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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
So there's no argument that alt-j alt-p gets your main cg and camera set up faster. However, for Terran at least, this is a one time cost at the start of the game when you have surplus APM. Adding CCs and ebays to the P control group is something you do through much of the game and alt-J is more awkward than CTRL-P. Am I missing something? (In the context of TRM qwerty) | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On June 04 2013 09:04 Antylamon wrote: Well as I tried to say before, my Ctrl is where your Windows key should be, so it doesn't affect me much. :I What kind of keyboard are you using? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Setting up expansions takes 1 less keypress: Before: ctrl+P alt +P Now: alt+J (continue holding alt) P I apologize for not being clear. Sometimes I oversimplify things in the quest for brevity. It is a thin line to walk. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Here is my argument for why this line of reasoning is flawed. In order to see why this change is a net positive, consider this simplified thought experiment. Imagine if the only thing one build on a game was one macro hatch/cc. To add the main base into a control group and camera now takes 3 actions buttons instead of 4, and also eliminates a large thumb movement between ctrl and alt. Adding macro hatches / Ccs to control groups takes the same amount of actions, but has the inconvenience of being done with alt. Clearly though, saving an action and making the next one faster is a greater gain than making one action slightly slower is a loss. Now consider that in a real game, one build far more bases than macros. This means that any gain obtained by the previous argument become multiplied. I'll explain this more clearly if it isn't very intelligible right now, but hopefully it is understandable  | ||
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Slashiepie
107 Posts
Btw: i have tried to like and use the center camera on alt, i always end up removing it, it never feels right to have to battle with the camera because it keeps centering itself, and no we don't necessarily always want the camera to center around a building. I won't be using the new cores, because the changes and the time invested relearning has come to a point where the benefits wont make it worth for me, i don't know how others feel about this, but i'm curios as to know if people are actually updating. Other than that nice job and thanks for the efforts.Btw: The Hots Unit Tester makes practicing the core a pain in the ass, because some important keys of the R layout are assigned to functions in the Map, anyone has any ideas? | ||
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Kalma
16 Posts
#IfWinActive ahk_class StarCraft II RWin::RAlt | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On June 04 2013 20:10 Slashiepie wrote: I won't be using the new cores, because the changes and the time invested relearning has come to a point where the benefits wont make it worth for me, i don't know how others feel about this, but i'm curios as to know if people are actually updating. Other than that nice job and thanks for the efforts.I think this is what will happen eventually for most people. I don't think its bad or good, you get used to a certain version of TheCore and then keep it. Pretty sure there are tons of people out there still using 0.3.3. This is why we have the tagging system, that way anyone using version 0.7 or higher can always redownload if they lose their file, or if they think its a better version. I still play D&D 3.5 because it is my favorite version. Maybe I'll play the updated one someday, but for now, I love 3.5 and that's fine | ||
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UnseenAlchemist
8 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On June 05 2013 00:20 UnseenAlchemist wrote: Is it possible to use The core layouts for WoL and Hots campaigns? Yes, it is! A lot of work went into making it compatible with both campaigns. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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UnseenAlchemist
8 Posts
On June 05 2013 00:27 JDub wrote: Yes, it is! A lot of work went into making it compatible with both campaigns. I seem to have unbound keys. Is this normal? Or should I be using Random layout for campaigns? | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On June 04 2013 17:50 Ninjury_J wrote: Some may feel like Jak's description above is inaccurate, in the sense that it does not account for macro hatches/ccs. One argument against this change may look like this: "alt centres on selection AND is harder to press than Ctrl. Thus, even if there are gains associated with adding bases, we lose as much because of macro bases." Here is my argument for why this line of reasoning is flawed. In order to see why this change is a net positive, consider this simplified thought experiment. Imagine if the only thing one build on a game was one macro hatch/cc. To add the main base into a control group and camera now takes 3 actions buttons instead of 4, and also eliminates a large thumb movement between ctrl and alt. Adding macro hatches / Ccs to control groups takes the same amount of actions, but has the inconvenience of being done with alt. Clearly though, saving an action and making the next one faster is a greater gain than making one action slightly slower is a loss. Now consider that in a real game, one build far more bases than macros. This means that any gain obtained by the previous argument become multiplied. I'll explain this more clearly if it isn't very intelligible right now, but hopefully it is understandable I think you have to separate the argument for zerg and terran. While zerg might reset their camera after the hatch starts, terran can set their 6 base cams before the first SCV finishes while holding down alt the whole time. Granted, a few changes could happen in a game, especially on 4 player maps, but I'd guess I average at least 7 to 1 on adding buildings to my macro CG vs. reseting a base cam (e.g. 4+ CCs, 2 ebays, and an armory). Most games, I don't need to reset a base cam. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
QWERTY with a weird Ctrl key, basically. The left arrow key is about 3/4 cms to the right of Ctrl. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On June 05 2013 03:18 UnseenAlchemist wrote: I seem to have unbound keys. Is this normal? Or should I be using Random layout for campaigns? Which layout are you using and which keys are unbound? | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On June 05 2013 04:59 Ninjury_J wrote: Sorry Smack, I'm not following you. I agree we should separate T and Z (P isn't affected since there are no "macro" nexii unless one does something cool with photon overcharge. I'm not sure what your argument is exactly, or what you are trying to conclude. Sorry, hopefully this will clarify (using US QWERTY TRM as an example): With 0.7.0, at the start of a match, I: 1) CTRL-P my CC 2) Hold down ALT 3) Press P 4) Drag scroll to Natural, hit O 5) Repeat for 3rd through 6th bases 6) Release ALT At this point, my base cams are set and it is unlikely I'll ever use ALT again for the rest of the match. However, for the rest of the match, I'll use CTRL-P to add CCs, ebays, and armories (yes, armories are a holdover from 0.6.3) to my P control group. With 0.7.1, there's no argument, that hotkeying my main CC and setting up the cameras is faster. Not having to move the thumb from CTRL to ALT is very nice. However, that advantage only benefits me once in the entire game at a time when I have so much free APM that I can chat with my opponent or at least type "GLFH". The downside with 0.7.1 is that later in the game I'll add to my P control group several times when my APM is much more precious. I'll use ALT-J instead of using CTRL-P. Currently, that's considerably slower and more error prone for me. I'll grant you that will get better with practice. Furthermore, I'll rarely take advantage of having ALT pressed to update my base cam when I add a CC to the P control group. This is because the base cam creation I did at the start of the game is likely to be just fine. Even if that's not the case, a terran will often build CCs away from the expansion and then float, so I'm probably doing ALT-J at a different time than when I update the expansion's base cam. I hope that clears things up, and I hope I don't seem too negative. I've been very happy with the changes from 0.6 to 0.7 on the whole. I just feel this one point might not be optimal for terran. | ||
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UnseenAlchemist
8 Posts
On June 05 2013 05:04 JDub wrote: Which layout are you using and which keys are unbound? I'm using ZRM 0.6.3, the unbound keys are: Barracks: War pigs, Devil dogs, train Spectre, Skibi's angel, Death head, train elite unit. Factory: Spartan company, Siege breakers, outback hunter, sentry bot, Campaign vehicles. Starport: Hel's Angels, Dusk wings. Fleet Beacon: Research Quantum Reactor, Research Bosonic core. Merc compund: Outback Hunter. I only have unbound keys for the Hots campaign. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
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