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United States7166 Posts
Msg to JP: Testing this took only about 5 min of my attention while I browsed the web and waited for ol's to fly around. The rest I just think about while driving/showering. Just an FYI before you go saying on SotG that I "spend all day on the PTR testing crazy shit" like you've done. Which btw I've never done.
Useful facts about the 25% Overlord Speed Increase (yes I tested this)
- ZvT Ohana: Now will barely be safe to send 1st overlord directly to the safe spot behind opponent's natural geysers.
- ZvT Korhal Compound: Not only will you now safely reach the cliff above enemy's natural expo, but you can also first quickly peek at their wall-off above their ramp before retreating to safety
- ZvT Daybreak: You will now be safe to send your 1st overlord to the space (or those high up, blue box things that also hide your overlord) behind opponent's natural geysers.
- ZvT Cloud Kingdom: Now more than enough time to safely reach the cliff above their natural. If you wanted, you can also send it straight behind their main (that large area behind their gases). The only reason I guess is to either check their gas timings or suicide into main to spot build (suiciding now scouts more too).
- ZvT Metalopolis: You can send your first overlord to check if he spawned close by air, then if he's not there, you can send it cross-spawn, in that large airspace that separates the main bases from each other.
- ZvZ Antiga Shipyard: Sending your 1st overlord to either of the close mains, if you found him you can now spot if they went an early pool before you place your 15 hatch down. Then just plant a pool instead and you're ahead. Also FYI sending a drone right at 9 supply to the other 2 locations, as long as you go only halfway up the ramp for the first base you scout (to peak if there is creep), even if they were cross spawn your drone should scout an early pool just before you place a 15 hatch.
- ZvT Antiga Shipyard: Send your first overlord cross spawn directly to the space behind the natural minerals and it'll arrive barely in time to be safe, while also glimpsing their wall-off. This is mostly useful for tourney versions where they're cross only, but it's nice on ladder too because it also scouts the center for any proxy raxes, and it feels cool. Also you can send your 2nd overlord to the clockwise spawn if you think they're there, to the same spot behind natural and it'll be safe. Unless you want the 2nd to always scout your own natural for bunkers.
- ZvT Shakuras Plateau: Send OL close-by-air, if you see him there, keep going floating over his base, check his wall-off above his ramp, then go to the airspace on the other side safely (so you can check his natural later easily).
edit: Yes, in ZvZ queens can easily chase down overlords off creep still. Takes a bit longer and the queen has to travel further out though. Of course you can also hang above opponent's hatch a bit longer after their pool finishes. How long is safe to do so, is map dependent.
If you forget any of these, or want to apply it to other maps, just think 'does it seem like if my overlord got there 25% faster, would that be enough to make it safe?'
Where Queen Range 5 will be most useful:
All matchups:
- Queens will sit further behind your army when defending attacks, in a safer area. It will be noticeably easier to keep them alive.
- 1 queen will be able to kill a scouting worker than runs right by the queen now! (if the scout tries to skirt around the queen it should survive, provided it's not at a choke) Also of course it will be harder to fully scout for what buildings zerg's made.
- Players may sometimes deem it worthwhile to get a couple more queens than normal for defensive purposes. Why? 1 Queen does more dps than a stalker (provided that unit has 0 armor. Armor is twice as effective vs the queen's 2xAttack, and queens attack fairly quickly), and with 5 range + the ability to tranfuse and spread creep, players may want to get a couple extra before they really get their army production going. Just note that since kiting with queens is pointless and they're molasses off creep, and their dps drops quickly vs anything with Armor, they're not going to really be a great fighter unit in your army comp, and since they pose almost no threat for an attack, units will often be the preferred choice. Unless you nydus into their base
- (probably not worth reading) : The unique situations where you built many queens to defend vs air, and you didn't take much damage, and then decide to counterattack because they're vulnerable (often they are depending on their air units to keep them temporarily alive, which is where your queens come in). Well now if you attack with army + queens, queens will probably hit ground stuff now too.
ZvT:
- Queens will be quite a bit better at pushing back a hellion 'contain' (so you can safely spread tumors). If you're worried this somehow makes hellions a bad opening, read this. Take both this comment and the patch change with a grain of salt, it's not the end of the world for hellions nor is it completely meaningless.
- Will help defend bunker rushes (attacking scvs building bunkers, marines).
- Hellions (range 5), marines (5), and reapers (4.5), will no longer kite queens without taking hits. They will just generally be better at dealing with most terran units as they are no longer outranged by most of them.
ZvP:
- Stalkers (range 6) harassing queens will be slightly easier on the zerg
- Defending zealot harass slightly better
- Very situationally help vs cannon rushes (particularly the 3 pylon wall below ramp can be safely hit now by a queen. It takes exactly 1 ingame minute for a queen to kill 1 pylon.)
- Just generally be a little more useful at fending off early rushes or small attacks.
