially with good FFs). The initial attack should be Roach/Hydra. If it proves to be successful, the reinforcements should be Ling/Hydra (since Lings are significantly better once the wall is down and FFs are low).
And using the "we are in master's" argument is like the old "we are in platinum" or "we are in diamond" argument. It didn't really mean much because too many of the players that got on were god awful (which is why new leagues were added. And many low master's players use the trashiest builds or have terrible mechanics. It only gets worse when the replays you post show your opponents losing for reasons that don't include the merits of your build and are using a very outdated build that has proven to be less than efficient.
However, this criticism and skepticism is the reason why pros have more or less stopped discussing anything about the game on public forums. There are too many people who don't know what they're talking about throwing trash out like it's a common-knowledge law of the universe. The best you can do is simply tell people to try the build and come back AFTER trying the build with their criticisms, instead of trying to argue with people and throw out rank and reputation into the fray (unless you're well-known on the forums or are a professional; even then not 100% that you'll receive praise).
I've used a similar enough build in the past. It's a reasonably powerful push but seriously low-eco by today's standards. The smaller the map, the better. That should be kept in mind since Hydras are so slow.
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This kind of build was really good on Metalopolis, especially close air spawns (at least against me), but trying on Daybreak (as the picture suggest) seems suicidal. If I see my opponent not taking a third base, then I start spamming cannons like crazy. In this case you were taking a third behind some pressure, but you invest quite a bit in the pressure, so you have to do some damage.
I watched the replay of the FFE stargate robo game. Your push, the one pictured, gets crushed leaving you with 1000 more resources lost more than your opponent. And your opponent doesn't even micro that well, and his Robo Bay is late. After the hold he moves out with 2 Colossus, 2 Immortals. 10 Stalker, 3 Zealots, 2 Phoenixes and 2 Sentries and has the worse engagement I've seen in a long time, losing badly to 36 Lings, 8 Hydras and 10 Roaches. Just by looking at those numbers, you'd think the Protoss player would roll you. After that battle, you just crushed him.
However, the important moment is the initial attack which he easily hold, showing the problems with opening with this build.
On July 21 2012 19:59 Belial88 wrote:
^ They are low masters, and the difference between low masters and high masters in MMR is comparable to low masters to and gold (800 mmr). Good enough to be masters is a huge margin, and everyone, including high masters, make mistakes, but it'd be more appropriate to show replays where the toss doesn't make any blunders, so you can show how viable it is, unless you want to pass the build off as a lower level strategy.
I don't understand why you are getting roaches or upgrades... it just delays what this build is, a hydra timing semi all-in.
I'm not really sure about the difference between high and low masters being that great. Last season there was a time when I was the 8th ranked player in division and was playing against #1-8 masters and GM's. This season I've struggled a lot and am playing low masters thru mid masters mostly. I have noticed my play has been worse, and my opponents aren't as good as last season, but it doesn't seem like totally different leagues at all.
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On July 21 2012 21:32 moQbara wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly are the units a protoss has that have bonus damage vs. light? Actually, the only units which do have bonus damage have that bonus vs. armored targets. It's like the opposite.
Just because they don't do bonus light damage doesn't mean they don't counter light units. Zealots, Collo, HTs, and archons all counter both zerglings and hydralisks. If your opponent masses those, you cannot change your army composition.
If the protoss makes bonus vs armour units like stalkers immortals voids then you make hydras. If he makes zealots HTs or archons you make roaches.
On July 21 2012 23:54 RyLai wrote:
And using the "we are in master's" argument is like the old "we are in platinum" or "we are in diamond" argument. It didn't really mean much because too many of the players that got on were god awful (which is why new leagues were added. And many low master's players use the trashiest builds or have terrible mechanics. It only gets worse when the replays you post show your opponents losing for reasons that don't include the merits of your build and are using a very outdated build that has proven to be less than efficient.
However, this criticism and skepticism is the reason why pros have more or less stopped discussing anything about the game on public forums. There are too many people who don't know what they're talking about throwing trash out like it's a common-knowledge law of the universe. The best you can do is simply tell people to try the build and come back AFTER trying the build with their criticisms, instead of trying to argue with people and throw out rank and reputation into the fray (unless you're well-known on the forums or are a professional; even then not 100% that you'll receive praise).
I see your point. At least I can say it is a viable strategy up to low-mid masters? That's good enough for me. I'll try to get better replays.
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I don't know what to say about this other than - I think you are fighting Protoss players that have poor/inefficient build orders, and winning because they kind of make stuff on gateways and don't really have any high amount of specialty units or AoE units. I haven't died to a 2-base Zerg attack in months upon months, and the basic reason is just that my unit composition is more efficient (when on equal economy), I have faster reinforcements than you do since you have to cross the entire map, and I can scout basically everything Zerg is doing on 2 bases. I also think that a majority of people have pretty mediocre understanding of PvZ, so somebody that really understands the matchup wouldn't really be afraid of playing against this build.
So, without just running my mouth and bashing your idea, I'd love to play against you for a few games to see how this actually feels. And I won't do stupid shit like cut corners since I know what you are doing. If you are interested, add me: Sidewinder.635. I'll have all day on Sunday to play.
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Mid/low master protoss EU.
I going to be honest in my response here. I think hydra timings can be good in some situations but this build is not one of these situations. You are relying too much on your opponent screwing up here in order to succed. If your attack doesn't do significant damage, you will be behind. And protoss will be able to scout that you are up to something fishy because you can't deny him from seeing no third base. This will cause him to make more units/cannons than he would do otherwise so he really shouldn't much damage from the push.
This build is just middle of the road, trying to do all things at once. Your eco will be worse than standard 3 base no gas builds. Your attack is also weak with only 12 units at a late timing. And you invest in hydra den, hydra range, roach speed AND +1 attack. Upgrades is good if you have alot of units but with this build you will not have that.
If you want to do a strong timing, you should cut more workers and maybe some tech. If you aim for the late game take an early third base. TBH I don't see why you aren't just taking a third base with this build. By taking a third it makes it not 100% obvious that you are getting agressive. You are hitting late enough that the third will have paid off, ESPICIALLY since you are building so many drowns anyway. And your gases are not too much later than a normal 3 hatch build is. Your build doesn't make alot of sense, However with some tweaks you can make this sooo much better : )
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Can someone answer my post about storm?
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^ Storm actually does very well against this attack. However, since your gas is spent on templars you will have less units counter the roaches. In response to templar tech, I would research burrow and tunneling claws and build more roaches. It doesn't happen often because of the robo-oriented metagame.
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EPT
