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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/c7/Ticon.png) Guide: TvP 2 Rax
Tiny, Tiny Protoss Tears
Table of Contents
>Introduction
>Build Order
>Variations and Transitions
>Execution
>Pro Replays, VoDs, and Write-ups
>Q&A
>Acknowledgements
Introduction [Top]
This build is the TvP Reactor-First 2 Rax-- a build that takes a gas and makes Marines out of one rax and Marauders out of another, pushing across the map with concussive shell. It is distinguished by the ability to aggressively engage the standard army of a Protoss 1 gate FE successfully before warpgate finishes, and deal some economic damage. Its strength comes from the early use of Concussive Shells in low-unit-count situations coupled with the strong DPS of early marines. This build is used all the way up to the professional level, typically on maps with short rush distances and/or unramped naturals.
Basically, this opener takes away the traditional map control that a 1 gate FE Protoss can assert against a Terran. Depending on the timing of the scouting probe, this build can look similar to a 1-1-1, which is very traumatizing for the Protoss. Some players like to proxy the second rax, which in addition to the obvious benefits of a proxy attack, makes this build looks a lot like a 1-1-1.
This is not the gasless 2 rax cheese.
Once you've got your army out on the field, you try to use it to pick off scouting ateway units, deny xel'naga towers, and press into the protoss natural. This build can do economic damage, but once his warpgate finishes, things get much more difficult for your attack. This build isn't particularly vulnerable to any allins except perhaps a proxy zealot attack since you're making an early Reactor.
The TvP 2 Rax has countless variations, some getting stim or combat shields first and hitting later, or pulling scvs and not exanding, or adding rax or teching to starport on 1 base. The Build Order I'm presenting is for the most basic version of the 2 Rax, of which most 2 Rax builds are variations or transitions.
Build Order [Top]
10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
13-14 Refinery
15 Barracks [Prime Variant-- earlier scout requires a 2nd Rax after OC instead]
16 Marine (when Barracks Finishes)
17 Orbital Command (when Barracks Finishes)
17 Reactor
17 Supply Depot
Take 1 SCV off gas
17 Tech Lab
19 Supply Depot
Constant Marine/Maruader production, begin Concussive Shells
Move out soon after 1st Marauder finishes.
The reason your 2nd Supply Depot can start at 17 is that your 1st rax is building a reactor, your 2nd rax is building a tech lab, and your CC is transforming into an OC. You're not dumping any supply, so the delayed depot lets you start your 2nd rax more quickly with no adverse effects.
Different people scout at different times. Any time between 13 and like 17 is acceptable. You may need to scout earlier on a big 4P map like TDA, but mostly you just want to make sure the protoss is expanding. If he doesn't expand, you don't push out.
Variations and Transitions [Top]
As far as variations go, you've got a number of options here-- this is a pretty flexible opening. Typically you'll be pushing out with 5 marines, 1 marauder, or if you want to wait for concussive shell to finish before exiting your base, you'll go with 7 marines, 2 marauders.
A common way to make this push substantially stronger is to proxy the techlab rax. It's pretty easy to do, and makes it look like a 1-1-1. Having 2 marauders for the push rather than 1 is a huge advantage since you can concuss 2 units at once. Another version of this push gets stimpack or combat shields in place of the concussive pressure and makes a slightly later, slightly stronger attack. It does not take the 3rd scv off gas. People will often pull 4-8 scvs for tanking, damage, and bunker construction with any variety of 2 rax. You'll see bigger scv pulls sometimes, but not often.
In terms of transitions, you can either 1-base really hard or take an expansion. Assuming you went conc shell first, almost universally you'll be starting stimpack and combat shields (MKP gets CS first, but some players get Stim first). You'll be teching up to medivacs quickly. Usually your Engineering Bay is gonna be pretty late, starting after your Starport starts, just because of how important medivacs are when you have a big bio army with an early stim. Slow upgrading is a downside of this build, but you'll be able to hit pretty hard with a medivac timing to follow up.
Expand: Timings get very funky and varied here depending on how many SCVs you pulled and how much mining time and workers you lost. Assuming you expand before anything else, here's the range of timings I've seen from pro replays:
CC: 6:30 to 7:00
2nd Refinery: 7:00 to 7:30
Factory: 7:30 to 8:00
CS or Stim: ~7:00 (1:00 to 1:30 earlier if you make marines from TL rax or keep 3 on gas)
Engineering Bay: 10:00
Additional Barracks: 10:00
All In: Some players, instead of expanding, forgo the CC altogether, taking a second gas and adding additional barracks on 1 base, teching up to medivacs for a powerful follow-up all-in. See Illusion vs Ddoro for an example. Here are the timings Illusion used for his follow-up:
Combat Shields: ~6:00
Stimpack: ~7:30
2nd Refinery: 8:00
Factory: 8:00
+2 Rax: 8:00
Depending on how many scvs you pull, how many bunkers you make, and how much damage you deal, your own follow-up will be distinct and could vary from game to game, but almost universally you tech up to starport off your 2 rax, then add on more rax and an engineering bay.
Execution [Top]
I'm not really sure this goes in the "Execution" section but you'll notice that pros only use this build on specific maps: Metalopolis, Tal'Darim Altar, Dual Sight, Korhal Compound, etc. Sometimes you'll see it on other maps, but basically this is a build that's supposed to be used on maps with wide/unramped nats. First off, it can defend a wide/unramped nat WAY better than a 1 rax FE could, since it gets early marauders, shells, and stim. Secondly, it's pretty hard to attack into ramped nats against Protoss. TDA is sorta not ramped, and notably the main is unramped, making this build good on it. Bear in mind that your mileage may vary, and this build operates best on unramped nat maps.
This build is basically the safest expanding Terran build. Even without perfect scouting you're easily safe from any sort of 1 base Protoss play. Against serious 1-basers with VRs or Immortals, you'll need to make bunkers, of course, and turrets for DTs and vikings for Colossus rush. You'll have plenty of units and marines, though, and you can get a quick combat shields if you need it. The danger against 1 base Protoss isn't that they kill you with an all-in, it's that you might move out and get killed.
Make sure to scout your opponent's gas count. If he's on 1 gas, you're almost certain he's doing a 1 gate FE. If he's on 2 gas, things get more dangerous. If his expo isn't up on time, you should just stay in your base and tech up or take an in-base expansion, and toss up a bunker. Some Protosses will respond to a 2 rax by 3-gating, which can actually crush you if he catches you out on the map.
One thing that the pros all do is take their first marine and stand it at the top of their nat ramp to ward away scouts. If there's no nat ramp they stay in the main, but typically you don't want your second rax to get scouted. Occasionally (see Ddoro vs Heart) an unscouted or misinterpreted 2 Rax gets build order win. If a Protoss player thinks for sure you're 1-1-1ing, he may make his Robo before his 2nd and 3rd gates, and then he'll have like 3 gateway units when you push. Easy win. Really, though, you want to not tip your hand until you have to-- stand your marines at the top of the ramp to deny the scout, and try to hide your second barracks.
In terms of the fight itself, it's pretty typical terran kiting. Remember that you don't have medivacs, and your adversary has shields that can regen, so you want to fight him in one go if you can. If you want to put your opponent on the clock and force him to engage for whatever reason, starting a bunker or two in range of his nexus will force him to come out and fight you. Once his warpgate finishes, unless you have a pretty big advantage and he's like pulling hella probes and losing them, it's usually a good idea to bail. If you have a unit advantage, though, keep on fighting, but remember how strong warpgate is at that moment in the game.
