I had no previous RTS experience before Starcraft 2, and I got into it because some of my friends really liked the first one, so I thought I'd give it a try. I've been playing quite a lot over the past few months and have improved pretty quickly.
Now I'm a mid master terran player with a great TvZ and TvT (for my level at least), but I have been struggling against protoss lately. I started doing Synystyr's 4 port banshee build back when I was in platinum league and my TvP skyrocketed to 95% wins; however, that quickly changed when I got to high diamond/master, and soon I found that build to be way too gimmicky to rely on as my go to TvP build. It wasn't until I was in high diamond that I started actually learning to play MMMVG against protoss. I really like MMMVG vs Protoss since I have quite good unit control and macro (again, I mean for a mid master). My multitasking could use a lot of work I suppose, but I'm working on it. Since I didn't play standard TvP until recently, I've been having trouble finding a build order that I really like.
My Question:
After watching tons of pro replays, I've noticed a build I saw PoltPrime do in a few games. The opening BO seems to be:
10 depot 12 rax 13 refinery 15 OC 15 marine 16 rax 17 depot Reactor on first rax when marine is done Tech lab on second rax when done Concussive when tech lab is done Move out when 2nd marauder is done Stim Expand
This seems like a solid build, because you get a huge army early game and you can deny their expansion while setting up yours.
Please watch both of the replays before reading further.
You'll notice after his supply gets an upper limit of 51, he doesn't build a supply depot, and instead pools money for his expansion, causing him to become supply blocked at 51 supply. After watching the game on XNC, I thought this may have been a mistake (excuse my blasphemy), but then I saw him do it again in the Shattered Temple game.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me why this is.
Maybe he expects to lose some of his army while pressuring, so it's intentional, but if this is the case, why did he pull back on XNC, causing him to be supply blocked for a good 30 seconds, ultimately costing him the game?
Maybe it would be good to do a supply call down at this time to avoid the supply block and get the expansion up at the same time, but if you end up losing units during your pressure, then that supply call down is a wasted mule.
Maybe there's just something I'm missing since I don't understand this game as well as pros do.
So can anyone explain the logic behind what he's doing there?
I actually use this same opener but instead of expanding I get a factory and a starport after stim.
That gives you a lot more options but your expansion is delayed. To counteract that you just allin him if he does a greedy expand like 1 gate fe or 15 nexus. If he plays safe you just banshee harass him and decide where to go from there.
This opening feels very safe, much safer than the standard 1 Rax FE where you rely on bunkers to defend. Protoss can exploit that way too much.
Polt is unequivocally the best TvP player in the world, he rarely loses televised games. I would bet that the supply blocking is intentional, but you never know, people make mistakes. Also, this build looks solid and I can't wait to try it out :D (if you're looking for something that could also help against P, try out his Raven timing push, can be very fun.)
I've used this build for a couple months. When executed perfectly, you have 51 max supply and 400 minerals for an expo around the ~48 supply mark (if you cut units.) From there, you can either spend your next 100 minerals on a supply depot and cut units even further, or make a few units, then a supply depot, then cut units even further to start adding on a 3rd rax or your 1st factory.
I'm guessing it has something to do with the nature of the build. It leaves you in a very weird spot just before 51 supply.
On August 04 2011 04:33 NASAmoose wrote: Polt is unequivocally the best TvP player in the world, he rarely loses televised games. I would bet that the supply blocking is intentional, but you never know, people make mistakes. Also, this build looks solid and I can't wait to try it out :D (if you're looking for something that could also help against P, try out his Raven timing push, can be very fun.)
Agree - this is currently the most standard TvP opening I think. I know Thorzain also does this occasionally also.
FYI here is an tutorial on this opening from Adebisi. At your level you won't need this tutorial, obviously, but I'm posting for others who might be interested. And to give Adebisi some love as he is a very underrated terran commentator.
On August 04 2011 04:18 Zombo Joe wrote: I actually use this same opener but instead of expanding I get a factory and a starport after stim.
That gives you a lot more options but your expansion is delayed. To counteract that you just allin him if he does a greedy expand like 1 gate fe or 15 nexus. If he plays safe you just banshee harass him and decide where to go from there.
