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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 234

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Smackzilla
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States539 Posts
June 04 2013 02:20 GMT
#4661
Re: 0.7.1

So there's no argument that alt-j alt-p gets your main cg and camera set up faster. However, for Terran at least, this is a one time cost at the start of the game when you have surplus APM. Adding CCs and ebays to the P control group is something you do through much of the game and alt-J is more awkward than CTRL-P. Am I missing something?

(In the context of TRM qwerty)
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a f&%*ing challenge - Scroobius Pip
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
June 04 2013 03:53 GMT
#4662
On June 04 2013 09:04 Antylamon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 08:53 Smackzilla wrote:
On June 04 2013 08:30 Antylamon wrote:
On June 04 2013 08:19 Smackzilla wrote:
On June 04 2013 07:25 Antylamon wrote:
Wow, that keyboard must make Ctrl a lot slower. I think I might actually rewire the keyboard if I get a standard one.

Also, Shift is the most used key for one reason: you can hold it down and queue commands. Sounds simple, but the key fact is that you're holding it. Moving your hand to shift is only done once for every bunch of commands (I'd say it averages around 4 or 5), so it's not worth it to sacrifice time for Ctrl and Ctrl+Shift.


Doesn't seem slow, but the only other keyboards I used had similar layouts, so i have nothing to compare against. Regardless, the distance from "home" to CTRL and / don't seem much worse than the finger keys that are off of "home". Furthermore, I think I tend to anticipate where possible. For example, if micro is coming, my thumb slides close to the / for stim. If I'm macroing, I slide against (but not over) the CTRL key.

I still believe that Ctrl should be a home key.


I guess the big problem I have with CTRL as home is that it takes you further away from / for your stim key. Its basically 1 key near home instead of 2 keys.

Well as I tried to say before, my Ctrl is where your Windows key should be, so it doesn't affect me much. :I

What kind of keyboard are you using?
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 04 2013 04:10 GMT
#4663
@Smack

Setting up expansions takes 1 less keypress:

Before:
ctrl+P
alt +P

Now:
alt+J (continue holding alt)
P

I apologize for not being clear. Sometimes I oversimplify things in the quest for brevity. It is a thin line to walk.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
June 04 2013 08:50 GMT
#4664
Some may feel like Jak's description above is inaccurate, in the sense that it does not account for macro hatches/ccs. One argument against this change may look like this: "alt centres on selection AND is harder to press than Ctrl. Thus, even if there are gains associated with adding bases, we lose as much because of macro bases."

Here is my argument for why this line of reasoning is flawed. In order to see why this change is a net positive, consider this simplified thought experiment. Imagine if the only thing one build on a game was one macro hatch/cc. To add the main base into a control group and camera now takes 3 actions buttons instead of 4, and also eliminates a large thumb movement between ctrl and alt. Adding macro hatches / Ccs to control groups takes the same amount of actions, but has the inconvenience of being done with alt. Clearly though, saving an action and making the next one faster is a greater gain than making one action slightly slower is a loss.

Now consider that in a real game, one build far more bases than macros. This means that any gain obtained by the previous argument become multiplied. I'll explain this more clearly if it isn't very intelligible right now, but hopefully it is understandable
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Slashiepie
Profile Joined May 2013
107 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 11:19:41
June 04 2013 11:10 GMT
#4665
For the guys having problems with Ctrl/Shift, you can use Software like Sharpkeys to edit the registry and replace them. You could edit the windows or the alt key and replace them with control or shift, you can also manually edit the registry.

Btw: i have tried to like and use the center camera on alt, i always end up removing it, it never feels right to have to battle with the camera because it keeps centering itself, and no we don't necessarily always want the camera to center around a building.

I won't be using the new cores, because the changes and the time invested relearning has come to a point where the benefits wont make it worth for me, i don't know how others feel about this, but i'm curios as to know if people are actually updating.

Other than that nice job and thanks for the efforts.

Btw: The Hots Unit Tester makes practicing the core a pain in the ass, because some important keys of the R layout are assigned to functions in the Map, anyone has any ideas?
Kalma
Profile Joined January 2012
16 Posts
June 04 2013 13:38 GMT
#4666
I use following Autohotkey script to make right winkey work as alt. Advantage over some other programs is that the remapping happens only when sc2 is active.

#IfWinActive ahk_class StarCraft II
RWin::RAlt
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 04 2013 14:40 GMT
#4667
On June 04 2013 20:10 Slashiepie wrote:
I won't be using the new cores, because the changes and the time invested relearning has come to a point where the benefits wont make it worth for me, i don't know how others feel about this, but i'm curios as to know if people are actually updating.