Pro Replays, VoDs, and Write-ups [Top]
MKP vs JYP on Tal'Darim Altar [IPL4] ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/dl.gif) ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/6/6d/YouTube_red.png)
+ Show Spoiler +DescriptionMKP pulls 8 scvs with his push. He starts his second gas and CC at about 7:00, and combat shields at about 7:30, transitioning into marine production only briefly. He sends his scvs home after the successful bunker rush that destroys JYP's 15 Nexus. He goes for a Factory as his CC finishes. Starport+Reactor starts at 9:30, Stim and Engineering Bay at 10:00 along with a 3rd rax. He ultimately holds JYP's followup of unupgraded warpgate pressure and DT tech, and pushes out with stimpack and 4 medivac tow in.
Replayhttp://drop.sc/166716
VoD
Day[9] Daily #416 - MarineKing vs WhiteRa
+ Show Spoiler +
Polt vs MC on Tal'Darim Altar [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +DescriptionPolt goes for Stimpack first. He pushes out at 6:55 with his marines first and his marauders behind to hide them. He starts his CC at 7:00. Factory at 7:50, as well as marine shields. He attacks with his Stimpack and kills a lot of probes as well as the nexus. Starport starts at 9:00. At his point MC is dead, it just takes some time to wrap things up. This sort of stim pressure shows a slightly later timing that's possible with this build. Bear in mind that Polt has no Concussive shell, and his attack hits after warpgate research is completed.
Replayhttp://drop.sc/166627
VoD
Illusion vs JPEG on Cloud Kingdom [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +DescriptionIllusion gets scouted by a probe, so he builds his second rax behind his natural to hide it. He pushes out as his 2nd marauder pops after confirming a 1 Gate FE, pulling 1 scv. Combat shields at 6:00. The protoss scouts the 2nd rax at this point. He fights his way past some misplaced FFs into the protoss nat, and proceeds to win with this pressure. Bunker doesn't come up but ultimately all the protoss units die. Factory at 7:30. Stimpack and second Refinery at 8:00. 3rd barracks at 8:00, 4th barracks at 8:15-- Illusion is all in. Wins with his initial push.
Replayhttp://drop.sc/167009
VoD
Skyda vs Ldavid19 on Tal'Darim Altar [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +Descriptionldavid19 is playing as "ClashPanther" and skyda is playing as "KZHY" in this game, according to IPL's replay naming conventions. I will refer to the players by their IPL names. ldavid19 quickly scouts a 15 Nexus. His 2nd barracks is proxied/hidden in his natural. He pushes out with his first marauder, and pulls 2 scvs. His push is scouted leaving the natural. CC at 5:55. He engages at 6:00 and starts bunkers at 6:15. No bunkers get up but he gets some probes. 3rd Rax, Factory, and Stim all at 7:15. 2nd Gas starts at 8:20 along with Starport and Reactor. 3rd Gas at 8:45. He stays out on the map with his units, holding the important xel'naga tower. Combat Shields and Engineering Bay at 10:00. +1 starts at 10:45. He pushes with his scout factory and 2 medivacs at 10:55, taking down the nat and winning.
Replayhttp://drop.sc/163065
VoD
CaliberLighT vs ELeven on Antiga Shipyard [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +DescriptionNo scv scout from ELeven. His marine scouts a 1 gate FE, CaliberLighT scouts the 2 rax. ELeven loses a marine on the map, then pushes out with his first Marauder. No scv pulls. Stim starts at 5:45, CC at 6:40. Concussive pressure deals no damage. Factory and 2nd gas at 7:00. Starport+Reactor at 8:00. Combat Shields at 8:55. Engineering Bay at 9:30. +1 and 2 rax at 10:45. ELeven pushes out and engages at 12:00 with his first 2 medivacs, overwhelming the gateway defense.
Replayhttp://drop.sc/163100
Ddoro vs Heart on Entombed Valley [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +DescriptionThe probe scout sees the gas but not the 2nd rax. Heart scouts a 1 gate FE. He pushes out with 2nd marauder. 5:40 stimpack, 6:30 CC. He walks into DDoro's Nat, and Ddoro went for a Robo before 2nd and 3rd Gate, and as a result has not enough units-- he GGs immediately. Replayhttp://drop.sc/162222
Inori vs Heart on Metalopolis [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +
MKP vs SaSe on Dual Sight [IPL4]
+ Show Spoiler +
Q&A [Top]
Q: Why did you write this guide?
A: Well, there isn't a solid guide on this build, and the Liquipedia article wasn't up to date. When I first wanted to learn this build a couple months ago I had to basically look for pro replays and figure it out on my own. I figured I'd make it easier for you guys.
Q: Why no replays of yourself executing this build?
A: I've done this build a bunch, but I'm a only a mid master Terran. My execution is sloppy, my macro slips, and I generally make dumb mistakes. It's much better to learn from MKP, Heart, and Polt. To be accurate, my guide must be written based on their play, not my own. If you have any replays of pros executing this build, PM me and they'll be added.
Q: Blazinghand, haven't you written some other guides here on TL?
A: Why yes, yes I have! I've written [G] Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ, [G] TvP 1 Rax Concussive FE, and [G] How to Defend Against Worker Rush. Check them out if they interest you!
Q: Is there a reason for the 17 OC?
A: This is what MKP does, and I think he does it for the stronger economy. You see some people going for a 15-worker OC sometimes, but the 17 OC means you have 16 workers and 1 marine building, and doesn't cut workers (whereas an OC with 15 workers has to briefly cut workers to start the OC). It's considered more economical.
Q: How different is this build from the original "Polt TvP 2rax"? (link)
A: This is basically the same build order. However, that was a discussion thread, whereas this is a guide; I've written extensively on this build and included replays in the latest patch as well as all the major variations and transitions.
Acknowledgements [Top]
I'd like to thank VaderSeven for helping me iron out this build, spamming practice games with me and playing in YABOT. Thanks to NrGMonk for suggesting this topic for my next guide. I'd also like to thank wo1fwood for his article on TL BBCode (link)-- his knowledge helped me format this post.
Hope you enjoy the build!
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Thanks very much for this, great guide. Keep up the good work!
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Same build, more extensive guide with replays in the latest patch as well as all the major variations and transitions.
On May 31 2012 21:59 Soyuz wrote:
Also, is there a reason for a 17 OC?
This is what MKP does, and I think he does it for the stronger economy. You see some people going for a 15-worker OC sometimes, but the 17 OC means you have 16 workers and 1 marine building, and doesn't cut workers (whereas an OC with 15 workers has to briefly cut workers to star the OC). It's considered more economical.
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very well written and structured should be refered to as a model how to write the guide, on the build itself a good one to have in the arsenal
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I read just a part of the guide, but I'm gonna suggest a slight tweak.
It is about taste:
10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
13 Refinery (3 on gas when finished at 16) [but also 14 gas is optimal]
15 oc
16 Marine (when Barracks Finishes)
16 rax
17 Reactor + depot
The protoss won't be able to scout your second rax 
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Hm you know what, I think there CAN be a 14 gas instead of a 13 gas. Typically the 13 gas is right at the end of the 13 supply, but some people make it with their 14th worker as it comes out. I'll update the BO to reflect this.
