On May 22 2012 11:24 Zariel wrote: As a protoss player, I approve of this guide.
However, I have adapted my own style of countering/defending double speedling rushes. I do go standard gate/forge combo, but I tend to use simcity very very often if it is separate bases (namely Sand Canyon, Toxic Slums if close spawn). In any case, when 2x zerg rushes you, once your front door gets knocked down because of a mistimed cannon/dead zealot, it means guaranteed death. With good simcity, 1 cannon in your mineral line next to the nexus is able to protect your cyber and gateway, additionally, your pylons will also be sealed due to your gateway, forge and cyber placements (No pictures at the moment since i'm at work). However, with 1 cannon you won't be able to cover your 2nd gas the way I do it.
When you have a Protoss and a Terran. A very good combo I have found against speedlings and zealots is forcefielding on top of sieged tanks. This pretty much makes tanks immune to ling backstabs and buys plenty of time for your units to pull a little back.
Yea on some maps you will be forced to build close, like frontier for instance. Although I prefer blocking at the ramp because speedlings aren't really the problem, it's hellions. If you block at the front with a cannon, hellions can't get in, but they can deny mining or kill workers by running to the side the cannon is not. Of course, you can just build more cannons, and it really does come down to preference. Do what works for you, but I just hate run bys with hellions and lings, so I tend to build the cannon at the front.
Cool stuff bro. I like playing team games when I just want to relax and have fun with Starcraft. I've been diamond in 3v3 for what is seems like forever and have been looking to make the jump into master's. Maybe this will help me do that.
Hey could i ask your opinnion about a few things? (i mostly play 4x4 as terran)
On sand cannyon you can wall off on the lowground with 2 depots and a rax, i always do this when the other team has multiple zergs though i often get comments from teammates for doing this. The advantage is obvious ,a fast and tight wall in time for 6 pools while still alowing you to take gas if you would like, so not forced to 2 rax (wich isnt in time for 6 pool btw to close on top ramp) you are a bit better able to help your closest alie if he get 6/10 pooled, and you able to later extend the wall towards your alies ramp with more rax/bunkers and expand behind it. There also a few disadvantages. Wall is an easy target for marines/stalkers/hellions and you might not be able to go out to repell them, on the highground this is a bit less of a problem as the marines/stalkers etc then dont have vision right away. I also often wall on the low ground on toxic slum, where you can wall with just depot and rax. Whats your opinnion on walling low against zergs on these 2 maps?
You didnt cover cannon rush btw for toss, i see this verry often and find this an extremely strong and annoying tactic on certain maps. Is cannonrush considerd not viable at the highest levels?
edit:Thx for reply Seen the cannonrush section now, it was under cheese. See it so often i thought it was a standard To wall-in in time for 6 pool you would need to skip 1 suv and make the depot a bit earlier upon scouting it. Guess its indeed to risky against ranged units though, thx
On May 22 2012 21:21 Rassy wrote: Hey could i ask your opinnion about a few things? (i mostly play 4x4 as terran)
On sand cannyon you can wall off on the lowground with 2 depots and a rax, i always do this when the other team has multiple zergs though i often get comments from teammates for doing this. The advantage is obvious ,a fast and tight wall in time for 6 pools while still alowing you to take gas if you would like, so not forced to 2 rax (wich isnt in time for 6 pool btw to close on top ramp) you are a bit better able to help your closest alie if he get 6/10 pooled, and you able to later extend the wall towards your alies ramp with more rax/bunkers and expand behind it. There also a few disadvantages. Wall is an easy target for marines/stalkers/hellions and you might not be able to go out to repell them, on the highground this is a bit less of a problem as the marines/stalkers etc then dont have vision right away. I also often wall on the low ground on toxic slum, where you can wall with just depot and rax. Whats your opinnion on walling low against zergs on these 2 maps?
You didnt cover cannon rush btw for toss, i see this verry often and find this an extremely strong and annoying tactic on certain maps. Is cannonrush considerd not viable at the highest levels?