This opening feels very safe, much safer than the standard 1 Rax FE where you rely on bunkers to defend. Protoss can exploit that way too much.
I really don't like that, because you get such a late expansion.
On August 04 2011 04:38 blinkblue wrote: I've used this build for a couple months. When executed perfectly, you have 51 max supply and 400 minerals for an expo around the ~48 supply mark (if you cut units.) From there, you can either spend your next 100 minerals on a supply depot and cut units even further, or make a few units, then a supply depot, then cut units even further to start adding on a 3rd rax or your 1st factory.
I'm guessing it has something to do with the nature of the build. It leaves you in a very weird spot just before 51 supply.
So would you suggest expanding and then getting to 51 supply, then build a depot and more production facilities?
Would it be viable to do a supply call down?
I really don't like getting supply blocked there, because a well timed push can rip you apart as seen on the XNC game.
On August 04 2011 04:38 blinkblue wrote: I've used this build for a couple months. When executed perfectly, you have 51 max supply and 400 minerals for an expo around the ~48 supply mark (if you cut units.) From there, you can either spend your next 100 minerals on a supply depot and cut units even further, or make a few units, then a supply depot, then cut units even further to start adding on a 3rd rax or your 1st factory.
I'm guessing it has something to do with the nature of the build. It leaves you in a very weird spot just before 51 supply.
So would you suggest expanding and then getting to 51 supply, then build a depot and more production facilities?
Would it be viable to do a supply call down?
I really don't like getting supply blocked there, because a well timed push can rip you apart as seen on the XNC game.
I don't think supply call-down should be needed unless you scout some sort of extremely fast 1-base timing push from the protoss (such as 3gate void, I suppose.) But I can't really see you being able to scout that other than seeing that he has a low unit count, which could also mean DTs.
Also, before I move onto that, I'd like to add that I've seen many replays where the terran will cut army at 2-3 marauders (right when they move out to push) to start their expo early. You pretty much fake a full-force 2-rax pressure build by pushing out to the watch towers and to his natural, and then if you see he's not expanding, you instantly retreat to your natural since it should be at least ~1/3-1/2 done by then.
I think the major flaw that I've been having with this build is this: Protoss can start their expansion safely at the same time as us with a decent sentry+zealot mix, but if we decide to go factory->starport after our 2rax expand, we can face some VERY heavy pressure that can be hard to defend against even with 3 bunkers. If we go 2rax->expand->3rd rax->pump units, we are very behind in getting medivac tech, but have a shitload of marine/marauder. Also, if we see a low gas unit count, we have to be spending resources on ebay+turret.
So, in other words, I feel very stuck with being forced to build 2-3 bunkers, occasionally an ebay+turret, and either teching off 2rax and risk dying or delaying tech heavily by making a 3rd rax first. I don't know how to deal with these issues yet.
Also a random note: I'm pretty sure you can only cut units and get expo @ 47-48 supply if you're also slightly delaying stim. I've been researching stim after I start my expo, and maybe that's at least one step in the right direction of how to deal with macroing while supply blocked for a short period of time.
ive been using this build for many weeks in EU masters, i love it but its not worth on big maps imo, the P can 1gate expo and with proper micro come way ahead.
On August 04 2011 04:33 NASAmoose wrote: Polt is unequivocally the best TvP player in the world, he rarely loses televised games. I would bet that the supply blocking is intentional, but you never know, people make mistakes. Also, this build looks solid and I can't wait to try it out :D (if you're looking for something that could also help against P, try out his Raven timing push, can be very fun.)
On August 04 2011 04:33 NASAmoose wrote: Polt is unequivocally the best TvP player in the world, he rarely loses televised games. I would bet that the supply blocking is intentional, but you never know, people make mistakes. Also, this build looks solid and I can't wait to try it out :D (if you're looking for something that could also help against P, try out his Raven timing push, can be very fun.)
That's an extremely old game, and very much a 1-base all-in. I'm pretty sure most of us are looking into 2rax expand transitions, not 1-base all-in "cheese".
