EPT[G] PvZ - Small timing attack thread with VODs - Page 3
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QNdie
Poland210 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
I think if you go up to 36 probes, delay the core slightly to get one more probe out, you could do a similar timing but with 8 gates. still, 3 cb on WG would be optimal, i'd think. those extra 4 probes would push the gates back and consequently there would be even lesser a need to add cb to WG. I could mess around with pylon before gate and i think this would make 4 cb on WG optimal, especially if you were to go up to 36 probes Eifersuchtig- will try this out. i don't have much experience with doing those 2 gas timings so i appreciate your input; hexsc2- will do a double stargate out of 4g +1 next thanks firefoxys- i don't understand what build you are comparing to the one that you propose. the only one that has blink has +2, hits harder and has an observer as well as a faster 4g +1. 3 gas blink builds have their place but if the z goes for a fast burrow you are in a tight spot. with good burrow micro the zerg should not lose the third, and even if he does, he can rally enough while the injured roaches are burrowed to run you over and you don't have the infrastructure to keep up in the mid game | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 01 2012 23:36 Alejandrisha wrote: Markwerf- the vod has 3 cb on WG. as it stands, the core is early enough such that 3 is all you need to get it to finish in time with the gates. I think if you go up to 36 probes, delay the core slightly to get one more probe out, you could do a similar timing but with 8 gates. still, 3 cb on WG would be optimal, i'd think. those extra 4 probes would push the gates back and consequently there would be even lesser a need to add cb to WG. I could mess around with pylon before gate and i think this would make 4 cb on WG optimal, especially if you were to go up to 36 probes No it's definately mandatory to CB warpgate as much as possible for the zealot/stalker timing, the faster it is the better it simply is. Besides you don't have anything else to use chrono on that matters so why not do it? It's not neccesary to have all 7 gates ready for the first warp in round, I just make sure i have 4 gates ready for first round and other 3 for second round. The first round being as fast as possible is just essential as the faster that is the faster you can get aggressive and do damage. Knocking off 10 to 20 seconds for free basically (you want to chrono yourself into your probe cut otherwise?) is fantastic and should always be done. Chrononing nexi just before probe cuts is another one of those classic mistakes way too many people make, the 3rd chrono on nexus at the start of the builds is already a waste of chrono for example, it only gets you 5 to 10 minerals more at most in the beginning while needlessly delaying nexus a bit and wasting a chrono. If you feel it's neccesary it's fine to cut probes for a while to get some gates up faster but not going up to 36 while your gates are already down is just plain bad, you have enough money for your first warp in anyway and those probes pay themselves back for the second round anyways, before saturation probes pay themselves back in about a minute after all. 8 gates is just a plain waste by the way, 7 gates is already a bit much for 36 probes, if you're macro is really solid and you're making mostly stalkers (which you should) 6 gates would even be fine but 7 is a good number as don't need to macro as well then. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:20 Markwerf wrote: No it's definately mandatory to CB warpgate as much as possible for the zealot/stalker timing, the faster it is the better it simply is. Besides you don't have anything else to use chrono on that matters so why not do it? It's not neccesary to have all 7 gates ready for the first warp in round, I just make sure i have 4 gates ready for first round and other 3 for second round. The first round being as fast as possible is just essential as the faster that is the faster you can get aggressive and do damage. Knocking off 10 to 20 seconds for free basically (you want to chrono yourself into your probe cut otherwise?) is fantastic and should always be done. Chrononing nexi just before probe cuts is another one of those classic mistakes way too many people make, the 3rd chrono on nexus at the start of the builds is already a waste of chrono for example, it only gets you 5 to 10 minerals more at most in the beginning while needlessly delaying nexus a bit and wasting a chrono. If you feel it's neccesary it's fine to cut probes for a while to get some gates up faster but not going up to 36 while your gates are already down is just plain bad, you have enough money for your first warp in anyway and those probes pay themselves back for the second round anyways, before saturation probes pay themselves back in about a minute after all. 8 gates is just a plain waste by the way, 7 gates is already a bit much for 36 probes, if you're macro is really solid and you're making mostly stalkers (which you should) 6 gates would even be fine but 7 is a good number as don't need to macro as well then. are you suggesting 16 nexus rather than 17 nexus? i don't see how the 3rd cb here is wasted. when are the first 3 gates started such that you can warp in with them with a 5x cb'd core, have 36 probes and also get out the rest of the gates with good timing? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:30 Alejandrisha wrote: are you suggesting 16 nexus rather than 17 nexus? i don't see how the 3rd cb here is wasted. when are the first 3 gates started such that you can warp in with them with a 5x cb'd core, have 36 probes and also get out the rest of the gates with good timing? Well the 3rd cb doesn't really do anything because it only means probe 16 and 17 get out slightly earlier and then your probe cut is only longer. Given that probe 16 and 17 getting out earlier doesn't even mean 10 minerals extra mined it's most likely better to indeed go 16 nexus 17 forge then 17 nexus 17 forge. Anyway that's nitpicking and doesn't really matter much. As for adding gates just add 2 till 4 after asap after making stalking and then add 5 to 7 after making your second stalker. First 4 gates are ready for first warpin, then gates 5 to 7 are ready for second warpin. You could also cut the second stalker and add gate 5 earlier but that pans out practically the same way (normally making second stalker is much safer against an incoming all-in though where you stick to 4 gates and add cannons instead, you can hold allins this way i think). | ||
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Obamanation666
United States70 Posts
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lazyo
Germany90 Posts
PREFACE The idea for it came when I watched GSL sometime last year, I think it was MC that I saw doing a sentry and +2 blink allin off of 4gas. It's basically an 8 gate 6 sentry, blinkstalker allin with 44 probes that hits much earlier and with more power (forcefields) than other blink builds. THE BUILD As far as the opening goes I do* 9 Pylon You should arrive at the zerg's third at ~10:00 with blink done and +2 finishing shortly after that, having around 8 forcefields in your bag and soon 4 more if you keep your sentries alive. * Of course any other forge expand with a similar gas timing will do as well but it might push your attack timing back by a few seconds MACRO + Show Spoiler + It is CRITICAL that you have exactly 16 probes per mineral line and 12 probes on gas in total, otherwise you will most likely screw over the build. If you are fighting the key engagement it's not so bad to miss your WG cooldown by a few seconds, 8 gates will allow for small mistakes in that. If you have traded well and you feel you can do without 2 more stalkers, add a robo incase he is going burrow. MICRO + Show Spoiler + If you can, get as close to his 3rd hatchery as possible, you want to use it to help you cut off parts of his army. Keep your sentries in a seperate control group and always put stalkers in front, this push is very fragile until your second full waprin arrives. If you meet a wall of spines (more than 2) drop 2-3 forcefields in front of them and focus them down with stalkers, blinking back upon shield loss. If your blink micro is not very good I strongly recommend you avoid this build as you will get crushed before you reach critical mass. FOLLOWUP + Show Spoiler + If you have done significant damage but are hesitant to go for the kill move or the zerg just abandoned his third and a wall of spines meets you at the natural: Resume probe production, clear your third of zerg scouting and take it, bring your sentry count back up to about 5, chrono immortals and start +3. If you lost your entire army without doing very significant damage there is not much you can do but hope the zerg overdrones and you can kill him with insane micro. | ||
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Zedrewo
Sweden12 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
On May 02 2012 09:39 lazyo wrote: If you want you can add my variation on a blink +2 all in. I don't quite feel I have it mapped out as to warrant a full guide so I'll just post it here. PREFACE The idea for it came when I watched GSL sometime last year, I think it was MC that I saw doing a sentry and +2 blink allin off of 4gas. It's basically an 8 gate 6 sentry, blinkstalker allin with 44 probes that hits much earlier and with more power (forcefields) than other blink builds. THE BUILD + Show Spoiler + As far as the opening goes I do* 9 Pylon You should arrive at the zerg's third at ~10:00 with blink done and +2 finishing shortly after that, having around 8 forcefields in your bag and soon 4 more if you keep your sentries alive. * Of course any other forge expand with a similar gas timing will do as well but it might push your attack timing back by a few seconds MACRO + Show Spoiler + It is CRITICAL that you have exactly 16 probes per mineral line and 12 probes on gas in total, otherwise you will most likely screw over the build. If you are fighting the key engagement it's not so bad to miss your WG cooldown by a few seconds, 8 gates will allow for small mistakes in that. If you have traded well and you feel you can do without 2 more stalkers, add a robo incase he is going burrow. MICRO + Show Spoiler + If you can, get as close to his 3rd hatchery as possible, you want to use it to help you cut off parts of his army. Keep your sentries in a seperate control group and always put stalkers in front, this push is very fragile until your second full waprin arrives. If you meet a wall of spines (more than 2) drop 2-3 forcefields in front of them and focus them down with stalkers, blinking back upon shield loss. If your blink micro is not very good I strongly recommend you avoid this build as you will get crushed before you reach critical mass. FOLLOWUP + Show Spoiler + If you have done significant damage but are hesitant to go for the kill move or the zerg just abandoned his third and a wall of spines meets you at the natural: Resume probe production, clear your third of zerg scouting and take it, bring your sentry count back up to about 5, chrono immortals and start +3. If you lost your entire army without doing very significant damage there is not much you can do but hope the zerg overdrones and you can kill him with insane micro. I don't quite understand the difference between yours and the one Alej posted. Other than you have less probes and you got no robo, does that play a huge role in the effectiveness of this all-in? Anyone could enlighten me as to the pros and cons of each, my analytical skills are not there yet. As you both state, MC uses them both, if I wanted to attempt one of these builds, is there something I scout that would indicate which build to go for? | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