ZvZ:
- When you've 2 queens blocking ramp while lings attack your spine/s, now your queen can often attack back while standing there.
- Better at denying baneling run-bys
- A bit better at dealing with ling harassment
- Hatch-first builds in particular will be slightly easier to do/better than it is now.
- Situationally vs roaches (queens will outrange them), like when they're on hold position behind your mineral line when they went around your spines.
- Some zvz timings involve roaches/queens/infestors (usually vs muta builds) so they may be marginally more useful there (though they're mostly for antiair and transfuse still).
Did you know?
Queens do 8 damage to ground, but it's split into 2 Attacks of 4 damage each, so Armor is twice as effective vs queens. But more importantly, the attack animation to do both attacks is so long that there's essentially no time to move in between attacks. If you try, you'll just end up delaying the next attack and doing less dps.
So basically, don't try to stutter-step (move in-between attacks) with queens, range 5 or not, doesn't matter. (technically you could kite a zealot but it's not worth it.
*HOWEVER* when Blizzard changes the look of the attack animation like they said they would, this might change.
edit: Yes they did change it, and it's actually a good idea to stutter step if you can execute it properly.
here is a useful list of the Attack Ranges of all units
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Thanks for posting all this 
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Really useful information. Thank you for taking the time to share this ^^
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Thanks! Didn't think too hard about this myself. Btw, you can't spawn close pos on metalopolis anymore.
nvm misread
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Very very useful information. Helpful for Zerg players and non-Zerg players alike.
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ty that's ballin information to know. Can't wait for it tomorrow :D
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queens are my fav unit and I always make extra amounts... so thanks for some tips!
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United States7166 Posts
I'm having fun theorycrafting the idea of mass queens. Doesn't sound that bad, as long as you can nydus them over or have good creep spread. Transfuses make up for the less than ideal DPS-per-cost of the unit. Their dps is quite decent, and gain +2 dmg per upgrade. Heh at lvl 3 attack they almost double their damage. Too bad its split into 2 attacks though so armor is twice as effective. But with anti-air, 1 armor and good HP, creep tumors and Transfuse working very well with other queens, I dunno sounds kind of decent 
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f*cking incredible post, thank you zelniq.
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On May 10 2012 16:44 Zelniq wrote:I'm having fun theorycrafting the idea of mass queens. Doesn't sound that bad, as long as you can nydus them over or have good creep spread. Transfuses make up for the less than ideal DPS-per-cost of the unit. Their dps is quite decent, and gain +2 dmg per upgrade. Heh at lvl 3 attack they almost double their damage. Too bad its split into 2 attacks though so armor is twice as effective. But with anti-air, 1 armor and good HP, creep tumors and Transfuse working very well with other queens, I dunno sounds kind of decent
Look at Fitzyhere videos on Twitch, http://www.twitch.tv/fitzyhere/videos. He already uses uses a very large number of queen (at least in TvZ) and is top 50 NA if I am not wrong. Hate his style, but was already more or less too powerful ; it will be even better now.
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Thank you man ! This will be very helpful
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mass queen into ultras gonna be new meta! mass nydus, and transport around queens and ultras everywhere!
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Awesome post Zelniq, very helpful.
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Very nice, Zerg Professor.
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Nice write up. I look forward to seeing the queen changes go live.
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Great, thanks, I needed that OV tips. Very useful post, thanks one more time !
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Who let fitzyhere on the blizzard balance team? Patch makes no sense
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Nice job Zelniq, especially love the Overlord speed changes for specific maps, and how queens are affecting ZvZ, maybe less baneling/speedling allins since Queens can probably kill baneling runbys a lot easier?
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Will queens be able to kill overlords off creep post-speed upgrade?
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On May 10 2012 17:56 Elwar wrote:
Will queens be able to kill overlords off creep post-speed upgrade?
thats actually one important thing to know, but i think they still can, but much harder and takes too long. (i assume queens are like 0.6 offcreep?)
also baneling openings in zvz are going to be so much weaker and the zvz metagame might change to a earlier t2 midgame i think.
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This is really nice thank you thank you thank you. Good testing i hope it will help me improofe :D
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Great post.Eventhough i'm playing zerg I don't really like the fact that terrans can't kite queeens with reaper and hellions anymore. Removing micro is not what this game needs  .
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Norway839 Posts
Nice post, very useful, thx
Wow the change in regards to denial of scouting is massive. I guess scouting through a queen on open natural maps like Tal'darim and Bel'shir beach or any map for that matter should be ... impossible now? xD really good for zerg 2base plays, very unfortunate for protoss players trying to get info.
@Wunder: Early game agression like 14/14 will obviously be even more easy mode for the defender now, 14/14 will be super technical to execute and not worth it unless you are playing someone with terrible control. Gasless builds like the hatch first 3spine double queen defense or the 15h16p17g with 1-2 spines and double/triple queen defense will come even more into style. Or 14p16h 3queen defense for those that don't want to flip the hatch first coin.
