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First of all I would like to say thank you for making this layout, it has improved my gameplay temendously as a player, however I do have some things to say so far.
One general thing for everyone that is having problems with using ctrl+shift is that some keyboards have to much of a distance between your homekeys and ctrl+shift so find a keyboards that lets your thumb comfortably rest over both of them.
The second thing is the problem of getting my control groups messed up when I try to switch camera locations. Sometimes the ctrl or the shift will not register and makes my control group on "P" very messy.
The last issue I have in specifically for the ZRM which is the build worker button "o". It is fine in most cases but sometimes when you have few larvae and are trying to build an overlord you hit "o" twice making a worker.
That's it, I hope that this information helps the development of this great project.
-Etoshi
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Don't just spam O, spam O and the morph overlord button. This solves that issue.
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Hey all, Vern here!
Im currently in the midst of testing this, a little background on me:
Played sc2 for 5 days so far using grid placed bronze and rapidly got promoted up to platinum.
I come from a intensive training background ( its kind of hinted at in my thread from a while back after the fall of MMO's as esports.
Will be aiming to test this keyboard layout ( im using Prm - Protoss, left hand on keyboard, no extra mouse buttons) extensively and post results.
Day 1:
Concerns
I'm concerned about macro under this set up iv always focused on tapping as a skill set, will have to investigate sub grouping a little more.
Plus points
Pre the core, my unit control with really rather bad, and i won by out macroing / out thinking my opponents - so far iv seen a rapid increase in my unit control.
Sad points
Dang this thing is hard to adjust to, im used to the concept of optimized key binds - doing a fair amount of work on similar concepts for MMOs, however, this is really hard to adjust to due to the apm you are playing at ( in my case only around 100-120 )
What i did today to learn the keybinds
Today i spent 4 hours numbly staring at the hotkey trainer thats mentioned in the OP - really good at teaching you what each hotkey does, i changed the names of "control group 1,2, etc, to the purpuse described in the Data File which was a massive help.
I then proceeded to face the very easy ai, executing the standard 4 gate, i chose this build because it has very stringent timings that can be easily measured to check my progress on the very basics of using the layout before changing to more late game builds.
Will edit this with more conclusions in the morning.
Day 1.5
Quick update really, switched from 4 gate to a build that i have comparable replays from Grid settings so i can compare the timings etc.
The build is Mc's 7 gate 1 gas all in ( click me )
Compared 2 average replay games of me using Grid and me using PRM ( prm having only been used for about a day and a half )
Grid:
Gates are ready to warp @ 7:50
( in most games this would result in the push starting, however in the replay ( the only 1.5 replay i had of me doing this build on grid )
35 Probes.
Average APM at warp in: 98
Average EAPM at warp in: 45....
PRM:
Gates ready to warp: 8:02
36/37 probes.
Average APM at warp in: 55
Average EAPM at warp in 45
Conclusion.
i am not going to lie, theese stats suprised me no end, as i make a TON of mistakes when im using PRM, i still feel as if im having to glance at the keyboard every 10-20 seconds, and yet im not that far behind grid ( platinum )
i will add day 2 in the morning.
Day 2
Hey guys, real quick update, iv been playing a fair few games, sadly i had to go out so i only got a chance to play around 10 games, but i decided to post every other games basic stats for you to compare.
The is using the same build mentioned earlier: ( [url=http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC%27s_7_Gate_1_Gas_All-in_(vs._Zerg)]The build is Mc's 7 gate 1 gas all in /url]
stats:
Game 1.
Warpgates ready: 7:47
Probe count: 38
APM: 60
Epm: 41
Game 2:
Warpgates ready: 7:39
Probe count: 32
APM:60
Epm:48
Game 3.
Warpgates ready: 7:21
Probe count: 35
APM: 58
Epm:45
Game 4.
Warpgates ready: 7:10
Probe count: 31
APM:70
Epm: 42
Review
Not sure how it happened, or were the time came from, but i am having a far easier time in optimizing the very small aspects of my build mainly just making sure timing was crisp etc.
i am still kind of in shock were those 40 seconds came from.
Will post more information when iv actually managed to play some more games now that my net is back up again 
Also, my unit control, which has historically been my biggest issue ( i got up to platinum just by macroing really hard )
having issues with supply blocking myself as the muscle memory just isn't there at the moment, but i get the feeling im almost there 
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@Vernay
Tabbed production makes tapping easier because you only have to check 2 things and you see all of your production instead of having to check 3-4 things.
Thanks for testing with us :D
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ZRM -
Chat cancel all hotkey should still be bound to escape as an alternative keybind. When typing messages people tend to use 2 hands and escape is more natural.