Other than that nice job and thanks for the efforts.


I think this is what will happen eventually for most people. I don't think its bad or good, you get used to a certain version of TheCore and then keep it. Pretty sure there are tons of people out there still using 0.3.3. This is why we have the tagging system, that way anyone using version 0.7 or higher can always redownload if they lose their file, or if they think its a better version. I still play D&D 3.5 because it is my favorite version. Maybe I'll play the updated one someday, but for now, I love 3.5 and that's fine
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
UnseenAlchemist
Profile Joined March 2013
8 Posts
June 04 2013 15:20 GMT
#4668
Is it possible to use The core layouts for WoL and Hots campaigns?
I have no idea what is going on
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
June 04 2013 15:27 GMT
#4669
On June 05 2013 00:20 UnseenAlchemist wrote:
Is it possible to use The core layouts for WoL and Hots campaigns?

Yes, it is! A lot of work went into making it compatible with both campaigns.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 04 2013 16:02 GMT
#4670
When JDub says a lot of work, he is being very accurate. Campaign hotkeys are insane. Big thanks to SixtusTheFifth for being phenomenal
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
June 04 2013 16:28 GMT
#4671
I like the new changes actually, I'm sure I'll get used to. them
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
UnseenAlchemist
Profile Joined March 2013
8 Posts
June 04 2013 18:18 GMT
#4672
On June 05 2013 00:27 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2013 00:20 UnseenAlchemist wrote:
Is it possible to use The core layouts for WoL and Hots campaigns?

Yes, it is! A lot of work went into making it compatible with both campaigns.


I seem to have unbound keys. Is this normal? Or should I be using Random layout for campaigns?
I have no idea what is going on
Smackzilla
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States539 Posts
June 04 2013 18:53 GMT
#4673
On June 04 2013 17:50 Ninjury_J wrote:
Some may feel like Jak's description above is inaccurate, in the sense that it does not account for macro hatches/ccs. One argument against this change may look like this: "alt centres on selection AND is harder to press than Ctrl. Thus, even if there are gains associated with adding bases, we lose as much because of macro bases."

Here is my argument for why this line of reasoning is flawed. In order to see why this change is a net positive, consider this simplified thought experiment. Imagine if the only thing one build on a game was one macro hatch/cc. To add the main base into a control group and camera now takes 3 actions buttons instead of 4, and also eliminates a large thumb movement between ctrl and alt. Adding macro hatches / Ccs to control groups takes the same amount of actions, but has the inconvenience of being done with alt. Clearly though, saving an action and making the next one faster is a greater gain than making one action slightly slower is a loss.

Now consider that in a real game, one build far more bases than macros. This means that any gain obtained by the previous argument become multiplied. I'll explain this more clearly if it isn't very intelligible right now, but hopefully it is understandable


I think you have to separate the argument for zerg and terran. While zerg might reset their camera after the hatch starts, terran can set their 6 base cams before the first SCV finishes while holding down alt the whole time. Granted, a few changes could happen in a game, especially on 4 player maps, but I'd guess I average at least 7 to 1 on adding buildings to my macro CG vs. reseting a base cam (e.g. 4+ CCs, 2 ebays, and an armory). Most games, I don't need to reset a base cam.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a f&%*ing challenge - Scroobius Pip
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 19:12:05
June 04 2013 19:08 GMT
#4674
On June 04 2013 12:53 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 09:04 Antylamon wrote:
On June 04 2013 08:53 Smackzilla wrote:
On June 04 2013 08:30 Antylamon wrote:
On June 04 2013 08:19 Smackzilla wrote:
On June 04 2013 07:25 Antylamon wrote:
Wow, that keyboard must make Ctrl a lot slower. I think I might actually rewire the keyboard if I get a standard one.

Also, Shift is the most used key for one reason: you can hold it down and queue commands. Sounds simple, but the key fact is that you're holding it. Moving your hand to shift is only done once for every bunch of commands (I'd say it averages around 4 or 5), so it's not worth it to sacrifice time for Ctrl and Ctrl+Shift.


Doesn't seem slow, but the only other keyboards I used had similar layouts, so i have nothing to compare against. Regardless, the distance from "home" to CTRL and / don't seem much worse than the finger keys that are off of "home". Furthermore, I think I tend to anticipate where possible. For example, if micro is coming, my thumb slides close to the / for stim. If I'm macroing, I slide against (but not over) the CTRL key.