Queens can still kill overlords off creep, it will just take a little longer and it's easier for the overlord player to reach safe havens.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
On May 10 2012 18:08 Snute wrote:
@Wunder: Early game agression like 14/14 will obviously be even more easy mode for the defender now, 14/14 will be super technical to execute and not worth it unless you are playing someone with terrible control. Gasless builds like the hatch first 3spine double queen defense or the 15h16p17g with 1-2 spines and double/triple queen defense will come even more into style. Or 14p16h 3queen defense for those that don't want to flip the hatch first coin.
Hi Snute, unfortunately as I don't play Zerg I have no idea what you've just said, but it sounds like it's a good thing for Zergs in terms of a more macro style or at least more 2base play, though we already see a lot of 2 base stuff now.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 10 2012 18:12 Wunder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 18:08 Snute wrote:
@Wunder: Early game agression like 14/14 will obviously be even more easy mode for the defender now, 14/14 will be super technical to execute and not worth it unless you are playing someone with terrible control. Gasless builds like the hatch first 3spine double queen defense or the 15h16p17g with 1-2 spines and double/triple queen defense will come even more into style. Or 14p16h 3queen defense for those that don't want to flip the hatch first coin. Hi Snute, unfortunately as I don't play Zerg I have no idea what you've just said, but it sounds like it's a good thing for Zergs in terms of a more macro style or at least more 2base play, though we already see a lot of 2 base stuff now.
Hahaha my bad, sorry XD basically, taking an expansion and defending early attacks and 1-base aggression will be a lot easier now. We will probably see a lot more passive macro styles the changes are very good for those who want to play midgames instead of micro intensive early games.
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zvz early-midgame push of mass queen/infestor with say +1 ranged attack? 
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On May 10 2012 18:17 SolidSMD wrote:zvz early-midgame push of mass queen/infestor with say +1 ranged attack?
this style mixed with hydras vs a heavy roach army could be devastating.
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I will have to relearn all overlord timings TT
(I'm T)
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Sweet, ov info soooooo useful.
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Very cool, I really like these kinds of informative posts and you've presented it really well. Thanks, I'm going to make notes of everything you have here, I'm looking forward to playing around with these timings myself. Seems like the ideal time to really work on overlord scouting.
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A really well-written post, GJ Zelniq :D
If I were to make any suggestion, it's that you could have put pretty pictures into the post to make it more shiny. A post with pictures in it makes it 74% more appealing! FACT*.
+ Show Spoiler [*] +May not be a fact; I made it up. Sorry
I can't wait to try out these changes on ladder
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what hairy said... if you can put pictures with drawings it would be easier to understand what you are explaining. thanks nonetheless!
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nice, but all of those OL spots were only tested under the assumption that he goes for a "above the ramp"-rax and not a "I want to kill the first OL"-rax, right?
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Bad balance update, but good post
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Badass Queen's >
Now im gona listen to Killer Quen by Queen 
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I hope they can buff reapers a bit, now queens are better at defending them... that would see more use of the reaper as well!
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This is extremely useful, thanks for testing these so we don't have to!
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The queen change will probably make defending cheese slightly easier, but I don't think it will affect my play very much.
Overlord speed however - f*ck yeah! Omg that will be so great.
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Putting in the work! I hope you win alot ^^
I never really thought overlords where UP. They and zerglings is the main reason I am so much better with zerg in 1v1. Find it hard to get good scouting with T&P. Mainly because I hate losing workers and splitting more than 25 mineral chunks from my army ;-)
Ps. Blizzard make me cry with all this downtime. Feels like server is down every 2 weeks. Nobody told them about failover??? They could easily make downtime equal to one restart of the game.
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Gj Zelniq, especially for the overlord timings and sweetspots, as most ppl would probably not realise what they can do (like flying through terran main on shakuras).
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The Overlord speed especially seems quite significant for Zerg early game. Looking forward to the new meta
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The main thing for overlord speed is getting across the map at the start of the game without being killed by the first marine which in its current state happend too often, the slight increase has removed this finally and I can feel safe about sending first overlord across map which is perfect
The queen attack range wasn't needed but its the perfect anti scout unit now, and this is why I think they changed it to range 5 not 4, since before Terran and Protoss could just send scv or probe when ever they wanted to see what we zergs were doing and unless we had speed or a spine up it was pretty difficult to stop but now that first queen can stop that pesky probe or scv at the ramp.
Now I can have more fun doing early harass cause that damn scout can be denied
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Thanks a lot for posting this, very useful information :D
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Helpful for zergs, and the other races =D tyvm
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Thank you for making this post, cleared up some stuff for me.
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My hellions are very very sad indeed.