In terms of actually changing around the build order, if someone can find me a replay of MKP or Polt executing a different version, I'll include it in the guide. This is not a build order I invented, so I'm not really sure what changing stuff around in it would do for its viability.
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On May 31 2012 22:01 Blazinghand wrote:Same build, more extensive guide with replays in the latest patch as well as all the major variations and transitions. This is what MKP does, and I think he does it for the stronger economy. You see some people going for a 15-worker OC sometimes, but the 17 OC means you have 16 workers and 1 marine building, and doesn't cut workers (whereas an OC with 15 workers has to briefly cut workers to star the OC). It's considered more economical.
Ah, thanks. I never really considered that, I always thought that was a slight mistake.
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This build is basically the safest expanding Terran build. Assuming you scout, you're easily safe from any sort of 1 base Protoss play.
I take issue with this statement, just a little bit. I've never seen any particular reasons why the 1-rax FE isn't safer AND more economical, as long as that 'assuming you scout' is still in effect. There's no direct build order counter to 1-rax FE in TvP, and the timing pushes hit very, very hard.
In terms of the guide, I like the thoroughness of it. I think even more attention should be drawn to the fact that almost the instant warpgate comes on line, you have to get out of there, drop Bunkers, and prepare everything perfectly, because the Stalker/Sentry follow-up counterswing to a 2-rax is MURDER to stop.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 31 2012 22:10 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +This build is basically the safest expanding Terran build. Assuming you scout, you're easily safe from any sort of 1 base Protoss play. I take issue with this statement, just a little bit. I've never seen any particular reasons why the 1-rax FE isn't safer AND more economical, as long as that 'assuming you scout' is still in effect. There's no direct build order counter to 1-rax FE in TvP, and the timing pushes hit very, very hard.
There's a difference between being safe, and being easily safe. Defending cheese with a 2 Rax is pretty effortless, for reasons I detail in the rest of that paragraph. I never imply that 1 Rax FE is somehow unsafe, but the 2 Rax provides you with a ton of units and access to a tech lab, making it basically the safest build. You have room for errors. Whereas a 1 Rax FE could, for example, lose to a VR all-in pretty easily, even if you scout his main and know that something's up, a 2 Rax will have a butt ton of marines and some marauders to deal with the land units.
On May 31 2012 22:10 Jazzman88 wrote:
In terms of the guide, I like the thoroughness of it. I think even more attention should be drawn to the fact that almost the instant warpgate comes on line, you have to get out of there, drop Bunkers, and prepare everything perfectly, because the Stalker/Sentry follow-up counterswing to a 2-rax is MURDER to stop.
Thanks! I don't think that instant warpgate comes on line, you have to bail. If you take a look at the game between MKP and JYP, for example, even after WG is finished, MKP is hanging out in JYP's nat for no reason other than to prevent him from re-expanding. If you deal enough damage you can basically chill out wherever. If you don't deal much damage though, yeah, you gotta bail.
EDIT: I mean, really, it's situational. You gotta judge.
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Myself I call this build "Korean 2 rax" to not confuse it with a standard gasless 2 rax build.
This is a nice build to have in your arsenal, but a warning finger to most players: This build requires a certain amount of control. You can not just 1a your units in and expect results unless your opponent went for a specifically greedy build. It is a build that is generally employed by players such as MKP and Polt because they have the control required to deal the damage required and then to proceed into a macro game. This is the reason why you see few foreigners doing it (and why I call it korean 2 rax)
Day9 did a daily on this build and showcased a game where the terran player straight out won against White-Ra in a dominating fashion. It was a really poor replay to showcase, because White-Ra did everything wrong there. In fact, this build very rarely ends the game, unless the protoss player simply leaves because you managed to kill his expand, not realising that you are still on one base.
In my humble experience (1200 highmaster terran EU), you will only deal game-winning damage if the opponent did something greedy, such as not throwing down the standard three gateways after nexus or not chronoboosting the warpgate research at least 3 times. Unfortunatly, this is not the case most of the time. Generally, when I deploy this build, the protoss retreats up his ramp and lets me hammer away at the shield on the nexus until his warpgate research finishes (6:30~). Then he proceeds to go down and chase me away.
Nevertheless, despite all this, let me emphasize that this is not a bad build. You will not kill the nexus most of the time, but you will create a situation where you can possibly dictate the pace of the game. The protoss player will, after chasing you away, be forced to keep producing units (unless this is shakuras, where I don't recommend doing this build unless you followup with an all in, more on that in a second) which is not something a protoss player generally want. If you are unfamiliar with the workings of current PvT, the protoss player wants to get away with as few units as possible until he achieves his tech goal - generally colossus or templars. By doing a build such as this one, his gameplan is likely to change and you will continuely be able to threaten his front, forcing him to produce more units than he would really prefer.
This should be your mindset. Do not try to end the game and mindlessly throw away the units you have because then you are truly behind. Instead, you are to force units out of him and trade favourly until your medivacs are out when you can, hopefully, crush him.
An all-in that I often do is to throw up a second gas semi-early and skip a marauder for a really early factory (5 min~) and tech to 8 min medivacs. If you traded favourably at the front, the addition of 8 min medivacs along with stim instead of combatshield will definitely end the game in your favour.
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On May 31 2012 22:06 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm you know what, I think there CAN be a 14 gas instead of a 13 gas. Typically the 13 gas is right at the end of the 13 supply, but some people make it with their 14th worker as it comes out. I'll update the BO to reflect this.
In terms of actually changing around the build order, if someone can find me a replay of MKP or Polt executing a different version, I'll include it in the guide. This is not a build order I invented, so I'm not really sure what changing stuff around in it would do for its viability.
Yes, 14 gas works just fine but the economical difference is minor. You can, if you wanna be sneaky, actually throw up a supply at 13 food to block the ramp and then the refinery. You will delay your timing by mere seconds but he will have no way of knowing that you built a gas (he will expect gasless exp and therefore, hopefully, not build gateway #2 and #3).
I have been experimenting abit with the idea that you actually can build 2 rax and a gas BEFORE orbital and still not delay it at all, if you just do a 16 (17 with rin) orbital instead of 15 (16 with rin). However, I haven't really managed to create a stronger build, it amounts to exactly the same pretty much and you don't really gain anything on it, just a tighter build.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 31 2012 22:32 vBr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 22:06 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm you know what, I think there CAN be a 14 gas instead of a 13 gas. Typically the 13 gas is right at the end of the 13 supply, but some people make it with their 14th worker as it comes out. I'll update the BO to reflect this.
In terms of actually changing around the build order, if someone can find me a replay of MKP or Polt executing a different version, I'll include it in the guide. This is not a build order I invented, so I'm not really sure what changing stuff around in it would do for its viability. Yes, 14 gas works just fine but the economical difference is minor. You can, if you wanna be sneaky, actually throw up a supply at 13 food to block the ramp and then the refinery. You will delay your timing by mere seconds but he will have no way of knowing that you built a gas (he will expect gasless exp and therefore, hopefully, not build gateway #2 and #3). I have been experimenting abit with the idea that you actually can build 2 rax and a gas BEFORE orbital and still not delay it at all, if you just do a 16 (17 with rin) orbital instead of 15 (16 with rin). However, I haven't really managed to create a stronger build, it amounts to exactly the same pretty much and you don't really gain anything on it, just a tighter build.
Did you read the guide? You should check out the build order I have listed in the guide, and download the first replay, MKP vs JYP. The BO is 2 rax and a gas before Orbital without delay, just as you proposition here.
