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On October 01 2012 00:02 Salomonster wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This is actually a bug in ZRM 0.5. Whenever you find something like this, the first thing you should do is check the data document to see if it is actually unintentional. The data document shows that your suggested change is actually what Jak decided was best, just it never made it into the actual hotkeys file. This will be fixed in the next update.
I actually did look into the data document but couldn't find it, now that I look again I'm amazed that I missed it...
Yeah the document has so much stuff in it that it can be hard to find exactly what you're looking for, so I wouldn't sweat it
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We're working on making all the most important information on the first page, with the details in the other pages. If you have a question, and want to see if the data document answers it, it will likely be on the first page labeled "Main Page"
Concerning observing:
I'm going to take some time at one point to optimize TheCore for observing, this takes the back seat to things like HotS compatibility and bug fixing, but I will get the Observer functions working awesomely in the future.
Thanks again :D
EDIT: We're working on making some videos and maybe a FAQ style blog for TheCore. These are the questions that we're planning to answer right now:
Things to Explain
If your question isn't in these lists and you think it should be. Please post your question here and why you think it should be included in the explaination videos/blog.
Thanks again (as usual) :D
EDIT 2: I just uploaded the new files to the skydrive. The Zerg layouts can now shift queue hold position (sorry about that).
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On September 30 2012 23:25 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 16:24 Salomonster wrote:
Just realized that you can't shift que hold possition with the ZRM (reacall basecam shift+k) as a zerg this is quite an impartant thing to be able to do imo, I know we had a discussion about ignoring the ability to shift que stop command but what happened to hold possition?
My personal sollution would probbably be to moove camera keys one step t the right: from KL; to L;'
or is shift+8 available? in that case just swap hold possition(K) with Stop(8) This is actually a bug in ZRM 0.5. Whenever you find something like this, the first thing you should do is check the data document to see if it is actually unintentional. The data document shows that your suggested change is actually what Jak decided was best, just it never made it into the actual hotkeys file. This will be fixed in the next update. Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 20:43 guitarizt wrote:
Has anyone got this down yet? I love the location of the keys, but the control groups and camera hotkeys seem about as unintuitive as they could be. I don't get why there's just one control group that is alt + enter when all the other ones are control + shift + the key. Everyone - can you please specify which layout you are using when you ask questions or report bugs?I assume you are using one of the Zerg layouts, although i don't think any layout is supposed to have alt + enter as a control group. If you are using ZRM for example, there should be one hotkey that is set with alt + [, added to with alt + p, and recalled with shift + p. This is set up to make injecting as efficient as possible. The steps are as follows: 1. Add queens to your control group with alt + p. If you ever have to reset the control group (which happens less often), it is the less intuitive alt + [. Then, the inject process is very efficient. 2. Hold shift (keep holding shift throughout) 3. Press p (select queens). 4. Press o (inject). 5. Press semi-colon, click, L, click, K, click. (cycle through base cams and click to inject each one). 6. If injecting more than 3 bases, you can continue injecting with -,0,9 as your base cams for bases 4,5,6. As an important note -- Zerg is the only race which has a special control group set up like this. If you really really don't like it, you could play with one of the other layouts instead (like Random). I think once you get used to it, you'll like it.Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 14:39 Becuula wrote:Short Bug Report for the PRM Layout: ReplayPause doesn't work, It's on the same key as ControlGroup 8. [Edit  It only doesn`t work if you have something from a player in target, who has bound something to CG 8 (main army). Otherwise the pause key works. This is actually a problem with almost all of the replay keys, they all overlap with control groups. I believe Jak wanted to make controlling a replay just like playing the game with TheCore, but the overlaps with control groups fail when, as you said, you have something from a player selected and that player has the corresponding control group bound to something.
It would be nice if someone could do an extensive youtube video on this. There's no way I would have been able to figure that out before and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best control groups for units/hatches/queens without finding something I liked. I've tried zrm and zrs and I like zrs the best so far, but I can't remember the control groups or cameras. It seems insanely unintuitive. I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatches and units, and everything isn't lined up perfectly. For instance the control groups 1 through 3 are control+shift "=" "-" "0". Then control group 4 is "/". Control groups 5-6 are "]" "[". Then control group 7 is alt+enter which throws a wrench into the whole thing.
Actually just reading your post and typing this out helps. I think I was too focused on having the control groups need to be in order from 1 to 0 and visualizing that on the kb. If I just forget about that and memorize the new control groups and section that off into hatches and units on the keyboard it doesn't matter what it says on the 1-0 control group tab in the gui.
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On October 01 2012 04:48 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 23:25 JDub wrote:On September 30 2012 16:24 Salomonster wrote:
Just realized that you can't shift que hold possition with the ZRM (reacall basecam shift+k) as a zerg this is quite an impartant thing to be able to do imo, I know we had a discussion about ignoring the ability to shift que stop command but what happened to hold possition?