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4-5 queen openings going to hit the front of the ZvT meta imo. Stephano opens with roaches in the match up to deflect hellions and threaten the possibility of a bust. The 4 queen opening won't be able to pressure, but will be able to get up a much more economical 3rd base. My guess is a kind of gasless three hatch like in the ZvP matchup, except the third hatch is a macro, with 5-6 queens, banshees are also taken care of.
PS: Can't you stutter step queens vs hellions? Each time the hellions stutter, the queen can stutter with them, and never be out of range. Also her fat ass is great for blocking behind mineral lines.
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I thought scouting with scvs was hard enough T_T, now they don't even need the spine or lings. Good write up though, a lot of zergs didn't know that 2 marines could snipe an ovie moving into the sweet spot on korhal.
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I think this might become important eventually:
ZvP queens can hit buildings without being hit by cannon. Walking over queens or nydusing in front of a FFE walloff looks to be viable now. Except their speed queens dominate hydra's as far as combat stats go now so mass queen + ling with nydus looks to be a really good thing if you ask me. For maps without a second ramp at the natural i can see this be quite a viable all-in, especially if toss opened air.
I really think at some point they should just give the queen a speed upgrade and get rid of the hydra completely, I think hydra's are now completely useless to build.
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On May 11 2012 01:55 Markwerf wrote:
I think this might become important eventually:
ZvP queens can hit buildings without being hit by cannon. Walking over queens or nydusing in front of a FFE walloff looks to be viable now. Except their speed queens dominate hydra's as far as combat stats go now so mass queen + ling with nydus looks to be a really good thing if you ask me. For maps without a second ramp at the natural i can see this be quite a viable all-in, especially if toss opened air.
I really think at some point they should just give the queen a speed upgrade and get rid of the hydra completely, I think hydra's are now completely useless to build.
if you lose to your FFE wall getting broken by mass queens, then you deserve to lose.
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On May 11 2012 01:59 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:55 Markwerf wrote:
I think this might become important eventually:
ZvP queens can hit buildings without being hit by cannon. Walking over queens or nydusing in front of a FFE walloff looks to be viable now. Except their speed queens dominate hydra's as far as combat stats go now so mass queen + ling with nydus looks to be a really good thing if you ask me. For maps without a second ramp at the natural i can see this be quite a viable all-in, especially if toss opened air.
I really think at some point they should just give the queen a speed upgrade and get rid of the hydra completely, I think hydra's are now completely useless to build.
if you lose to your FFE wall getting broken by mass queens, then you deserve to lose.
and if you lose it to hydra's you don't? Queen bust can be really strong, just tech lair off 2 base make get around 7 queens and nydus just outside the wall while protecting it with speedling. Use the queens to take down wall and stream in lings. 7 queens take down a building only a bit slower then roaches and are much beefier, i can see it working well. It's just much faster then a hydra bust because you don't need a hydra den or lots of geysers plus you are using less larvae so you can stream more lings..
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this is an amazing post! just what I was hoping for.
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Thank you Zelniq for this! Really saves me alot of time testing this for myself <3
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You should put screenshots with arrows on the map (showing where OL originated from) and then it will be an AMAZING post. I'm sure I can figure all the spots out following your directions but... pictures. Otherwise, really helpful, so thank you.
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Excellent post, thank you!
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United States7166 Posts
On May 11 2012 02:05 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:59 HelloSon wrote:On May 11 2012 01:55 Markwerf wrote:
I think this might become important eventually:
ZvP queens can hit buildings without being hit by cannon. Walking over queens or nydusing in front of a FFE walloff looks to be viable now. Except their speed queens dominate hydra's as far as combat stats go now so mass queen + ling with nydus looks to be a really good thing if you ask me. For maps without a second ramp at the natural i can see this be quite a viable all-in, especially if toss opened air.
I really think at some point they should just give the queen a speed upgrade and get rid of the hydra completely, I think hydra's are now completely useless to build.
if you lose to your FFE wall getting broken by mass queens, then you deserve to lose. and if you lose it to hydra's you don't? Queen bust can be really strong, just tech lair off 2 base make get around 7 queens and nydus just outside the wall while protecting it with speedling. Use the queens to take down wall and stream in lings. 7 queens take down a building only a bit slower then roaches and are much beefier, i can see it working well. It's just much faster then a hydra bust because you don't need a hydra den or lots of geysers plus you are using less larvae so you can stream more lings..
well while getting lair you can only make queens 1 at a time, unless you went 3 hatch, which takes a while and time is of the essence in a build like this. however costing only minerals is nice, except you do need a total of 550 gas mined for nydus, lair, speed. sounds iffy. maybe you can win some games vs weak opponents or if you catch them doing a stargate build, i dunno
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great post, thanks! helps a lot : )
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This is awesome. So much good information here... Thanks a lot Zelniq
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woah i just realized where i had seen the id "zelniq" before, hit you on ladder the other day lol
good hatchblock on my core, nothing i could do to win that game from there on QQ
interesting writeup i'll keep this stuff in mind when i'm offracing
edit: ironically these changes just ruin my 3zealot pressure expand build QQ gonna have to figure something new out :/
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thanks for the great post op!