I think you might be confusing a 6 pool with a 10 pool. If your opponent 6 pools you will not be able to block the low ground in time usually, but that's fine since most zergs do a 10 pool.
I generally do not recommend blocking on the low ground unless it's a map like dig site, temple of the preservers, or ulaan deeps and you can block 2 players in with a wall. Putting structures on the low ground makes you a lot more vulnerable to ranged units early in the game. I would not recommend building on the low ground on sand canyon because there is still an area to the right or left of the xel naga towers that are a ramp leading into your territory. Also, ranged units can hit your production buildings while you do not have vision of the high ground. Walling on the low ground also increases the distance your workers have to travel to repair.
Unless it's one of the first three maps I mentioned or extinction in 4v4 I would generally not wall on the low ground.
Cannon rushes are actually quite viable in team games at the highest level, assuming you are applying pressure with proxies or lings. You can also use cannon rushes to take out players who do a hatch first build if they do not see the cannons coming. The other best time to cannon rush is a terran player who goes gas first because he will not have marines out in time to deny cannons or pylons. This will force his allies to commit some forces to try and defend him, so that might buy your team the time it needs to get out on the map.
Check out this video to see how I deny some expansions against zerg players in 3v3 when our team had no zergs.
Bump! An excellent guide that definitely deserves more attention; the section on 2v2 matchups in particular were really helpful for me. I'd like to ask a question about TT teams where one player goes Reactored Hellion while the other goes 2 Rax Marauder and pressure with the first two Hellions and Marauders.
As Terran you should be able to get Bunkers up in time. As Protoss I've been trying 3 Stalker Rush into 3/4 Gate as a standard 3/4 Gate makes it hard for your ally to hold against pre-warp pressure. For Zerg though, it looks like I'm forced to open with Speedlings as 15 Hatch into Spines is highly dependant on map/spawns. Could you suggest a better response?
I'm also having trouble with follow ups for Zerg in particular as the strat is able to put on pressure much (force non-Drones) earlier compared to a standard 1-1-1/Bio opening whilst maintaining a good econ and flexibilty in tech.
This is hands down the best guide i have ever read on TL and team games. I'm not sure how i could have missed out on it, but i think i deserves a bump for a lot more people to see, especially since there aren't any other good threads about it.
Best OP on TL ever! Never saw anything even coming close... At first glance it looks like the bible of team games. Hope content haven't aged to much with patches and meta game. Will give it a good read through when I get time.
Regarding Marauder/Hellion: The obvious counter is Immortals. Against 2 Terrans you can open fairly greedily so you can probably do Robo after 1 Gateway and then Chrono Immortals. The Robo also gives you access to Obs for cloaked Banshees which are a frequent follow up to Hellions.
One question I have is about the builds that go Forge before Core to survive multiple 10 pools from Zergs in 4v4.
The issue I run into, is while I am fairly safe if I do this, my teammates are in grave danger since Warp will not finish in time to support them.
In 3s and 4s I almost always open with a 10 or 11 Gate into a fast 3 gate with Zealot+Stalker into 5:25-5:30 first warp in of 3 Stalkers depending on the map and when I scouted. This enables me to more effectively help defend my allies and to put pressure before enemy Protoss finishes Warp.
When I tried the Forge before Core build after scouting double 10 pool I would end up watching in horror as my teammates were killed off before my Warp could finish.
The weakness of what I do are that there are some probe cuts leading to an economic disadvantage and there is of course no tech such as Blink or Robo.
Also, in 4s I have found the best plan for getting detection is to have a single Zerg get a somewhat fast lair and then have overlords ready to morph to overseer in each base. Basically the lair is only 150/100 by itself which is less than a single scan or a Robo. The 100 gas might as well just be 100 minerals since if Zerg is 10 pooling you already have an extractor and it just a matter of keeping drones on gas a bit longer.