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On May 31 2012 22:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 22:32 vBr wrote:On May 31 2012 22:06 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm you know what, I think there CAN be a 14 gas instead of a 13 gas. Typically the 13 gas is right at the end of the 13 supply, but some people make it with their 14th worker as it comes out. I'll update the BO to reflect this.
In terms of actually changing around the build order, if someone can find me a replay of MKP or Polt executing a different version, I'll include it in the guide. This is not a build order I invented, so I'm not really sure what changing stuff around in it would do for its viability. Yes, 14 gas works just fine but the economical difference is minor. You can, if you wanna be sneaky, actually throw up a supply at 13 food to block the ramp and then the refinery. You will delay your timing by mere seconds but he will have no way of knowing that you built a gas (he will expect gasless exp and therefore, hopefully, not build gateway #2 and #3). I have been experimenting abit with the idea that you actually can build 2 rax and a gas BEFORE orbital and still not delay it at all, if you just do a 16 (17 with rin) orbital instead of 15 (16 with rin). However, I haven't really managed to create a stronger build, it amounts to exactly the same pretty much and you don't really gain anything on it, just a tighter build. Did you read the guide? You should check out the build order I have listed in the guide, and download the first replay, MKP vs JYP. The BO is 2 rax and a gas before Orbital without delay, just as you proposition here.
Ah yes, clearly strategies have evoled without my help and behind my back as well. My bad.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Np man that's just proof it was good advice!
EDIT: do feel free to check out the other parts of my guide on variations, transitions, and execution, and offer any advice you may have.
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On May 31 2012 22:43 Blazinghand wrote:
Np man that's just proof it was good advice!
EDIT: do feel free to check out the other parts of my guide on variations, transitions, and execution, and offer any advice you may have.
Scroll-up! I think an important part that you might want to add is the mentality. This isn't a strategy that should win you the game (although naturally it can). Instead it is a cool way for you to take control of the game and forcing the protoss out of his natural habitat (sitting behind 4 sentries on a ramp that you can't possibly take regardless of how many units you have).
Other than that, it's an accurate guide. I have once seen someone do this as an opener and follow it up with tanks, like you implied, and I think that it's possibly something that could be looked upon. This build attacks around 5:30-6:00 and teching to tanks behind it might allow a 9 min siege push with stim.
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On May 31 2012 21:49 Blazinghand wrote:
Q: Is there a reason for the 17 OC?
A: This is what MKP does, and I think he does it for the stronger economy. You see some people going for a 15-worker OC sometimes, but the 17 OC means you have 16 workers and 1 marine building, and doesn't cut workers (whereas an OC with 15 workers has to briefly cut workers to start the OC). It's considered more economical.
I was experimenting with 2 rax lately, and found I could only ever get the first marauder at 5:15, whereas Polt's was always out at 5:00. It turns out that he got his out earlier because of two things:
Getting the 15 (/16) OC instead of 17 OC - that way the 2nd barracks is quite a bit earlier.
Getting the second supply depot after the first SCV from the orbital command - it lines up perfectly with the reactor finishing, which is exactly when you need the supply.
Anyway, just to point out that there's also an advantage to preferring the earlier OC.
EDIT: Oh wait, you're talking about the MKP 2 racks before OC... MKP's first marauder comes out at 4:30 (+ 3 marines instead of 5).
I consider Polt's version to be more standard (it's the one Illusion does too, I think), but maybe that's just because I've never seen anyone except MKP do 2 racks before OC version.
The replays I used to learn these 2 variations were Polt vs Bling on Cloud Kingdom (Winter Assembly, Group H), and MKP vs Parting on Tal'Darim Altar (Winter Arena, Winners 4).
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You sir, are a BAWSS. Thanks for this guide!
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
EDIT-- Nvm, misunderstood an above post.
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Nice OP, the MKP variant has been lacking a guide.
For the tosses, I'd like to reiterate from other discussions and posters: This build is scouted by seeing a gas and a lack of a second depot, you don't really need to see the second rax.
Also, I think the 1 rax gasless FE is perfectly safe against cheese with scouting and bunkers (also more , especially marine heavy variants.
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It's not very good on large maps now unfortunately
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It's a really solid build but you do need good control for it.
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very well organized and nice looking
well done, and thanks for making!
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I think you need to put emphasis to the user that if your 2rax does not do sufficient damage vs a nex first or 1gate FE, you are significantly far behind (I wouldn't quite call it an allin). For example, if you move in to attack, put on a little bit of pressure, but decide to retreat (and you don't lose any units but he doesn't either, maybe some pulled probes), then you're significantly behind. Of course, this never happens, you'll always try and make something work (I can't imagine where you'd ever retreat without losing units), but just saying that the build needs to get something accomplished. I've had games before where I'm able to handedly stop a 2rax without losing almost anything (maybe we traded evenly on rax vs gateway units and I lost 2-3 probes) and the other player simply GG'd out.
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On June 01 2012 01:47 Chaggi wrote:
It's a really solid build but you do need good control for it.
So solid that the earliest your expo goes up is when his is already complete. You only need to kill ~8 probes to pull even, but hey there's a chance your opponent is terrible and you just win the game.
This build is so dated and completely unviable on some maps. Almost every 1gate FE variant holds this convincingly (the ones that don't have died away) and it's basically a free win when you do hold it.
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On June 01 2012 02:04 Sated wrote:
I'm pretty sure that I once heard Axslav say on his stream that losing to a 2rax opening is one of the most embarrassing things that can happen in a PvT. That said, I open 2gate FE in PvT because I am scared of this build :3
Definitely a good build to learn for lower-level Terran players, but I think that it is a bit of a coin-flip against better opponent's because you are relying on them being too greedy (which you can't really scout) or botching their control (which is pure luck).
EDIT:
This guide is really well-written, by the way. Terran and Zerg players definitely need more people willing to write guides; Protoss has an abundance of awesome guide-writers at the moment and T/Z don't seem to have as many!
Losing to a pressure build is always embarrassing if it happens. This build isn't designed to kill, but to delay the expansion or deny mining for a while. If the terran loses all of his units during the pressure, that is also pretty embarrassing. On some of the smaller maps, this build shows up at my door step before I have enough to deal with it if I went 1 gate FE.
But it is one of those builds where terran needs to know when to go home and how to macro behind the pressure. It is harder than 1 rax FE because you are being agressive while macroing. The protoss can catch that tiny army with FFs if the terran is not ready to pull back.
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This is definitely one of the builds that every Terran player should master
Great guide, I really appreciated the map selection part, since I haven't been sure which maps to use this build on with the current map pool
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This is still a good build. Here are some other good things to think about when doing this push, which is from an old post I made on this push months ago (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312554).
However I push with 2 marauders.
2 rax notes
Hide your first marauder from the ramp.
Concussive will be done around the time of the second marauder, dont forget STIM!
The 2 scvs joining the fight can be sent out a little bit after the main army pushes out.
Push with marines up front and marauders out of vision up to the watch tower. If the protoss sees the marauders he will know exactly whats coming and start chronoboosting his gateways. Try to get the stalker at the watch tower to chase your marines back towards your marauders, catch them with concussive!
DO NOT forget to start your expansion while you are pushing the protoss, even a short delay on this will put you far behind. Leave an idle scv at natural or in main to quickly build it during fighting.