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On May 11 2012 02:39 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 02:05 Markwerf wrote:On May 11 2012 01:59 HelloSon wrote:On May 11 2012 01:55 Markwerf wrote:
I think this might become important eventually:
ZvP queens can hit buildings without being hit by cannon. Walking over queens or nydusing in front of a FFE walloff looks to be viable now. Except their speed queens dominate hydra's as far as combat stats go now so mass queen + ling with nydus looks to be a really good thing if you ask me. For maps without a second ramp at the natural i can see this be quite a viable all-in, especially if toss opened air.
I really think at some point they should just give the queen a speed upgrade and get rid of the hydra completely, I think hydra's are now completely useless to build.
if you lose to your FFE wall getting broken by mass queens, then you deserve to lose. and if you lose it to hydra's you don't? Queen bust can be really strong, just tech lair off 2 base make get around 7 queens and nydus just outside the wall while protecting it with speedling. Use the queens to take down wall and stream in lings. 7 queens take down a building only a bit slower then roaches and are much beefier, i can see it working well. It's just much faster then a hydra bust because you don't need a hydra den or lots of geysers plus you are using less larvae so you can stream more lings.. well while getting lair you can only make queens 1 at a time, unless you went 3 hatch, which takes a while and time is of the essence in a build like this. however costing only minerals is nice, except you do need a total of 550 gas mined for nydus, lair, speed. sounds iffy. maybe you can win some games vs weak opponents or if you catch them doing a stargate build, i dunno
Queen production shouldn't be a problem really. The second hatch can still make queens while you tech to lair and while the nydus cannel makes you can almost make 2 queens. Just 3 queens before going to lair, during lair make 2 at natural and then while nydus builds make 2 more. Send all 7 in while making the last two which continue injecting while you're attacking. I think it will be a good allin to throw in occasionally especially if you scout quick air.
I'm wondering if at some maps like korhal compound you can't just walk your queens over or possibly make some fast creep high way by going lair while you have your overlords placed in a line from your base to his. Poop creep with your overlords when you hit lair, walk your queens over while laying some tumors and attack with queens + lings, something like that. Queens as an offensive unit defintely merit some investigation as stats wise they are super efficient, only their speed holds them down.
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Thanks a lot. Great post!
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5 range seems kinda crazy...the off creep range should be 3 so the queen doesn't become an offensive unit
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On May 11 2012 03:53 Mystgun wrote:
5 range seems kinda crazy...the off creep range should be 3 so the queen doesn't become an offensive unit
Yeah beacuse walking queens off creep as an offensive unit will be viable as hell. Hopefully they'll arrive at your base before you got 200/200 carriers.
(if you want to nydus queens, it will be so late in the game that their +2 range will hardly matter, they're not useful at that point for anything but injects or chasing voidrays)
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So queen vs. hellion I wanted to talk about and I think some people think hellion openings are ruined but they are far from it. Here is the thing, I watch so many pro ZvT's that they pretty much all play out the same. The best koreans are doing hellion expand into double CC double engi bay and are completely safe. If zerg counters with roach bane it's just not nearly effective as a hellion/marauder timing and with your rax you can make 2 marauders and be super safe or cut corners and hope the zerg doesn't all-in which they usually don't. The main reason why terran has an advantage is because of mule. If zerg all-ins, both races will be even on workers but terran will have double or even triple mule to allow them to overkill bunker production. So you have a super safe terran getting way ahead in economy and upgrades. If zerg wants to keep up with upgrades they can go double evo but the lings they are using still won't be effective for sometime because of the hellions. Now that I explained that, I want to discuss the outcome of all this.
This really has nothing to do with the hellion opening. It's stating that since this power build exists, there's no reason for anyone to complain as long as they do this build cause it's just so fucking good. It's filled with so much garbage bias such as "just not nearly effective as a hellion marauder timing"; (to paraphrase): "Mules and bunkers mean you can hold everything, and if you try to keep up in upgrades it doesn't work because hellions are really good against zerglings."
It doesn't talk about hellion openings in general, it's just an out of place explanation of why one follow up to the hellion opening is so fucking good and why Zerg can't do anything about it.
You will normally see in a game like 4 hellions vs 1-2 queens + spine crawler. Usually the hellions seeing this, will just hover out side the natural denying creep, this WON'T change. The biggest difference might be zergs cutting corners and getting 1 queen + spine or just 2 queens but queens are still slower than hellions on creep and run bys will still be incredibly powerful. Terrans might just go for 6-8 hellions as an opener instead of 4 to increase their chances of damage. Hellion run by's have the potential to roast all your drones at the cost of 4 hellions but it's worth it because you gain scouting information and the zerg WILL lose mining time even if no drones die and are pulled and split perfectly.
just my 2cents coming from a masters zerg perspective.