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Further The Core adjustment period update
I've now played a rather obscene number of games with the core(I would guess 250+). Currently the key positioning feels very natural and only on a few rare things do I have to think about the finger placement.
At this point I feel that I am playing just as well or better than before and some things have greatly improved. Most notably is my ability to effectively perform warp prism based pushes. Having everything close with minimal hand movement really makes this easier.
The last two things I am having trouble with are "/" to do subgroup production and camera hotkeys. I am considering binding camera locations to the side buttons on my Logitech "mmo" mouse.
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On August 17 2012 01:50 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Vernay
Tabbed production makes tapping easier because you only have to check 2 things and you see all of your production instead of having to check 3-4 things.
Thanks for testing with us :D
hehe quick comparison for tapping grid vs PRM:
123123123123123123
nexus's on one, robo on two, and stargate on 3.
Compared with:
popopopopopopopo
but then you have to add in if you want to see the que times on specific building etc, but so far it looks good
taking a while to get used to it tho, will update my post soonish with day 2's information.
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Northern Ireland27250 Posts
Haven't actually looked at this thread in a while. Blown away by the detail and thoroughness of the OP, top job.
That said I'm stuck in my ways so probably won't be adopting but it clearly has helped a lot of people improve mechanically
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Thanks for this layout!! I've been using it since you guys released it and I really like it. However, I've still been using an old version (v 0.2 PRMM) and since I've recently decided to switch to Random as well as update my version. In doing so I've noticed that the Random hotkeys deviate from what I've been using quite a bit where as the updated Protoss ones do it much less so and I'm a lot more comfortable with them.
So my question is, does anyone know what the advantages of using and getting use to the Random setup are as opposed to the updated Protoss one for someone in my situation?
Sorry if this post was kind of long for one question... Cheers!
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On August 17 2012 05:59 LessPewPewMoarQQ wrote:
Thanks for this layout!! I've been using it since you guys released it and I really like it. However, I've still been using an old version (v 0.2 PRMM) and since I've recently decided to switch to Random as well as update my version. In doing so I've noticed that the Random hotkeys deviate from what I've been using quite a bit where as the updated Protoss ones do it much less so and I'm a lot more comfortable with them.
So my question is, does anyone know what the advantages of using and getting use to the Random setup are as opposed to the updated Protoss one for someone in my situation?
Sorry if this post was kind of long for one question... Cheers!
Personally, i really do think its a matter of personal preference - as someone currently in the proccese of switching from grid to PMR - i have kind of a decent insight into what its like to change to a totally new layout.
In my opinon, even the smallest increase in performance is worth what, 2 days work to adjust to a ladder suitable level, then maybe a week more to get back to were you where - looking at the layouts you suggested, i would strongly advice learning the random set up if you are playing random, i have 0 idea how you will manage your queens under the protoss lay out - id suggest either maining protoss as a race or learning the new random keybind set up.
Vern
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On August 17 2012 01:33 Vernay wrote:Hey all, Vern here! Im currently in the midst of testing this, a little background on me: Played sc2 for 5 days so far using grid placed bronze and rapidly got promoted up to platinum. I come from a intensive training background ( its kind of hinted at in my thread from a while back after the fall of MMO's as esports. Will be aiming to test this keyboard layout ( im using Prm - Protoss, left hand on keyboard, no extra mouse buttons) extensively and post results. Day 1:ConcernsI'm concerned about macro under this set up iv always focused on tapping as a skill set, will have to investigate sub grouping a little more. Plus pointsPre the core, my unit control with really rather bad, and i won by out macroing / out thinking my opponents - so far iv seen a rapid increase in my unit control. Sad pointsDang this thing is hard to adjust to, im used to the concept of optimized key binds - doing a fair amount of work on similar concepts for MMOs, however, this is really hard to adjust to due to the apm you are playing at ( in my case only around 100-120 ) What i did today to learn the keybindsToday i spent 4 hours numbly staring at the hotkey trainer thats mentioned in the OP - really good at teaching you what each hotkey does, i changed the names of "control group 1,2, etc, to the purpuse described in the Data File which was a massive help. I then proceeded to face the very easy ai, executing the standard 4 gate, i chose this build because it has very stringent timings that can be easily measured to check my progress on the very basics of using the layout before changing to more late game builds. Will edit this with more conclusions in the morning. Day 1.5 Quick update really, switched from 4 gate to a build that i have comparable replays from Grid settings so i can compare the timings etc. The build is Mc's 7 gate 1 gas all in ( click me )Compared 2 average replay games of me using Grid and me using PRM ( prm having only been used for about a day and a half ) Grid:Gates are ready to warp @ 7:50 ( in most games this would result in the push starting, however in the replay ( the only 1.5 replay i had of me doing this build on grid ) 35 Probes. Average APM at warp in: 98 Average EAPM at warp in: 45.... PRM:Gates ready to warp: 8:02 36/37 probes. Average APM at warp in: 55 Average EAPM at warp in 45 Conclusion.i am not going to lie, theese stats suprised me no end, as i make a TON of mistakes when im using PRM, i still feel as if im having to glance at the keyboard every 10-20 seconds, and yet im not that far behind grid ( platinum ) and the EAPM is way closer than i thought i would be, however, i do value flat apm as feeling fast is part of thinking fast i will add day 2 in the morning.