My personal sollution would probbably be to moove camera keys one step t the right: from KL; to L;'
or is shift+8 available? in that case just swap hold possition(K) with Stop(8) This is actually a bug in ZRM 0.5. Whenever you find something like this, the first thing you should do is check the data document to see if it is actually unintentional. The data document shows that your suggested change is actually what Jak decided was best, just it never made it into the actual hotkeys file. This will be fixed in the next update. On September 30 2012 20:43 guitarizt wrote:
Has anyone got this down yet? I love the location of the keys, but the control groups and camera hotkeys seem about as unintuitive as they could be. I don't get why there's just one control group that is alt + enter when all the other ones are control + shift + the key. Everyone - can you please specify which layout you are using when you ask questions or report bugs?I assume you are using one of the Zerg layouts, although i don't think any layout is supposed to have alt + enter as a control group. If you are using ZRM for example, there should be one hotkey that is set with alt + [, added to with alt + p, and recalled with shift + p. This is set up to make injecting as efficient as possible. The steps are as follows: 1. Add queens to your control group with alt + p. If you ever have to reset the control group (which happens less often), it is the less intuitive alt + [. Then, the inject process is very efficient. 2. Hold shift (keep holding shift throughout) 3. Press p (select queens). 4. Press o (inject). 5. Press semi-colon, click, L, click, K, click. (cycle through base cams and click to inject each one). 6. If injecting more than 3 bases, you can continue injecting with -,0,9 as your base cams for bases 4,5,6. As an important note -- Zerg is the only race which has a special control group set up like this. If you really really don't like it, you could play with one of the other layouts instead (like Random). I think once you get used to it, you'll like it.On September 30 2012 14:39 Becuula wrote:Short Bug Report for the PRM Layout: ReplayPause doesn't work, It's on the same key as ControlGroup 8. [Edit It only doesn`t work if you have something from a player in target, who has bound something to CG 8 (main army). Otherwise the pause key works. This is actually a problem with almost all of the replay keys, they all overlap with control groups. I believe Jak wanted to make controlling a replay just like playing the game with TheCore, but the overlaps with control groups fail when, as you said, you have something from a player selected and that player has the corresponding control group bound to something. It would be nice if someone could do an extensive youtube video on this. There's no way I would have been able to figure that out before and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best control groups for units/hatches/queens without finding something I liked. I've tried zrm and zrs and I like zrs the best so far, but I can't remember the control groups or cameras. It seems insanely unintuitive. I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatches and units, and everything isn't lined up perfectly. For instance the control groups 1 through 3 are control+shift "=" "-" "0". Then control group 4 is "/". Control groups 5-6 are "]" "[". Then control group 7 is alt+enter which throws a wrench into the whole thing. Actually just reading your post and typing this out helps. I think I was too focused on having the control groups need to be in order from 1 to 0 and visualizing that on the kb. If I just forget about that and memorize the new control groups and section that off into hatches and units on the keyboard it doesn't matter what it says on the 1-0 control group tab in the gui.
I definitely understand what you're saying here. This special set-up for injections (which is in no way obvious) is new as of 0.5. Because 0.5 is still in the process of having bugs fixed, etc. Jak has not had time to make videos explaining everything. But don't worry! Soon Jak will begin making videos / updating the images so that the OP will contain a full explanation of TheCore 0.5. The small and large hand layouts are also new as of 0.5, so there are currently no images at all to help you visualize what is a control group, where your cameras are, etc. so it'll be kinda on you to figure it out until Jak has the time to update the OP with all of the info.
For now, feel free to ask any more questions you have here.
Edit: I think alt+enter is a mistake. It should be alt+] to set the control group, alt+p to add to it, and shift+p to go to it. Really confusing.
Edit #2: Confirmed, alt+enter was a mistake. You can get the latest versions here: https://github.com/jonnyhweiss/TheCoreConverter
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Sweet thanks for fixing it so fast and thanks for all the work you guys are putting in.
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I use the RRM setup but main zerg. I was so sure that the changes to control/shift were stupid, I almost just said F it and gave up on the core entirely without even giving the new version a shot. I was actually almost angry that you would make such a ridiculous change.
After playing 2 quick games vs AI, I have to say that I was horribly mistaken... The changes to camera hotkeys and control groups makes it so that now I virtually NEVER screw up my control groups by accident. Love it already.
Also really enjoy some of the other hotkey changes for Z (overlord upgrades on lair, advanced building, etc)
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What exactly happened is that Korean Windows' default setting just ignores all right ALT&CTRL inputs. It is totally different problem than what you thought, so your method doesn't help me.