Then if and when DTs hit everyone can give resources to Zerg who transforms 4 Overseers and everyone is safe.
Compared to scans, static detection or Robotics facility this is the least painful way to deal with DTs.
Robo, is good for a single Protoss, but you just cannot get Observers out for everyone in time for DTs from a single Robo. The advantage of a single Zerg going Lair is huge.
Also, later on when/if you transition it is helpful for a Zerg to already have Lair.
Note: I am only a high diamond, so not at UnRivaled's level.
On November 15 2012 04:30 meadbert wrote: Regarding Marauder/Hellion: The obvious counter is Immortals. Against 2 Terrans you can open fairly greedily so you can probably do Robo after 1 Gateway and then Chrono Immortals. The Robo also gives you access to Obs for cloaked Banshees which are a frequent follow up to Hellions.
One question I have is about the builds that go Forge before Core to survive multiple 10 pools from Zergs in 4v4. The issue I run into, is while I am fairly safe if I do this, my teammates are in grave danger since Warp will not finish in time to support them.
In 3s and 4s I almost always open with a 10 or 11 Gate into a fast 3 gate with Zealot+Stalker into 5:25-5:30 first warp in of 3 Stalkers depending on the map and when I scouted. This enables me to more effectively help defend my allies and to put pressure before enemy Protoss finishes Warp.
When I tried the Forge before Core build after scouting double 10 pool I would end up watching in horror as my teammates were killed off before my Warp could finish.
The weakness of what I do are that there are some probe cuts leading to an economic disadvantage and there is of course no tech such as Blink or Robo.
Also, in 4s I have found the best plan for getting detection is to have a single Zerg get a somewhat fast lair and then have overlords ready to morph to overseer in each base. Basically the lair is only 150/100 by itself which is less than a single scan or a Robo. The 100 gas might as well just be 100 minerals since if Zerg is 10 pooling you already have an extractor and it just a matter of keeping drones on gas a bit longer.
Then if and when DTs hit everyone can give resources to Zerg who transforms 4 Overseers and everyone is safe.
Compared to scans, static detection or Robotics facility this is the least painful way to deal with DTs.
Robo, is good for a single Protoss, but you just cannot get Observers out for everyone in time for DTs from a single Robo. The advantage of a single Zerg going Lair is huge.
Also, later on when/if you transition it is helpful for a Zerg to already have Lair.
Note: I am only a high diamond, so not at UnRivaled's level.
Depends on the map you're playing. If you're a protoss player and run the risk of the opposing team having more zerg than yours does, you should be veto'ing split base maps like toxic slums, etc. On shared base maps it's not as big of a deal.
If you do however find yourself in a situation where as a protoss your teammates are inevitably going to die to a ling/hellion timing, you should keep in mind you have several minutes to tech up unopposed while your opponents are likely stuck on speedlings/bio/hellions/gateway units. My ideal choice is a 2 colossus 2 gas 4 gate. Toss in a warp prism for reinforcements and colossus-pick-up micro that will make their heads explode. They rarely have mobile anti-air with any range that isn't a marine. You'll probably kill as many opponents that rushed before you're stopped, essentially equalizing the game state.
As for DT's, they can be accounted for and scouted with good scouting of his gas or good overlord/scan placement. If a protoss blindly forges and no expansion/4gate comes from him, you can (generally) assume safely he's going stargate or dts while everyone grabs detection and kills his teammates. Forge, evo chamber, engi bay, etc. It's down to what you're willing to trade when a protoss surrenders map control for a tech advantage.
Play a lot of high 4v4 (that's 4v4 while I'm high ). This guide touches on some great points; sometimes, even with all you do as an individual you're just going to get trampled by lesser players. If it weren't the case I would have a lower rank. Team games so seldom depend upon the performance of the individual. So many of the losses I've experienced in team games have been a direct result of teammates (that includes me) having poor cohesion as opposed to them sucking as a player.
EPT