This guide needs to include how you react to protoss openings, because not pushing just because the protoss is on 1 base is wrong, as you then miss a timing to punish one base void ray, stalker, collosus, or DT.
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On June 01 2012 02:24 ShaneFeit wrote:
This is still a good build. Here are some other good things to think about when doing this push, which is from an old post I made on this push months ago (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312554).
However I push with 2 marauders.
2 rax notes
Hide your first marauder from the ramp.
Concussive will be done around the time of the second marauder, dont forget STIM!
The 2 scvs joining the fight can be sent out a little bit after the main army pushes out.
Push with marines up front and marauders out of vision up to the watch tower. If the protoss sees the marauders he will know exactly whats coming and start chronoboosting his gateways. Try to get the stalker at the watch tower to chase your marines back towards your marauders, catch them with concussive!
DO NOT forget to start your expansion while you are pushing the protoss, even a short delay on this will put you far behind. Leave an idle scv at natural or in main to quickly build it during fighting.
This guide needs to include how you react to protoss openings, because not pushing just because the protoss is on 1 base is wrong, as you then miss a timing to punish one base void ray, stalker, collosus, or DT.
These are good tips and should be added, specificlly the part about hiding the marauder. The marauder is going to send the protoss right into "oh shit mode", which could include chrono boost or cutting probes to get out a few extra units. Although you want that, it is far more effective if it happens when you are on his doorstep.
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This is like, the cleanest, most concise guide on TL. All other guides should follow this format imo
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I thank you a thousand times for this. Really thank you
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Thanks for the guide. Interesting how MKP gets 17 OC. Never thought or saw that before o_O
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A great guide to a not-so great build.
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On June 01 2012 06:40 ChoboDane wrote:
A great guide to a not-so great build.
It can be a good idea to use this build if you know/think your opponent is going with a greedy expansion build. You can punish them with this. So use it everygame? Probably not. But occasionally, sure. (Like in BoX)
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On June 01 2012 07:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 06:40 ChoboDane wrote:
A great guide to a not-so great build. It can be a good idea to use this build if you know/think your opponent is going with a greedy expansion build. You can punish them with this. So use it everygame? Probably not. But occasionally, sure. (Like in BoX)
indeed this probly not be a standard build but would be good to have in the arsenal
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This is actually one of my favorite builds since most tosses go 1 gate FE anyways.
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2rax is still good, but it's not very well suited to the current map pool, all the current maps are made to support FFE in PvZ, so are generally very closed, additionally most of them have reasonably long rush distances.
Still something you should learn, but not really standard at the moment. Great guide, good to see you're using anchors instead of spoiler tags to break up the guide!
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although the 2nd rax is too early to be reactionary, and the gas surely is, i think 2 rax is theoretically a good reactionary play to scouting no 2nd gas (4 gate or 1 gate FE). easily defend one, damage another. too bad the way the timings work, there is absolutely no way to do this...
this build is good for dictating the pace of the game nad that alone gives it merit, although vs good P you will end up economically behind, your tech is ahead and there are so many followups that P may not prepare properly for.
heres the key for me: you tech and pressure, forcing P to stay low-tech+mass units. so you force them to delay their tech further while having a lot of gas for fast medivacs, upgrades, etc.
i feel like its not good vs parting style play (2 base, heavy gate -> archives/storm)
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This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
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Personally I do a hyper aggressive 3 rax version of this with a +1 and stim timing at 9:30. It got me into Masters. The key difference is that I build a reaper and during the main assault on the exp i send him to the main workers. A +1 reaper 2-shots probes - its deadly beyond belief! I have racked up double digit kills quite a few times. At the very least it will distract from your main assault OR he goes unnoticed and KILLS!!!
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On May 31 2012 22:27 vBr wrote:
Myself I call this build "Korean 2 rax" to not confuse it with a standard gasless 2 rax build.
This is a nice build to have in your arsenal, but a warning finger to most players: This build requires a certain amount of control. You can not just 1a your units in and expect results unless your opponent went for a specifically greedy build. It is a build that is generally employed by players such as MKP and Polt because they have the control required to deal the damage required and then to proceed into a macro game. This is the reason why you see few foreigners doing it (and why I call it korean 2 rax)
Day9 did a daily on this build and showcased a game where the terran player straight out won against White-Ra in a dominating fashion. It was a really poor replay to showcase, because White-Ra did everything wrong there. In fact, this build very rarely ends the game, unless the protoss player simply leaves because you managed to kill his expand, not realising that you are still on one base.
In my humble experience (1200 highmaster terran EU), you will only deal game-winning damage if the opponent did something greedy, such as not throwing down the standard three gateways after nexus or not chronoboosting the warpgate research at least 3 times. Unfortunatly, this is not the case most of the time. Generally, when I deploy this build, the protoss retreats up his ramp and lets me hammer away at the shield on the nexus until his warpgate research finishes (6:30~). Then he proceeds to go down and chase me away.
Nevertheless, despite all this, let me emphasize that this is not a bad build. You will not kill the nexus most of the time, but you will create a situation where you can possibly dictate the pace of the game. The protoss player will, after chasing you away, be forced to keep producing units (unless this is shakuras, where I don't recommend doing this build unless you followup with an all in, more on that in a second) which is not something a protoss player generally want. If you are unfamiliar with the workings of current PvT, the protoss player wants to get away with as few units as possible until he achieves his tech goal - generally colossus or templars. By doing a build such as this one, his gameplan is likely to change and you will continuely be able to threaten his front, forcing him to produce more units than he would really prefer.
This should be your mindset. Do not try to end the game and mindlessly throw away the units you have because then you are truly behind. Instead, you are to force units out of him and trade favourly until your medivacs are out when you can, hopefully, crush him.
An all-in that I often do is to throw up a second gas semi-early and skip a marauder for a really early factory (5 min~) and tech to 8 min medivacs. If you traded favourably at the front, the addition of 8 min medivacs along with stim instead of combatshield will definitely end the game in your favour.
Completely agree.
I'd like to add that if your opponent doesn't scout at all, I think it's a good build, but otherwise your really just hoping your opponent fucks up (in my experience).
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i fined getting combat shield before stim is better, always. stim lets be aggressive which you wont be doing again till medivacs come out. Combat shield comes about faster, which can come out in time to help with the pressure, stim can't. Also combat shield is better against sustained pressure at ur nat which comes very often as allot of protoses will attempt a large counter push after ur early aggression ends.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 01 2012 09:31 Dingobloo wrote:
2rax is still good, but it's not very well suited to the current map pool, all the current maps are made to support FFE in PvZ, so are generally very closed, additionally most of them have reasonably long rush distances.
Still something you should learn, but not really standard at the moment. Great guide, good to see you're using anchors instead of spoiler tags to break up the guide!
Yeah I mean of the current ladder map pool these are the maps I 2 Rax on when laddering: Korhal Compound, Metalopolis, and Tal'Darim Altar. It's usable on other maps, but KC, Metal, and TDA are all unramped-nat or semi-unramped-nat maps. TDA in particular is awesome because there's no ramp into the main-- you can do some serious damage.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Oh wow, that's a really great resource. I added a link and embedded Day9's youtube VoDs as well. Watching the daily presently :3
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On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums?
most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard.
I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours.
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[QUOTE]On June 01 2012 10:44 aintthatfunny wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 31 2012 22:27 vBr wrote:
Myself I call this build "Korean 2 rax" to not confuse it with a standard gasless 2 rax build.