If any Korean have same problem as mine(ignoring ctrl,shift, alt), you can fix by re-installing your Keyboard driver as 101/103 compatible Type 3, in which you switch Hangeul to/from Latin alphabet by Shift+Space combination. I used to play SC2 on other computers like in PC-bang, so I can't make transition to Core immediately. 
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On October 01 2012 12:24 azurespace wrote:What exactly happened is that Korean Windows' default setting just ignores all right ALT&CTRL inputs. It is totally different problem than what you thought, so your method doesn't help me. If any Korean have same problem as mine(ignoring ctrl,shift, alt), you can fix by re-installing your Keyboard driver as 101/103 compatible Type 3, in which you switch Hangeul to/from Latin alphabet by Shift+Space combination. I used to play SC2 on other computers like in PC-bang, so I can't make transition to Core immediately.
Don't use the links I posted. The layouts are older than these ones:
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On September 30 2012 01:39 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 23:08 chmouix wrote:
I still changed a few stuff here and there for my personnal usage (i play random). Give me your thoughts if i missed something (like for the tumors stuff).
As i said above, sentries get I and stalkers get K while warpgate transforms on M
melee and range zerg upgrade swap for melee on J and range on K, since melee is more often used
Hydra Den goes on M to let infestation pit on J and Spire on I
Overlords come back to J while zerglings goes on K. Roachs are now M
Queens are on J and lair / hive tech gets K
These all seem like pretty solid changes to me. One note is that the melee/range zerg upgrade was actually a bug (what you changed it to is what is in the data document). I'd like to hear Jak's thoughts on them. The zerg evo upgrades will be fixed in the next update.
I've just started using the core with the release of 0.5 (using RRM). I found the key variations for upgrades between different races too difficult to adjust to. I changed as much as I could to J & I as follows:
melee shoot armor shields
x J I evo chamber
J I spire
I ultra den
J I eng bay
x x armory (mech)
J I armory (air)
J I x forge
J I cyber core
This way for any building for any race I'm thinking J & I for shooting and armor upgrades, with M & K available for leftovers. I know the core is based on key usage so I'm going against the concept a bit, but, there is a variant for small hands, why not one for small brains?
Having said that I am loving the change (having overcome the frustration of being roflstomped by the medium AI on my first attempt); I can't believe how little my hand moves between selecting a control group and telling it to do something.
One note: for RRM there is a difference between what shows on the data doc and what came through as the keys in the file. I think I prefer what's in the file to the data doc, but these are the differences:
Doc File
8 Infestor
H Swarm Host Infestor
N Hydralisk Corruptor
, Corruptor Hydralisk
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On October 01 2012 12:24 azurespace wrote:What exactly happened is that Korean Windows' default setting just ignores all right ALT&CTRL inputs. It is totally different problem than what you thought, so your method doesn't help me. If any Korean have same problem as mine(ignoring ctrl,shift, alt), you can fix by re-installing your Keyboard driver as 101/103 compatible Type 3, in which you switch Hangeul to/from Latin alphabet by Shift+Space combination. I used to play SC2 on other computers like in PC-bang, so I can't make transition to Core immediately.
Have you tried the registry fix I proposed a few pages back?
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does anybody have a german RRM file that works with hots? i cant do it myself because of the "unbind other stuff" bug.
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I downloaded the newest PRMM and half the keys was unbound
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It works, but it might have been my fault it did not at first.
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TheCore 0.5 is now HotS compatible! The latest version has not yet been uploaded to the skydrive, but it is available on the GitHub.
Special thanks to mcht for helping me test HotS compatibility!!
On October 01 2012 23:43 phos4 wrote:
does anybody have a german RRM file that works with hots? i cant do it myself because of the "unbind other stuff" bug.
The German RRM can be downloaded here:https://raw.github.com/jonnyhweiss/TheCoreConverter/master/German/TheCore RRM 0.5.SC2Hotkeys
On October 02 2012 00:31 GrassEater wrote:
It works, but it might have been my fault it did not at first.
Could you clarify? Is half the stuff unbound or is half the stuff not unbound? No one has tested the Nordic layout that my script is generating (I tried to make sure the output of mine is the same as running Phatency's program, but I have not been able to confirm this yet, and I only have a US keyboard to test with).
Edit: The latest version has been uploaded to the SkyDrive
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The newest files have been uploaded to the skydrive :D
Everything should be HotS compatible. Keep the feedbacks coming :D
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I started using TheCore as well as TheLevels today. I'm a zerg and I guess myself at platinum level (was gold a few seasons ago, kinda lucked myself to 5 placement wins and diamond last season, didn't ladder since). I'm at 1.1 at the moment, but so far I can say I like both the layout and the training programme. There are two things I really have issues with at the moment. First, hitting right alt with my thumb and kl; with their respective fingers, probably because I don't move my thumb in the most optimal way yet. Secondly, the new modifiers for control groups, especially the queen group. Brilliant, but takes some time to relearn. Both should come with practise.