Then he gives an obvious statement about about how hellions aren't going to want to poke up the ramp or choke to get hit by the static defense, and then gives a nonsensical argument that the changes doesn't matter since Terran players can just run in and kill all the Drones, and that somehow it's okay even if you lose the hellions for no drone kills (which is complete bullshit).
Why are you putting this stupid post into a very informative thread?
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On May 11 2012 05:03 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +So queen vs. hellion I wanted to talk about and I think some people think hellion openings are ruined but they are far from it. Here is the thing, I watch so many pro ZvT's that they pretty much all play out the same. The best koreans are doing hellion expand into double CC double engi bay and are completely safe. If zerg counters with roach bane it's just not nearly effective as a hellion/marauder timing and with your rax you can make 2 marauders and be super safe or cut corners and hope the zerg doesn't all-in which they usually don't. The main reason why terran has an advantage is because of mule. If zerg all-ins, both races will be even on workers but terran will have double or even triple mule to allow them to overkill bunker production. So you have a super safe terran getting way ahead in economy and upgrades. If zerg wants to keep up with upgrades they can go double evo but the lings they are using still won't be effective for sometime because of the hellions. Now that I explained that, I want to discuss the outcome of all this. This really has nothing to do with the hellion opening. It's stating that since this power build exists, there's no reason for anyone to complain as long as they do this build cause it's just so fucking good. It's filled with so much garbage bias such as "just not nearly effective as a hellion marauder timing"; (to paraphrase): "Mules and bunkers mean you can hold everything, and if you try to keep up in upgrades it doesn't work because hellions are really good against zerglings." It doesn't talk about hellion openings in general, it's just an out of place explanation of why one follow up to the hellion opening is so fucking good and why Zerg can't do anything about it. Show nested quote +You will normally see in a game like 4 hellions vs 1-2 queens + spine crawler. Usually the hellions seeing this, will just hover out side the natural denying creep, this WON'T change. The biggest difference might be zergs cutting corners and getting 1 queen + spine or just 2 queens but queens are still slower than hellions on creep and run bys will still be incredibly powerful. Terrans might just go for 6-8 hellions as an opener instead of 4 to increase their chances of damage. Hellion run by's have the potential to roast all your drones at the cost of 4 hellions but it's worth it because you gain scouting information and the zerg WILL lose mining time even if no drones die and are pulled and split perfectly.
just my 2cents coming from a masters zerg perspective. Then he gives an obvious statement about about how hellions aren't going to want to poke up the ramp or choke to get hit by the static defense, and then gives a nonsensical argument that the changes doesn't matter since Terran players can just run in and kill all the Drones, and that somehow it's okay even if you lose the hellions for no drone kills (which is complete bullshit). Why are you putting this stupid post into a very informative thread?
He puts it in, because people would bring it up no matter what.
And what you say has nothing to do with hellions, has in fact a lot to do with hellions:
-) Hellions are what "forces" Zerg to go roach/bling instead of the earlier, more costefficient ling/bling for an allin.
-) Hellions are what give you most of the needed scouting information:
- fast 3base
- 2 base tech
- 2 base allin
-) Hellion runbys, mass hellion allins etc. are not affected by a lot, because they will still do nearly as much damage as now (it's going to be like 2 more queen hits when you runby - that's like 16 damage more), so zerg still has to be prepared for those
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On May 11 2012 05:27 Big J wrote:
He puts it in, because people would bring it up no matter what.
And what you say has nothing to do with hellions, has in fact a lot to do with hellions:
-) Hellions are what "forces" Zerg to go roach/bling instead of the earlier, more costefficient ling/bling for an allin.
-) Hellions are what give you most of the needed scouting information:
- fast 3base
- 2 base tech
- 2 base allin
-) Hellion runbys, mass hellion allins etc. are not affected by a lot, because they will still do nearly as much damage as now (it's going to be like 2 more queen hits when you runby - that's like 16 damage more), so zerg still has to be prepared for those
zzzzz.
Unfortunately most of emcsk's reddit post does not have anything to do with what you just said, even though what you said is true.
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god this is probably one of my favorite patches, thanks for posting :D
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Holy crap. When I first saw the "update" I didn't think much of it. Maybe due to the fact I don't play zerg. Somebody should do one on the impact of the 10sec reduction on the observer.
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Great theorycrafting and so quick!
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On May 11 2012 05:49 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 05:27 Big J wrote:
He puts it in, because people would bring it up no matter what.
And what you say has nothing to do with hellions, has in fact a lot to do with hellions:
-) Hellions are what "forces" Zerg to go roach/bling instead of the earlier, more costefficient ling/bling for an allin.