This is a nice build to have in your arsenal, but a warning finger to most players: This build requires a certain amount of control. You can not just 1a your units in and expect results unless your opponent went for a specifically greedy build. It is a build that is generally employed by players such as MKP and Polt because they have the control required to deal the damage required and then to proceed into a macro game. This is the reason why you see few foreigners doing it (and why I call it korean 2 rax)
Day9 did a daily on this build and showcased a game where the terran player straight out won against White-Ra in a dominating fashion. It was a really poor replay to showcase, because White-Ra did everything wrong there. In fact, this build very rarely ends the game, unless the protoss player simply leaves because you managed to kill his expand, not realising that you are still on one base.
In my humble experience (1200 highmaster terran EU), you will only deal game-winning damage if the opponent did something greedy, such as not throwing down the standard three gateways after nexus or not chronoboosting the warpgate research at least 3 times. Unfortunatly, this is not the case most of the time. Generally, when I deploy this build, the protoss retreats up his ramp and lets me hammer away at the shield on the nexus until his warpgate research finishes (6:30~). Then he proceeds to go down and chase me away.
Nevertheless, despite all this, let me emphasize that this is not a bad build. You will not kill the nexus most of the time, but you will create a situation where you can possibly dictate the pace of the game. The protoss player will, after chasing you away, be forced to keep producing units (unless this is shakuras, where I don't recommend doing this build unless you followup with an all in, more on that in a second) which is not something a protoss player generally want. If you are unfamiliar with the workings of current PvT, the protoss player wants to get away with as few units as possible until he achieves his tech goal - generally colossus or templars. By doing a build such as this one, his gameplan is likely to change and you will continuely be able to threaten his front, forcing him to produce more units than he would really prefer.
This should be your mindset. Do not try to end the game and mindlessly throw away the units you have because then you are truly behind. Instead, you are to force units out of him and trade favourly until your medivacs are out when you can, hopefully, crush him.
An all-in that I often do is to throw up a second gas semi-early and skip a marauder for a really early factory (5 min~) and tech to 8 min medivacs. If you traded favourably at the front, the addition of 8 min medivacs along with stim instead of combatshield will definitely end the game in your favour.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you if the protoss isn't playing a gateway pressure style (a la parting). If they are playing that style and hold this without economic damage, you are SO boned as his 2 base production will be able to a move up your ramp more likely than not.
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i'm actually surprised people still do this,
zealot, stalker nexus, sentry
gateway gateway + 2nd gas
bio moves across the map, protoss warps in 3 stalkers and wins the game instantly because you can't have more units off 2 rax. idk i really dislike this build vs good protoss and i think the only way to make it good is to pull many workers and bunker rush the protoss
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On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours.
Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily).
This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing).
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On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
Based on what? I'm sorry but this is just not true. You need to provide further evidence with such a statement. Polt does this regularly and so does MKP and their win percentage from the opening is probably not even 15%. Myself? I stopped doing it because I rarely won a game that I opened this way. I do not claim to have the control that Polt or any korean has, which is why I stopped doing it, but I am a highmaster terran player who regularly plays GM players. Basically, the only games I straight-out won were games where the opponent did not play standard 1 gate exp.
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On June 02 2012 06:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours. Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily). This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing).
Every 2 rax hits before warpgate is done, its fine. Let him hammer at the nexus, let it drop some shield, maybe half its health. Then go down and clean up.
Bringing scvs are good but bunker will NOT (repeat: NOT) finish intime. Bunker will be at most 50% done when your first warpin has happened.
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On June 02 2012 06:08 McTeazy wrote:
I agree with you if the protoss isn't playing a gateway pressure style (a la parting). If they are playing that style and hold this without economic damage, you are SO boned as his 2 base production will be able to a move up your ramp more likely than not.
Nice quote. And this is, unfortunatly, true.
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On June 02 2012 07:39 vBr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours. Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily). This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing). Every 2 rax hits before warpgate is done, its fine. Let him hammer at the nexus, let it drop some shield, maybe half its health. Then go down and clean up. Bringing scvs are good but bunker will NOT (repeat: NOT) finish intime. Bunker will be at most 50% done when your first warpin has happened.
The protoss won't have enough units with just one warp in. The usual scenario is pre-warpin they have 3 units, usually a zealot, stalker, and sentry. Assuming they have 4 gates, by the time warpin finishes they'll probably have 2 zealots, 1 sentry, and 4 stalkers (if they didn't have a sentry at the start, you can push inside main and kill some units/pressure probes and cause general havoc/damage). At that point, terran usually has at least 3 marauders and 8-9 marines, which is easily enough to beat that. So, protoss has to wait longer, and by that point the bunker is done.
[Edit] A good 2rax push should also take advantage of positioning in the natural, usually, both bunker and units would be placed in a good concave around the base of the ramp to take advantage of the superior positioning/the fact that protoss is being forced to come out to the terran.
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I really like using this build on maps where I feel like a 1rax FE is vulnerable. If you screw up the initial engagement against a protoss expand you are very far behind, but on the plus side you are far less vulnerable to allins if you choose this build. This is definitely a good build to know for smaller maps.
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I think I'm one of the only ones that just gets a second gate, doesn't chrono any warpgate at all, and uses it all on my gateways instead, and manages to crush 2rax every single time without any probe drills and engaging IMMEDIATELY. Works far better with a Nex first admittedly, but still works regardless.
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when it comes to these types of rush-builds every second seems to count, MKP many times don't even scout on 2 player maps when he does the 2 rax so that his rush hits just a bit faster. Also I'd like to see scv's pulled to bunker up and force down the natural.
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On June 02 2012 07:56 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 07:39 vBr wrote:On June 02 2012 06:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours. Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily). This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing). Every 2 rax hits before warpgate is done, its fine. Let him hammer at the nexus, let it drop some shield, maybe half its health. Then go down and clean up. Bringing scvs are good but bunker will NOT (repeat: NOT) finish intime. Bunker will be at most 50% done when your first warpin has happened. The protoss won't have enough units with just one warp in. The usual scenario is pre-warpin they have 3 units, usually a zealot, stalker, and sentry. Assuming they have 4 gates, by the time warpin finishes they'll probably have 2 zealots, 1 sentry, and 4 stalkers (if they didn't have a sentry at the start, you can push inside main and kill some units/pressure probes and cause general havoc/damage). At that point, terran usually has at least 3 marauders and 8-9 marines, which is easily enough to beat that. So, protoss has to wait longer, and by that point the bunker is done. [Edit] A good 2rax push should also take advantage of positioning in the natural, usually, both bunker and units would be placed in a good concave around the base of the ramp to take advantage of the superior positioning/the fact that protoss is being forced to come out to the terran.
First warpin is definitely enough. You will have, with 3 gates, 1 zealot, 1 sentry and 4 stalkers vs, just like you say, 2-3 marauders and 8-9 marines. However, the only really dangerous units are the marauders, all you need to do is to take out them. Focusfire the rauders, he can't kite because stalkers have the same range. Guardian shield on the sentry beforehand so the marines damage are minimal and you will end up in a scenario where there are only 6-7 rins present vs 2 stalkers and a sentry (assuming he controlled really well) and then your warpin is ready again. 3 Zealots or stalkers and the threat is removed. Then the scenario that I spoke about in my initial post occurs: He has the possibility to start trading decently, but under no condition should his 2 rax do more damage than this unless you were too greedy.