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I play Zerg almost exclusively but I'm interested in trying other races or playing as random in the future. I'm trying to decide between the Zerg and random layouts. I think a medium size layout would suit me best and I'm going to be using the extra mouse buttons with my left hand on the keyboard. How much better for Zerg is the Zerg layout compared to the random layout, and how much better for the other races is the random layout compared to the Zerg layout?
Would it be a bad idea to learn the Zerg layout for Zerg, the Terran layout for Terran etc.? I get the feeling this wouldn't work since the Zerg layout uses "-" as a control group while the other layouts do not, and the other layouts use "=" as a control group while the Zerg layout does not.
Using the Steelseries firmware, I'm able to set the mouse buttons to act as any key. Have you ever considered using the extra mouse buttons as modifier keys like control and shift? This may allow you to position your hand to access more 1x1 keys in the middle of the keyboard rather than being bound to one side in order to reach the modifiers with your thumb.
I don't find it overly difficult to press one of the buttons on the right side my Sensei mouse with my ring finger. Are there any actions which immediately come to mind when you consider the possibility of using a third extra mouse button?
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On October 02 2012 16:24 Kalmarauder wrote:
I play Zerg almost exclusively but I'm interested in trying other races or playing as random in the future. I'm trying to decide between the Zerg and random layouts. I think a medium size layout would suit me best and I'm going to be using the extra mouse buttons with my left hand on the keyboard. How much better for Zerg is the Zerg layout compared to the random layout, and how much better for the other races is the random layout compared to the Zerg layout?
Would it be a bad idea to learn the Zerg layout for Zerg, the Terran layout for Terran etc.? I get the feeling this wouldn't work since the Zerg layout uses "-" as a control group while the other layouts do not, and the other layouts use "=" as a control group while the Zerg layout does not.
Using the Steelseries firmware, I'm able to set the mouse buttons to act as any key. Have you ever considered using the extra mouse buttons as modifier keys like control and shift? This may allow you to position your hand to access more 1x1 keys in the middle of the keyboard rather than being bound to one side in order to reach the modifiers with your thumb.
I don't find it overly difficult to press one of the buttons on the right side my Sensei mouse with my ring finger. Are there any actions which immediately come to mind when you consider the possibility of using a third extra mouse button?
I can't comment on the different layouts since I haven't tried them out so I will leave that for others.
concerning the different setups for different races:
I have played all races with standard, grid and custom hot keys and I must say that If I would play more than one race now I would go with different hot key setups for each race (unless I played random). While this will take longer to learn, it will be more efficient when you learned it. If you think about it it's no different then learning all 3 races with standard hotkeys, except for the swapped CG's you mentioned.
If you consistently use CG's in the same way (for the same units/structures) every game you won't even think about them as CG's when you finally learned them they will just be "ghost" or "tank" or whatever you use them for, and since you don't use the same units for all races I don't see it becoming a problem.
In my mind its all about the time you would want to invest in learning.
Concerning mouse buttons:
I have been using thumb buttons ALOT. I use the Razer Naga (12 thumb buttons)(mostly because I come from mmo's).
Using thumb buttons have some major issues whether you have 2 or 12 of them.
First of all, using thumb buttons will decrease your mouse precision, depending a little on what grip you use the sacrifice might be less, but it will still effect precision to some extent due to the fact that your grip generally change when pressing a thumb button.
Using thumb buttons may increase the strain on your mouse hand. especially if you use the buttons allot. I used them for CG's originally. having 1-4 on my keyboard and the rest on the mouse. CG's on the mouse for queens, ups, and overseer/BL's. This was a bad way to do it since it is one of the biggest reasons why I now have carpal tunnel issues.
Since Shift is the most pressed key in the game I DO NOT recommend rebinding it to a mouse button for both of these reasons. Pressing shift with the keyboard hand thumb is actually extremely good since it is 1. really strong. 2.really agile. 3. most medium sized hands can reach 2 thirds of a keyboard while still pressing right shift.
mouse buttons are really fast to hit, so I get your point about using them, but the way I see it (I recently stopped using mine btw) the core actually removes the need for mouse buttons completely, due to everything being in comfortable distance from shift+ctrl.
If I would start using thumb buttons again I would definitely use it for something I don't use as much like the two freecams and use those for creepspread/rally/warpin pylons or overseer/observer or maybe burrow/unburrow
I hope this wasn't to much negative feedback for you, just want to share some of my concerns about thumb buttons. I tried it the wrong way. Learn from my mistakes.
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Am I supposed to be able to press both alt and ctrl at the same time with my tumb? otherwise I don´t get it how to use "Center camera on selection"
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EPT