Far from me to query a player ranked higher than me (Im diamond) I firmly beileve a terran shud get CShields straight after shells in TvP and only get stim when he has medivacs.
Critically the marine with 55HP will need 2 slices from a DT to die instead of 1 Needs 6 hits from a stalker to die instead of 5 Needs 4 swipes from a zealot instead of 3 Survive longer vs voidrays.
I have tested and can confirm that a marine with CShields beats one with stim, all other things being equal. CS completes 60 seconds sooner as well.
On August 04 2011 07:34 BioTech wrote: Far from me to query a player ranked higher than me (Im diamond) I firmly beileve a terran shud get CShields straight after shells in TvP and only get stim when he has medivacs.
Critically the marine with 55HP will need 2 slices from a DT to die instead of 1 Needs 6 hits from a stalker to die instead of 5 Needs 4 swipes from a zealot instead of 3 Survive longer vs voidrays.
I have tested and can confirm that a marine with CShields beats one with stim, all other things being equal. CS completes 60 seconds sooner as well.
Well the thing is, I usually don't get CS against toss until quite late, since unless they go air, I go more marauder heavy.
I still feel like no one has completely answered my question .. Should I just cut units to expand at ~48 supply?
There is no good answer, it really depends on the game. 2 rax expand is a very reactionnary build : you have to adapt to the Protoss, if you expand around 50 food one base aggressive toss (colossus, immortals or void rays) can kill you, so you have to either expand later or cut SCVs and build bunkers. On the other hand, expanding at 50 food sometimes means your expansion is quite behind his, the last day9 daily showcases a Terran chosing to stay one base because his first push was not successful and his expo would have been too late to catch up... My advice is to always leave a unit at his nat after your push, to count the number of units (specially sentries) he has and to take a decision with an in-game reason.
It's clear that the answer is to be reactionary. I vote we try to come up with all of the possibilities of scouting information we can gather, and try to create a plan to response for each.
For example, if he has only 1 gas and is using all of his chronoboost, he's probably going for an early expo. If he has 1 gas and isn't using his chronoboost, we should watch his expo but prepare for a 4gate, and do our usual 2 rax with a late expo.
Etc. Go down the list of all of the builds he could be doing based on 2nd gas timing, chronoboost count, and what his first few units are. From there, we should really have a solid plan of when we want to expo based on poking in to look at his units, and trying to scout his expo.
Of course, we wont always be able to scout his expo for free (his first stalker should be able to prevent this) so there's gotta be some average responses for when this happens.
Here's a good question: If we leave our first scouting SCV at their expo, what should our response be if we see them throw down an expo? Throw ours down ASAP, and then try to pressure as hard as we can just to TRY to get a cancel/pick off a few units/the pylon at their ramp?
this build is the most popular tvp build right now this build is used on pretty much every single map that you can't take a gasless expand on tvp which is like most of them
personally tho i dont like this build because since the stim nerf you can't do a timing to kill some sentries you just end up getting crushed so i try to stay away from 2 rax and go for either gasless or tech
@2 Marauders and 5-6ish Marines, is the standard attack timing for the 2rax pressure. The 2nd Command Center is taken afterwards, at any point, just don't lose too many units and you will have enough to hold a 4gate or 3gate pressure.
To be honest I prefer the 1 Rax FE into 3 rax stim, and the Marauder First FE for a macro game. But 2Rax is good for stopping Protoss's fast or early expand and securing an early expand for Terran. Off of two rax you are set for army until warpgate finishes and should have a few bunkers up in time for that.
Plus you can skip the factory for upto 5 rax (three naked) and do another attack on the natural if you so choose but Colossus or High Templar are gonna be out by that time.
yeah in masters I do both the korean style gasless 1 rax FE, and 2 rax or 1/1/1 on the maps where you can't safely 1 rax FE. you should definitely experiment with the 1 rax FE if you have not yet done so, I prefer it to the 2 rax for whatever reason.
This build is soooo good. It completely dominates the current metagame on NA ladder. Most protoss players are going fast expands which you can outright kill with this build.
I've used this build for probably 60 games, and protoss has never held their fast expo from my attack...
EPT
.. Should I just cut units to expand at ~48 supply?