On May 02 2012 12:17 Zedrewo wrote: What are you supposed to do if the zerg makes a few more zerglings or upgrades speed and catches your probe which's gonna make a proxy pylon? Do you still proceed the initial 4gate push or do you switch play? When should you avoid proceeding with the initial 4gate push? Is there a read you can do to go for a 3rd nexus instead of the 2base timing? That's generally where the initial WG units come in. 2 stalkers 1 zealot, or 1 stalker 2 zealots etc should always be used as "cover" to either get a probe out on the map, or to allow your already hidden one to make closer pylons. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
I love you all. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
Seriously, were you hiding in my room this past week and watching me failing against Zerg or something?  The timing of this thread going up is perfect for my current struggles. Thanks. | ||
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Zedrewo
Sweden12 Posts
On May 02 2012 14:58 AegiS_ wrote: That's generally where the initial WG units come in. 2 stalkers 1 zealot, or 1 stalker 2 zealots etc should always be used as "cover" to either get a probe out on the map, or to allow your already hidden one to make closer pylons. Yeah. But I mean, what if the zerg makes enough units to take this little force out? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 02 2012 18:33 Zedrewo wrote: Yeah. But I mean, what if the zerg makes enough units to take this little force out? Then you just want to warp in a round of units at home and take a bit more time to get a good proxy pylon up. You should always try to have a plyon on the cliff of your main or somewhere halfway through the map to get units at least somewhere close. If they are on 3 base and make substantial amount of units early they are screwing themselves a lot and it's not that bad your push is delayed a little. | ||
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:49 Firefoxys wrote: Goodday, These builds are fairly old and i personaly use a different one from desRow who has seen it on ladder alot from other korean protosses. Its a 4 gate+1 zealot push into a 7 gate blink +2 allin of 3 gas. Which is slightly different from other allins because of 1 extra gas and +2 which gives your push a bit more strenght and a higher stalker count because of the 3th gas here u go might be able to add this to your guide Yeah definetely agree i like his korean versions much more and obviously are much more effective with proper execution  | ||
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Bodzio90
Poland1 Post
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lazyo
Germany90 Posts
On May 02 2012 13:41 deadmau wrote: I don't quite understand the difference between yours and the one Alej posted. Other than you have less probes and you got no robo, does that play a huge role in the effectiveness of this all-in? Anyone could enlighten me as to the pros and cons of each, my analytical skills are not there yet. As you both state, MC uses them both, if I wanted to attempt one of these builds, is there something I scout that would indicate which build to go for? Well the critical difference is in the earlier attack timing with more forcefields than the build in the OP. Also it does not apply any +1 zealot pressure, not forcing units from zerg at that timing. Furthermore, with having 2 more gateways but no robo you are more all-in but you have more room for macro slipups - Perfect blink micro will require most of your apm so that's sort of an added "safety". As far as scouting goes, there isn't really a solid indicator that will tell you what zerg will do with his 3base before you commit to either build - unless he lets u sneak probes into the main. You can definately use this build with slight variations against a zerg staying on 2 base though. I would add a second cannon after zealot and delay the 3rd and 4th gas as well as using 3 chrono on 3 sentries from your gateway instead of the double chrono on your nexi. You can delay blink a bit (the gas mining will work out that way) as it is a much quicker upgrade than +2. You should arrive at the zerg natural at the same time but with +2 not quite done - that timing is still early enough to catch most muta or infestor tech timings just as the tech units are hatching. If zerg hits you with any attack from 2base around 10minutes you have the benefit of having enough income and production to hold pretty much anything. Of course all the safety rules of playing vs no-3rd zerg still apply - cover your main incase of nydus, power your 3 additional gateways with not 1 but 2 pylons etc. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
edit: as well as trying out the variation of the 7gate suggested above | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 04 2012 11:05 Alejandrisha wrote: will be adding double stargate and dt transition out of 4g +1 shortly. any other requests? edit: as well as trying out the variation of the 7gate suggested above I would love to see a Dark Templar opening into Archon/Speed Zealot All-in! | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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