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On October 26 2012 02:46 Average Joe wrote:
I apologize if this has already been answered (I am at work and have already read the first 10 pages)but I am having difficulty shift building with Toss. I am using the small righty no mouse layout. I build my first building then hold shift and press "enter" to select the next building but then I get the dialog box. I see people who have said that they can chain build so obviously I am doing something wrong. Thanks in advance.
By "dialog box" do you mean the chat box? Chat should be on left arrow for small right-handed layouts. Do you have the latest version?
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On October 26 2012 03:39 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:46 Average Joe wrote:
I apologize if this has already been answered (I am at work and have already read the first 10 pages)but I am having difficulty shift building with Toss. I am using the small righty no mouse layout. I build my first building then hold shift and press "enter" to select the next building but then I get the dialog box. I see people who have said that they can chain build so obviously I am doing something wrong. Thanks in advance. By "dialog box" do you mean the chat box? Chat should be on left arrow for small right-handed layouts. Do you have the latest version?
I am not sure if I am using the latest version. I am using the one from the link at the beginning of the post. Is there another site I should be downloading it from? And as for dialog box, I mean the chat box where you can talk to everyone in the actual game, not the party chat box. Just to clarify, I am holding both the Shift key the "enter" key when the dialog/chat box pops up.
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On October 26 2012 05:16 Average Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:39 JDub wrote:On October 26 2012 02:46 Average Joe wrote:
I apologize if this has already been answered (I am at work and have already read the first 10 pages)but I am having difficulty shift building with Toss. I am using the small righty no mouse layout. I build my first building then hold shift and press "enter" to select the next building but then I get the dialog box. I see people who have said that they can chain build so obviously I am doing something wrong. Thanks in advance. By "dialog box" do you mean the chat box? Chat should be on left arrow for small right-handed layouts. Do you have the latest version? I am not sure if I am using the latest version. I am using the one from the link at the beginning of the post. Is there another site I should be downloading it from? And as for dialog box, I mean the chat box where you can talk to everyone in the actual game, not the party chat box. Just to clarify, I am holding both the Shift key the "enter" key when the dialog/chat box pops up.
All of the chat commands should be rebound to left arrow. ChatAll by default is Shift+Enter, so this should be Shift+Left now.
Try using this one instead: https://raw.github.com/jonnyhweiss/TheCoreConverter/master/TheCore PRS 0.5.SC2Hotkeys
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Thanks a lot! Also, to the creators.
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On October 25 2012 23:24 JaKaTaK wrote:
kk, so the poll now shows 2 semi-pro/pro players. I know that iSanddbox is 1 of them. Who is the other one??
I actually wasn't one of them...just added my vote now.
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On October 26 2012 07:25 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 23:24 JaKaTaK wrote:
kk, so the poll now shows 2 semi-pro/pro players. I know that iSanddbox is 1 of them. Who is the other one?? I actually wasn't one of them...just added my vote now.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that there are multiple pros who are using TheCore.
I heard somewhere that Sasquatch uses TheCore, so he might be one of the votes.
Either that or the people who cast those votes were liers. :/
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hmmm
If you are a master's grandmasters or pro/semi-pro player and you are using TheCore please comment with your battle.net profile page so that we can confirm it!!!!
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It's not like you can do anything about it. You can't edit the results of a poll.
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On October 26 2012 08:46 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 07:25 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:On October 25 2012 23:24 JaKaTaK wrote:
kk, so the poll now shows 2 semi-pro/pro players. I know that iSanddbox is 1 of them. Who is the other one?? I actually wasn't one of them...just added my vote now. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that there are multiple pros who are using TheCore. I heard somewhere that Sasquatch uses TheCore, so he might be one of the votes. Either that or the people who cast those votes were liers. :/
I've never heard Sasquatch mention it while playing together. It seems pretty unlikely.
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I have question for the creator of Core layout. I am just getting back to SC2 after a few seasons off. I was ranked top 8 masters and used to playing at a fairly high level. What I had done was use a grid setup with a Razer Marauder because I just love the feel of the Marauder personally. I turned my spacebar into an alt key and using the Grid layout, I would use control A for example to create control group 6 and then if I wanted to select it I would simply press spacebar and hit A, or Alt-A.
Numbers 1-5 which is what I would us 90% of the time, i would use normally. I bound my mouse two side buttons to control and shift, and use those to create and modify control groups without having to use control/shift on keyboard.