Your argument simply lacks evidence. This is a strategy that every master+ terran have used several times, perhaps over long periods of time. Additionally, every korean terran seems to have this strategy for a match here and there. If this strategy really dealt crippling damage every game, trust me, this would be the standard strategy of EVERY TvP.
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I just want to say that I hope your guide format becomes the new standard for guides written on TL.
In fact, you should write a guide on how to format a guide.
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what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo?
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On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote:
what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo?
If your opponent FFEs you should be able to scout the forge before your build gets all that far, so you can easily branch out and do something else. You could tech up to tanks (bust the cannons) or medivacs (avoid the cannons), or you could just play greedy (e.g. 3 OC) since your opponent will be spending a lot on defense.
Edit: If you are responding with the greedy option, you'd want to pull your workers out of gas ASAP after scouting the forge.
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On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote:
what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo?
In my experience you're basically screwed. You can't put on pressure, and your expo is so far behind that there's not really much to do.
If you scout it early enough, however, it's possible to throw down a second gas and go straight for medivacs and drop play.
A tank bust off 1 base may be another possibility, but I never got round to trying that.
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On October 24 2012 05:25 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote:
what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo? In my experience you're basically screwed. You can't put on pressure, and your expo is so far behind that there's not really much to do. If you scout it early enough, however, it's possible to throw down a second gas and go straight for medivacs and drop play. A tank bust off 1 base may be another possibility, but I never got round to trying that.
tank bust works well vs that actually, basically you add fac asap, get siege, maybe even switch TL with rax, pump marine+tank. 450 minerals = bigger window of time you have to do damage, and also his firepower being static defense = you able to get good position with tanks.
even transitioning into 2-1-1 allin with tanks + medivac or banshee and pushing later may work but i can't wait that long since their econ will probably crush you by then.
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On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
worst case, the terran executes perfectly, hits seconds before warpgate (5-10) with 5 rines 1 maraud and 2/1 rallied, vs 3 gateway units.
if you fight straight up and let him snowball...yes.
if you immediately overcompensate, pull tons of probes (at least 10) mineral walk through army and charge, you will come out at least even if not ahead.
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On October 24 2012 05:40 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote:
This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
worst case, the terran executes perfectly, hits seconds before warpgate (5-10) with 5 rines 1 maraud and 2/1 rallied, vs 3 gateway units. if you fight straight up and let him snowball...yes. if you immediately overcompensate, pull tons of probes (at least 10) mineral walk through army and charge, you will come out at least even if not ahead.
Indeed. There is a reason why pros never use this build anymore. The maps are too big now and people got used to holding it easily off of 1 gate FE. If the Protoss player just keeps their 3 units alive and warps in 3 more, they can hold easily.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Another reason this build is used a lot less is, in addition to being bigger, modern maps have choked or ramped naturals that make it very difficult to attack into. Concussive Pressure builds work acceptably on larger maps like Tal'Darim if they have unramped or semi-unramped nats and mains-- but on a map like, say,  Whirlwind, which features both long rush distance and a ramped natural and ramped main, you can't get it to work. The number of pro and ladder maps you can still use this build on is very small.
In the current GSL Map Pool, I think it could work on Cloud Kingdom and Entombed Valley. Whirlwind has long rush and ramps, Antiga has longish rush, but ramps, Daybreak has the same problem, Abyssal City I'm not familiar with but it doesn't look easy either. Bel'shir Vestige we'll have to see, with the semi-unramped natural it's a possibility but the long rush distance makes me say "no"-- and in general, Terran has moved away from an early-pressure metagame as the pros have gotten better at defending this sort of thing.
I think this is still totally viable at my own level of play, but if you want to get seriously good at Terran, long run it is okay to know this build but you should do most of your practicing with 1 Rax FE instead.
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I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first.
THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers
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On October 24 2012 07:10 BioTech wrote:
I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first.
THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers
Could the same scout timing be accomplished with a hidden scv on the map? Also, I've never seen any pro games where they go 2rax with combat shields instead of concussive, that is a very interesting idea, I may try it out myself. I can see how combat shields would make the push much stronger than concussive.
How do you normally transition once you take down the natural and have bunkers at his natural? Do you expand yourself or tech up to tanks + banshees to try to push in and win the game?
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On October 24 2012 07:01 Blazinghand wrote:Another reason this build is used a lot less is, in addition to being bigger, modern maps have choked or ramped naturals that make it very difficult to attack into. Concussive Pressure builds work acceptably on larger maps like Tal'Darim if they have unramped or semi-unramped nats and mains-- but on a map like, say, Whirlwind, which features both long rush distance and a ramped natural and ramped main, you can't get it to work. The number of pro and ladder maps you can still use this build on is very small. In the current GSL Map Pool, I think it could work on Cloud Kingdom and Entombed Valley. Whirlwind has long rush and ramps, Antiga has longish rush, but ramps, Daybreak has the same problem, Abyssal City I'm not familiar with but it doesn't look easy either. Bel'shir Vestige we'll have to see, with the semi-unramped natural it's a possibility but the long rush distance makes me say "no"-- and in general, Terran has moved away from an early-pressure metagame as the pros have gotten better at defending this sort of thing. I think this is still totally viable at my own level of play, but if you want to get seriously good at Terran, long run it is okay to know this build but you should do most of your practicing with 1 Rax FE instead.
indeed. my negativity towards 2rax in terms of 'worst case' protoss can handle it and come out at least even (with a probe pull, again worst case) is due to spamming this build in hundreds of games and there was a very specific skill ceiling where people knew EXACTLY how to handle it optimally.
i would only use this BO with greedy version, not really commit to the poke, get CS + ghost acad + 3 rax and do a 5 rax ghost allin (with 2 emps + scvs)
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On October 24 2012 07:16 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:10 BioTech wrote:
I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first.
THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers Could the same scout timing be accomplished with a hidden scv on the map? Also, I've never seen any pro games where they go 2rax with combat shields instead of concussive, that is a very interesting idea, I may try it out myself. I can see how combat shields would make the push much stronger than concussive. How do you normally transition once you take down the natural and have bunkers at his natural? Do you expand yourself or tech up to tanks + banshees to try to push in and win the game?
U could try an scv scout, but a stalker may kill him so I go the scan - guaranteed...provided youve previously worked out where his base is.
If i take down the natural I run home with my remaining troops, put down 2 bunkers and expand coz the protoss usually follows with an all-in. My transition is 4rax, 1fact for tanks, 1 starport+R. Rock up near the protoss base and seige mode/stim him to death.
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On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote:
what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo?
You nuke the Grandmaster protoss for the win!
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=273037
Check it.
Basically if u scout forge-expand get your 2nd gas, get a fact, get ghost academy. Get +1 and stim, or at least one of them, then attack with your bio. You scan his ramp, drop the nuke (12 range) a bit in front of the cannons....then bring down the thunder! After the smoke clears u run thru for the win.
In the past 2 mths Ive tried this 4 times, pulled off 3 nukes and won those 3. Lost the failed nuke attempt.
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On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote:
what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo?
a bunch of options:
1. Make a reaper
2. Marauders are pretty good vs buildings, get stim and allin him.
3. pull all ur scvs and kill him.
4. rush medivacs and drop ur army in his main.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Typically, btw, Forge Expo is only good against a Terran who does a no-gas expo, since you can't push FFE without gas. With gas, the possibilities are endless. You wouldn't want to do 2 rax but there's so many ways to make Toss sad he opened forge against Gas.