I still believe that Ctrl should be a home key.


I guess the big problem I have with CTRL as home is that it takes you further away from / for your stim key. Its basically 1 key near home instead of 2 keys.

Well as I tried to say before, my Ctrl is where your Windows key should be, so it doesn't affect me much. :I

What kind of keyboard are you using?

QWERTY with a weird Ctrl key, basically. The left arrow key is about 3/4 cms to the right of Ctrl.
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
June 04 2013 19:59 GMT
#4675
Sorry Smack, I'm not following you. I agree we should separate T and Z (P isn't affected since there are no "macro" nexii unless one does something cool with photon overcharge. I'm not sure what your argument is exactly, or what you are trying to conclude.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
June 04 2013 20:04 GMT
#4676
On June 05 2013 03:18 UnseenAlchemist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2013 00:27 JDub wrote:
On June 05 2013 00:20 UnseenAlchemist wrote:
Is it possible to use The core layouts for WoL and Hots campaigns?

Yes, it is! A lot of work went into making it compatible with both campaigns.


I seem to have unbound keys. Is this normal? Or should I be using Random layout for campaigns?

Which layout are you using and which keys are unbound?
Smackzilla
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States539 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 21:41:35
June 04 2013 21:40 GMT
#4677
On June 05 2013 04:59 Ninjury_J wrote:
Sorry Smack, I'm not following you. I agree we should separate T and Z (P isn't affected since there are no "macro" nexii unless one does something cool with photon overcharge. I'm not sure what your argument is exactly, or what you are trying to conclude.


Sorry, hopefully this will clarify (using US QWERTY TRM as an example):

With 0.7.0, at the start of a match, I:

1) CTRL-P my CC
2) Hold down ALT
3) Press P
4) Drag scroll to Natural, hit O
5) Repeat for 3rd through 6th bases
6) Release ALT

At this point, my base cams are set and it is unlikely I'll ever use ALT again for the rest of the match. However, for the rest of the match, I'll use CTRL-P to add CCs, ebays, and armories (yes, armories are a holdover from 0.6.3) to my P control group.

With 0.7.1, there's no argument, that hotkeying my main CC and setting up the cameras is faster. Not having to move the thumb from CTRL to ALT is very nice. However, that advantage only benefits me once in the entire game at a time when I have so much free APM that I can chat with my opponent or at least type "GLFH".

The downside with 0.7.1 is that later in the game I'll add to my P control group several times when my APM is much more precious. I'll use ALT-J instead of using CTRL-P. Currently, that's considerably slower and more error prone for me. I'll grant you that will get better with practice.

Furthermore, I'll rarely take advantage of having ALT pressed to update my base cam when I add a CC to the P control group. This is because the base cam creation I did at the start of the game is likely to be just fine. Even if that's not the case, a terran will often build CCs away from the expansion and then float, so I'm probably doing ALT-J at a different time than when I update the expansion's base cam.

I hope that clears things up, and I hope I don't seem too negative. I've been very happy with the changes from 0.6 to 0.7 on the whole. I just feel this one point might not be optimal for terran.

You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a f&%*ing challenge - Scroobius Pip
UnseenAlchemist
Profile Joined March 2013
8 Posts
June 04 2013 22:53 GMT
#4678
On June 05 2013 05:04 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2013 03:18 UnseenAlchemist wrote:
On June 05 2013 00:27 JDub wrote:
On June 05 2013 00:20 UnseenAlchemist wrote:
Is it possible to use The core layouts for WoL and Hots campaigns?

Yes, it is! A lot of work went into making it compatible with both campaigns.


I seem to have unbound keys. Is this normal? Or should I be using Random layout for campaigns?

Which layout are you using and which keys are unbound?


I'm using ZRM 0.6.3, the unbound keys are:

Barracks: War pigs, Devil dogs, train Spectre, Skibi's angel, Death head, train elite unit.
Factory: Spartan company, Siege breakers, outback hunter, sentry bot, Campaign vehicles.
Starport: Hel's Angels, Dusk wings.
Fleet Beacon: Research Quantum Reactor, Research Bosonic core.
Merc compund: Outback Hunter.

I only have unbound keys for the Hots campaign.
I have no idea what is going on
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
June 04 2013 23:15 GMT
#4679
@Smack. Excellent point. I did not know terran does not update cams. What if we used ctrl p as an alternate for add to cg1?
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 23:55:54
June 04 2013 23:54 GMT
#4680
Doublepost
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