I was reading over your core layout and I am a bit confused about it. I understand that you claim this is the best optimal layout to use, and that it is hard to get used to but once you are used to it, it is supposed to be better.
Could you explain what makes this layout so much more advantageous and why I should take the time to relearn a new system? The control groups seemed to be laid out with no rhyme or reason, and they are in wierd spots, including the right side of the keyboard, which is very strange to me. Nothing about it feels comfortable, for obvious reasons being that I am not used to it. But still, could you explain why you did what you did with this layout, and why it is better, and why I should take the time to learn it? I am very open minded and look forward to hearing from you about this matter. Thanks
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deekox was kind enough to make me an image of my customized version of thecore. check it out! :D
i.imgur.com/Hhytk.png
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@Lancerx
"you claim this is the best optimal layout"
I think this is a bit of an overstatement. At most I would say that we think its the best for now, but we're always finding ways to make it better. But we do think it it worth it. With that out of the way, "Why TheCore?"
1. It takes approximately 4-5 times longer to hit a key that is one away from the home keys than a home key.
2. Shift is the most pressed key in an average game of high level Sc2. (masters+) This was based on heat charts sent to us by players. It was consistently the "hottest" key by far.
This is where we started. We tested a variety of home key positions and rated the keys around them using the following criteria:
Reach
Knuckle Separation
Wrist Rotation
Wrist Slide
Secondary Finger Displacement
Curl beyond vertical press
Full extension before press
Tilted press
Thumb Cramp
Double Key strike.
Most of these are self explanatory, and I will be making a video series on the development of TheCore asap. But i have a lot of other things on my plate right now, so i appreciate your patience.
Based on this, we found that the "offset" of the standard keyboard (not laid out like the num pad) was a big part of making keys difficult to press around the standard home key position. This is why TheCore favors a tilt. Also, the pinky is significantly shorter than the other fingers. This is why we didn't go with an ASDF or JKL; home key position.
Having shift as one of the home keys was absolutely necessary given that shift is the most pressed key in the game. And after trying many combinations, it was clear that having the thumb on shift was the optimal home key position, from there we have JIOP and WERG (for left and right side).
Now that we have our home position set. The next thing to consider is what to put on which keys.
Some things to note about the human hand.
The thumb and pinky are the most independent, strongest fingers in the human hand. Out of your non-thumb fingers, the pinky is the strongest, and has the most potential for dexterity. The reason many players feel that this is not true, is because the pinky is often the least trained, least exercised of the 5 fingers; it is important to remember that the pinky has the greatest potential for dexterity. It will take time and training to unlock this.
Sc2 commands are broken up into 3 main groups. Control groups, abilities, and cameras. The main 2 of these 3 are Control groups and abilites. To optimize combinations, we want to separate CGs and Abls to different fingers. Abilities were given to the pinky and ring, the CGs were given to the index and middle. This is so that players can easily tap between 2 macro control groups very quickly (or 4 if you like to use 4). Cameras for bases are layered so that you can get to them as quickly as possible for drop response and injects. This is so much faster than using the F keys Free Cams will most often be followed by control groups, warp in, chronoboost, set rally point. So they are placed on the opposing side with the Ability keys.
There are a ton of other things, I'll get to them as soon as possible in video form. But I hope that answers your specific question well enough for now.
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On October 27 2012 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
1. It takes approximately 4-5 times longer to hit a home key than it does to hit a key that is one away from home.
Uhm...?
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On October 27 2012 04:23 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
1. It takes approximately 4-5 times longer to hit a home key than it does to hit a key that is one away from home. Uhm...?
I think he just switched around which was which. 4-5 times longer to hit a key one away from home than a home key.
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On October 27 2012 04:23 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:23 Antylamon wrote:On October 27 2012 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
1. It takes approximately 4-5 times longer to hit a home key than it does to hit a key that is one away from home. Uhm...? I think he just switched around which was which. 4-5 times longer to hit a key one away from home than a home key.
Yeah, I know, I was pointing out that he made a typo.
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Ahhhh... I can't type. I fix I fix
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On October 27 2012 04:25 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:23 JDub wrote:On October 27 2012 04:23 Antylamon wrote:On October 27 2012 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
1. It takes approximately 4-5 times longer to hit a home key than it does to hit a key that is one away from home. Uhm...? I think he just switched around which was which. 4-5 times longer to hit a key one away from home than a home key. Yeah, I know, I was pointing out that he made a typo.
Yeah, I know, I was just explicitly saying what he meant.