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On October 24 2012 07:10 BioTech wrote:
I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first.
THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers
I've developed my own little 2 Rax and have added on +1 Attack as well as Combat Shield to the push. I go for a 14 Marine push at ~7:00 and expand behind it. Marines with +1 attack in the early game shred Protoss units. This build also sets you up nicely for continuous upgrades while always behind ahead in that aspect, should you choose to continue going bio.
I still prefer playing Sky Terran over bio in TvP, and I find that this opener lets your transition very safely into that.
Here's a replay showing the opener I use, how effective it is against the expanding Protoss and how I transition into Sky Terran afterwards.
http://drop.sc/267934
Let me know what you guys think :D
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On October 26 2012 13:20 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:10 BioTech wrote:
I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first.
THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers I've developed my own little 2 Rax and have added on +1 Attack as well as Combat Shield to the push. I go for a 14 Marine push at ~7:00 and expand behind it. Marines with +1 attack in the early game shred Protoss units. This build also sets you up nicely for continuous upgrades while always behind ahead in that aspect, should you choose to continue going bio. I still prefer playing Sky Terran over bio in TvP, and I find that this opener lets your transition very safely into that. Here's a replay showing the opener I use, how effective it is against the expanding Protoss and how I transition into Sky Terran afterwards. http://drop.sc/267934Let me know what you guys think :D
If you are going to go reactor first 2-rax, it's more efficient to build your 2nd rax before your 2nd depot. This obviously lets in probe scouts, so the 2nd depot may be intentional, but you could probably hit with 1-2 more marines if you opened like that. First, I'd say the timing you are hitting is quite dangerous, and if not handled properly, the 14 +1 marines do shred through gateway units and probes.
However, I feel your build is situational and depends on the map (in addition to depending on your opponent's reaction, as with most timing attacks). The problem with hitting at 7:00 (or in this replay, 7:30), is that your Protoss opponent can have 5+ forcefields and a few stalkers to chop up your marine force. Your opponent fails pretty terribly to do that, as his forcefields essentially give you his 2 zealots for free. Moreover, he saw that you had pure marine out on the map, but decided not to kite your marines out on the map with his 3 stalkers. I think you will run into the most trouble if you try this on a map with a ramp at the natural, where 2-3 good force fields can chop your marine force in half.
That said, I think it's a cool variation of a 2-rax.
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i think stargate openings kills this. Especially if he was opting for a 3 gate stargate allin
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On October 26 2012 14:40 Nightsz wrote:
i think stargate openings kills this. Especially if he was opting for a 3 gate stargate allin
Any 1-base play from Protoss destroys a 2-rax player who chooses to push. I think that's besides the point, though. This is a build to try to take down your opponent's expansion.
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This build is pretty dated. It was one of my favorites but i feel that tosses can hold this ppretty easily with an f/e build and come out ahead.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 26 2012 14:43 ReachTheSky wrote:
This build is pretty dated. It was one of my favorites but i feel that tosses can hold this ppretty easily with an f/e build and come out ahead.
The number of maps this works on on the ladder has become pretty small. Check out the section on Execution for some information on this. Basically, if there's a ramp at your opponent's natural or if the rush distance is long this build will not work (or will require risky proxying).
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On October 26 2012 14:43 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:40 Nightsz wrote:
i think stargate openings kills this. Especially if he was opting for a 3 gate stargate allin Any 1-base play from Protoss destroys a 2-rax player who chooses to push. I think that's besides the point, though. This is a build to try to take down your opponent's expansion.
You can have an advantage against a Protoss player doing a 1 base all-in, if he's teching. Either twilight or Dark Shrine. He won't have much when your push hits, so you should be able to do damage. The problem with this build is that you're so far behind in tech and economy so if you don't kill your opponents expansion, you're gonna have bad time.
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On October 26 2012 18:28 Shartugal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:43 JDub wrote:On October 26 2012 14:40 Nightsz wrote:
i think stargate openings kills this. Especially if he was opting for a 3 gate stargate allin Any 1-base play from Protoss destroys a 2-rax player who chooses to push. I think that's besides the point, though. This is a build to try to take down your opponent's expansion. You can have an advantage against a Protoss player doing a 1 base all-in, if he's teching. Either twilight or Dark Shrine. He won't have much when your push hits, so you should be able to do damage. The problem with this build is that you're so far behind in tech and economy so if you don't kill your opponents expansion, you're gonna have bad time.
Fair enough. That being said, you don't want to do this build against a 1-base protoss. 4-gate, 3-gate robo, 3-gate stargate, all absolutely smash a 2-rax push.
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What do you do when protoss goes 3 gate robo?If the protoss hasn't taken his nat when my attack comes I scan his main to see what he has and normally retreat, especially if it is 3gate robo. I put up 4 bunkers in my nat and have scvs ready to repair but the protoss is still able break me with relative ease. they just 1 shot my bunkers with their immortals and FF all my shit.
any suggestions on what to do doing this 2 rax build vs 3gate robo?
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On October 28 2012 07:37 Liszt wrote:
What do you do when protoss goes 3 gate robo?If the protoss hasn't taken his nat when my attack comes I scan his main to see what he has and normally retreat, especially if it is 3gate robo. I put up 4 bunkers in my nat and have scvs ready to repair but the protoss is still able break me with relative ease. they just 1 shot my bunkers with their immortals and FF all my shit.
any suggestions on what to do doing this 2 rax build vs 3gate robo?
Well, if anything, trying to buy time to get out medivacs and stim is crucial, because once you have either stim, or stim AND medivacs, you can crush immortal pushes. Bunkers help you buy time, once they go down make sure you save your army, and abandon your natural, sacrifice the scvs to buy time too, he's on 1 base, so you can afford to lose SCVs as you have 2 CCs to remake them.
Basically without stim (and medivacs) you'll lose, so try to get it ASAP.
EDIT: Plat so take with grain of salt, but that's what I notice during practice.
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On October 28 2012 07:37 Liszt wrote:
What do you do when protoss goes 3 gate robo?If the protoss hasn't taken his nat when my attack comes I scan his main to see what he has and normally retreat, especially if it is 3gate robo. I put up 4 bunkers in my nat and have scvs ready to repair but the protoss is still able break me with relative ease. they just 1 shot my bunkers with their immortals and FF all my shit.
any suggestions on what to do doing this 2 rax build vs 3gate robo?
Tech to stim and medivacs, and dont play around with that shit. Throw down a shit load of bunkers. If you have 5-6 bunkers then he cant break that. If hes doing 1base then i will float to my main but if he does like a 2gate robo -> expo -> attack then i try to hold the nat, but its definitely scary and not something to play around with.
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On October 28 2012 07:37 Liszt wrote:
What do you do when protoss goes 3 gate robo?If the protoss hasn't taken his nat when my attack comes I scan his main to see what he has and normally retreat, especially if it is 3gate robo. I put up 4 bunkers in my nat and have scvs ready to repair but the protoss is still able break me with relative ease. they just 1 shot my bunkers with their immortals and FF all my shit.
any suggestions on what to do doing this 2 rax build vs 3gate robo?
If you know for sure he hasn't expanded, just lift your cc to your main, bunkers at top of ramp and just keep cranking out units and scv's till your first medi, you should be able to ruin his day after that.
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