-) Hellions are what give you most of the needed scouting information:
- fast 3base
- 2 base tech
- 2 base allin
-) Hellion runbys, mass hellion allins etc. are not affected by a lot, because they will still do nearly as much damage as now (it's going to be like 2 more queen hits when you runby - that's like 16 damage more), so zerg still has to be prepared for those zzzzz. Unfortunately most of emcsk's reddit post does not have anything to do with what you just said, even though what you said is true.
It has everything to do with what he said. It's just that it's common knowledge and doesn't need to be explained to people that either play the game or watch pro gamers. He talks about scenarios that exist purely because of the presence of the helion contain.The helion openers are forcing zergs to do all in builds or not spread creep until much later. This will not change much in the patch. 2 queens still wont be able to chase away 4 helions without a spine crawler. Terran will however pay with hp on his helions any time he wants to dive in and rightclick some building tumors unlike before.
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United States7166 Posts
just got home and tested it, they did improve the animation a bit. So it's actually slightly better now to stutter step with queens then to just let them attack, if you dont screw it up (time it so you move the queen just as you hear the 2nd attack hit).
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Interesting stuff, thank you for taking the time to test and post.
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Good to know. Thanks for posting
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the best thing is 4v4 and massing queens.
U haven't lived until u see 200 supply worth of queens drop onto tanks from overlords
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I hope blizzard realizes the queen buff was the dumbest thing they've ever done. Hellion opening is absolutely useless now. Considering in TvZ the Z is more favored( according to blizzards statistics they released last week) then they go and buff the favored race? That's quite dumb because that just killed an entire opening. Absolutely unacceptable.. why is blizzard racist? i mean really Z buffs every time they cry
User was warned for this post
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On May 11 2012 12:28 CFCryptos wrote:
I hope blizzard realizes the queen buff was the dumbest thing they've ever done. Hellion opening is absolutely useless now. Considering in TvZ the Z is more favored( according to blizzards statistics they released last week) then they go and buff the favored race? That's quite dumb because that just killed an entire opening. Absolutely unacceptable.. why is blizzard racist? i mean really Z buffs every time they cry
This is probably the dumbest comment so far. You must be a very low rank to be speaking about this like its something game-breaking. Not to mention your comment on Z being favored is just flat-out made-up (and very incorrect). Only pro-gamers are really qualified to speak about balance and none of them are complaining about this so far.
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Best thread Ive read in years gonna be very useful for me thx
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I agree pros are more affected than I by small changes like this, it won't even change my gameplay so we can say I deal with it better than pros so I'm more skilled than pros.
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z buffs everytime they cry? lol zerg hasnt gotten a buff in a while that actually meant something you obviously dont follow the patches much
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awesome thread thanks so much
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On May 10 2012 16:44 Zelniq wrote:I'm having fun theorycrafting the idea of mass queens. Doesn't sound that bad, as long as you can nydus them over or have good creep spread. Transfuses make up for the less than ideal DPS-per-cost of the unit. Their dps is quite decent, and gain +2 dmg per upgrade. Heh at lvl 3 attack they almost double their damage. Too bad its split into 2 attacks though so armor is twice as effective. But with anti-air, 1 armor and good HP, creep tumors and Transfuse working very well with other queens, I dunno sounds kind of decent
Thanks for the amazingly awesome and useful tips. I've also been interested in how the changes in queens change things in HoTS. Mass queens via nydus and transfuse abuse might be all worth it.
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godly post. all very interesting and helpful information. In particular the part you said that wasnt worth reading. It's understanding small nuances like that, that will help a player improve their game. Great writeup, thank you.
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Ive played a fair amount with the new queens and I used to always go 14/14 in ZvZ but atm I just dont think it is as viable anymore, if you want to do some runby's just as you get speed to pick of 1-2 drones with ur first 6-8 lings vs a fast expand you wont really get anything done beacuse of the range change. I wouldnt be suprised if we see A LOT more early hatches in zvz since queens snipe banelings in seconds. Mid masters player
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Excellent post. Thank you. I love the theorycrafting
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The Queen ground attack animation looks really dumb now. They need to do something about it, or change the description on the Queen's ground attack so it doesn't say "Talons."
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Is it fair to say that Terran is the most nerfed and Zerg over the time since released has been the most buffed? So now you can't scout the zerg, and the made it easier for the zerg to scout you, nice. Good job Blizzard. How do you deny creep spread now? How do you slow down zerg macro w/o being able to effectively use hellions? We'll just have to see how this plays out.
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Thanks for the research man. Very useful for a law student Zerg who doesn't have much time to play to figure this stuff out on his own.
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On May 12 2012 03:08 Schematic wrote:
Is it fair to say that Terran is the most nerfed and Zerg over the time since released has been the most buffed? So now you can't scout the zerg, and the made it easier for the zerg to scout you, nice. Good job Blizzard. How do you deny creep spread now? How do you slow down zerg macro w/o being able to effectively use hellions? We'll just have to see how this plays out.