my post regarding the change from grid to PRM has been updated with a comparison of grid ---> prm after a day and a half.
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Thanks for the input and quick response Vern! But, as far as managing queens goes, the PRMM and RRMM layouts have the same camera and control group settings so the shouldn't be a problem.
Also, what I'm curious about is what the advantage of using the RRMM layout is so I know that their will be an increase in performance when using it over PRMM, because to me it looks like the hotkeys get more confusing for a little bit of consistency but I could be missing something...
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On August 17 2012 07:13 LessPewPewMoarQQ wrote:
Thanks for the input and quick response Vern! But, as far as managing queens goes, the PRMM and RRMM layouts have the same camera and control group settings so the shouldn't be a problem.
Also, what I'm curious about is what the advantage of using the RRMM layout is so I know that their will be an increase in performance when using it over PRMM, because to me it looks like the hotkeys get more confusing for a little bit of consistency but I could be missing something...
Could you elaborate on what you mean by ", because to me it looks like the hotkeys get more confusing for a little bit of consistency"
data files are not showing me any major changes ;/
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Sorry, what I mean is things like hold position go from m to h, patrol from , to b and other hotkeys that used to occupy things like [ get moved to m or something even though they were better suited on [ and nothing took it's place there. Now that I think about it I should probably just edit the layouts to fit my preferences shouldn't I?
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might be worth a try, personally i would say that the OP did a wonderful job optimizing - and i would put money if he moved keys for diffrent layouts it was for a reason, you can try and edit the layout, but id try and investigate why he may have moved thoose keys as i dont really have the experience with other races to guess why
Vern
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Greate work guys. As a one of 2%, I'm loving it.
ps.
I think that "Spawn creep tumor" ability shuld be on the same hotkey in Creep tumor and in a Queen.
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Oh dang, this guy is posting again.
I have been using the core for a month now, I didn't do any of the Elaborate training programs suggesting by Jakataka
Instead I did a bit of basic stuff, I was top 8 gold when I got the core, but not promotion level top 8.
The switch was horrible, heck I still can't use the "," key that well, its just.. freaking weird, even weirder in a heated battle when u trying to HMS with a raven.
So what I did, I failed, Failed again, and found a friend who stunk, practiced with him, failed some more, then, i started doing really simple custom games in YABOT, Set the timer for 10mins and played threw 6 times trying to get as much as supply as possible, then set the Reset to max food, and did it 3 more times just making scvs and marines, it really help me get the basic keys down.
Still couldn't ladder so I played with friends, who beat me, but hey I knew the end results, and about 4 days of brutally loosing to my friends, naturally I got better the whole time, I noticed my apm was almost always over 100, and decided it was pretty safe to ladder, lost first few games, then the Core took control of my hand, and I was #1 in my gold leauge with so many points I had to stop laddering so I could try to win a Z33k BSG before I got promoted.
I did it, I won the weekly bsg, and next day got promoted to plat, but had I not waited 2 weeks to try to win that, I would say I went from..
Top 8 gold 50% Win rate Standard keys
Top 25 Gold 0% win rate The Core 1-5days
Top 8 Gold 50% win rate The core 1 week- 2 weeks
Top 25 Plat 60%-70% win rate 2 weeks +
It works, its hard, there a few things that still need to be fiddled with, but hey for a beta the results speak for themselves!
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I just tried out this set up. It will take some getting used to, for sure, but I really like it thus far. It feels a lot more natural and ergonomic. Anything I can do to prevent carpal tunnel and repeditive motion injury is something worth looking in to at the very least.
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On August 15 2012 12:45 pyrostat wrote:when i press zerg, then right, then no 4th or 5th mouse buttons, in that order, i don't get a photo showing the layout. all i see is the download link and title... same for all other options. can somone give me an ss of this specific photo as it is the one that fits me. thanks EDIT: for example http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257590darkgrid shows it's layout; what each key is hotkeyed to etc..
thanks for the reply foxy, but for example how would i know which hotkeys are used for which/what part of my army? that's still impossible for me unless the creator actaully tells me or am i missing something?
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EPT