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I would like to see an update for HotS: The hotkeys for the new Mothership Core and Oracle spells can't be changed within the Starcraft client without unbinding other things which is totally weird ...
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On October 27 2012 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Lancerx
"you claim this is the best optimal layout"
I think this is a bit of an overstatement. At most I would say that we think its the best for now, but we're always finding ways to make it better. But we do think it it worth it. With that out of the way, "Why TheCore?"
1. It takes approximately 4-5 times longer to hit a key that is one away from the home keys than a home key.
2. Shift is the most pressed key in an average game of high level Sc2. (masters+) This was based on heat charts sent to us by players. It was consistently the "hottest" key by far.
This is where we started. We tested a variety of home key positions and rated the keys around them using the following criteria:
Reach
Knuckle Separation
Wrist Rotation
Wrist Slide
Secondary Finger Displacement
Curl beyond vertical press
Full extension before press
Tilted press
Thumb Cramp
Double Key strike.
Most of these are self explanatory, and I will be making a video series on the development of TheCore asap. But i have a lot of other things on my plate right now, so i appreciate your patience.
Based on this, we found that the "offset" of the standard keyboard (not laid out like the num pad) was a big part of making keys difficult to press around the standard home key position. This is why TheCore favors a tilt. Also, the pinky is significantly shorter than the other fingers. This is why we didn't go with an ASDF or JKL; home key position.
Having shift as one of the home keys was absolutely necessary given that shift is the most pressed key in the game. And after trying many combinations, it was clear that having the thumb on shift was the optimal home key position, from there we have JIOP and WERG (for left and right side).
Now that we have our home position set. The next thing to consider is what to put on which keys.
Some things to note about the human hand.
The thumb and pinky are the most independent, strongest fingers in the human hand. Out of your non-thumb fingers, the pinky is the strongest, and has the most potential for dexterity. The reason many players feel that this is not true, is because the pinky is often the least trained, least exercised of the 5 fingers; it is important to remember that the pinky has the greatest potential for dexterity. It will take time and training to unlock this.
Sc2 commands are broken up into 3 main groups. Control groups, abilities, and cameras. The main 2 of these 3 are Control groups and abilites. To optimize combinations, we want to separate CGs and Abls to different fingers. Abilities were given to the pinky and ring, the CGs were given to the index and middle. This is so that players can easily tap between 2 macro control groups very quickly (or 4 if you like to use 4). Cameras for bases are layered so that you can get to them as quickly as possible for drop response and injects. This is so much faster than using the F keys Free Cams will most often be followed by control groups, warp in, chronoboost, set rally point. So they are placed on the opposing side with the Ability keys.
There are a ton of other things, I'll get to them as soon as possible in video form. But I hope that answers your specific question well enough for now.
First let me say thank you for such a nice reply. I am seriously considering to try this layout. I am a high masters player and understand the time it will take for me to retrain the way I play using this layout, so I am sure you understand some of my reservations in committing to such an overwhelming task.
I have to say though that I do agree that shift and Control are important keys, specially shift for obvious reasons. It is for this sole reason that I bound my 2 extra mouse buttons to control and shift. This allows me to never have to move my fingers on keyboard to shift or control and allows me to improve my speed dramatically.
So is this the main reason for moving the layout to the right side of the keyboard? In order to better use shift/control? I wonder if I might try this layout but with it on left side of keyboard since I use the control/shift key on mouse. What are your thoughts on this? I think I may give this layout a try, and see how I like it.
I have to say though at masters play where I am now, having more apm is usually not that big of a deal. I find myself losing most games because of mental mistakes and lapses in judgment, but if your layout is far superior and can indeed increase my response time to battles,drops, harass and production times then It may be worth looking into. It would have to be dramatic for me to really want to consider it.
Thank you for your responses.
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On October 27 2012 10:44 CapSeb wrote:
I would like to see an update for HotS: The hotkeys for the new Mothership Core and Oracle spells can't be changed within the Starcraft client without unbinding other things which is totally weird ...
Did Jak use text file-edited keybinds on the HotS layout already? -.-
We found out a way to use keybinds which cannot be used in the ingame editor. We call these text file-edited keybinds. In exchange, if you edit any other keybind ingame, all of the text file-edited keybinds disappear. Check for Ctrl+(key) combos among the commands that disappeared. If that's not the case, then I don't know what's going on.
Text file-edited keybinds aren't supposed to be in the normal TheCore layouts. They're working on TheCore+/TheCore Pro/whatever they're calling it now, which will be the exclusive home for those keybinds.
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EPT