LOL, terrans have this thing called 'scan', no? Don't complain about the cost, zergs will sac overlords for scouting too.
For the rest was it good that something was done about hellion harassment. The amount of micro needed to stop hellion harass was not in proportion to what it took to stop it, concerning the units involved and the consequences it had. It was really painful to watch mineral lines getting roasted because of small mistakes - now that is evened out a little.
Anyway, incredible useful thread, thanks a lot! Very useful to know these OL timings, they'll come to great use. Cheers for all the work you put in!
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On May 12 2012 03:51 arie3000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 03:08 Schematic wrote:
Is it fair to say that Terran is the most nerfed and Zerg over the time since released has been the most buffed? So now you can't scout the zerg, and the made it easier for the zerg to scout you, nice. Good job Blizzard. How do you deny creep spread now? How do you slow down zerg macro w/o being able to effectively use hellions? We'll just have to see how this plays out. LOL, terrans have this thing called 'scan', no? Don't complain about the cost, zergs will sac overlords for scouting too. For the rest was it good that something was done about hellion harassment. The amount of micro needed to stop hellion harass was not in proportion to what it took to stop it, concerning the units involved and the consequences it had. It was really painful to watch mineral lines getting roasted because of small mistakes - now that is evened out a little. Anyway, incredible useful thread, thanks a lot! Very useful to know these OL timings, they'll come to great use. Cheers for all the work you put in!
Some people would rather piss away infinite units and do blind timings than drop a scan. To each their own. If (s)he's convinced (s)he can't scout, let him/her live in his/her imagination land. Don't let it bother you too much.
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T player here. Thanks to OP for the useful insight in the effects of the recent balance changes.
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Queen drop all day baby :D did you know you can fit these huge beasts 4 at each overlord? poor things, must be so tight inside. Queens per supply are awesome if you fight on creep, and you can actually spread creep all over the map using queen drops.
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On May 12 2012 01:51 BronzeKnee wrote:
The Queen ground attack animation looks really dumb now. They need to do something about it, or change the description on the Queen's ground attack so it doesn't say "Talons."
I wish it was like the roach attack where close range was the old animation and long range is the new one.
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This is cool stuff, thanks.
I'm also curious how far you can get the 2nd overlord (ie 9 overlord) if you send it directly to their base or wherever (maybe we assume you keep a drone at natural to spot for shenanigans like bunkers). I hate maps where you can't send 2 overlords, you absolutely need one to spot nat and one to sac to main, that's the issue.
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1. queens dont need good dps since they are incredibly good tanks. They are psionic so no bonus damage against them + good health + transfuse (which you will get alot if you make them as units) + 1 armor.
2. overlords can actually transport units remember? Overlords are even better for transporting queens since they also can generate creep.
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I am not sure that anyone has pointed this out, but increasing slow overlord speed has (obviously) very slighly decreased the value of Pneumatized Carapace, the overlord speed upgrade. Perhaps players who tend to get this upgrade early will be happy delaying it longer (obviously it will always be an upgrade you should eventually get in the late game).
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Thank you very much for your effort! Much appreciated.
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On May 12 2012 04:03 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 03:51 arie3000 wrote:On May 12 2012 03:08 Schematic wrote:
Is it fair to say that Terran is the most nerfed and Zerg over the time since released has been the most buffed? So now you can't scout the zerg, and the made it easier for the zerg to scout you, nice. Good job Blizzard. How do you deny creep spread now? How do you slow down zerg macro w/o being able to effectively use hellions? We'll just have to see how this plays out. LOL, terrans have this thing called 'scan', no? Don't complain about the cost, zergs will sac overlords for scouting too. For the rest was it good that something was done about hellion harassment. The amount of micro needed to stop hellion harass was not in proportion to what it took to stop it, concerning the units involved and the consequences it had. It was really painful to watch mineral lines getting roasted because of small mistakes - now that is evened out a little. Anyway, incredible useful thread, thanks a lot! Very useful to know these OL timings, they'll come to great use. Cheers for all the work you put in! Some people would rather piss away infinite units and do blind timings than drop a scan. To each their own. If (s)he's convinced (s)he can't scout, let him/her live in his/her imagination land. Don't let it bother you too much.
well in that case i'm protoss and we almost always do a blind timing, or better we guess what enemy has by knowing how many expansions or some units that enemy let's protoss see...
it's pretty hard and we lost some dumb games because of that...even pros lose some game because they have no ideia of a all-in coming...like EG.Huk in the last performance in GSL...
that's the truth, we protoss should have a way to see what enemy is doing...going robo just for observer is ridicusly if u are doing a blink/templar timing...other races don't suffer with that...well
nice timings on the post...good to know even if i'm protoss...
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Z now can take thirds with only queens and tumors can't be killed without a scan. <3 tvz
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EPT
