Outlining and doing some demonstration of the common 2 base all-ins in modern PvZ. Feel free to post comments, or link to VODs that show similar styles, or suggest similar timings that you would like me to outline.
For the sake of simplicity, we will assume standard 15 pool 16 hatch into 3 hatch before gas openers.
Enjoy!
4G +1 Into DT/+2
Build
9 Pylon 16 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Gateway 17 Pylon 18 Cannon 20-22 gases* 22-23 core* @100 gas start +1 @100 mins start zealot @100% core, start WG research (4 CB) @100% zealot, start stalker ~38, 3 gateways add 2 gases start TC @100% WG research, transform gates + warp in 4 zealots @100% TC, start DT shrine and +2
*these will differ based on how much you CB probes before core
You should warp in total 6-8 zealots unless you determine you can do more damage with additional warp-ins
squeeze in a few sentries before your DT warp in, start a robo and a few more gates since you can support much more than 4 gates and a robo with your econ right now. use your probe on the map to plant another hidden pylon for your DT warp in
Start +1 with your first 100 gas, and WG research with your next 50 gas.
1 or 2 Zealots and 1 stalker before adding gates
~36-38 (depending on 1-2 zealots) add 6 gates, and plenty of pylons (up to 76 food seems optimal)
Cut probes here. You have 32.(6 on gas, 13 at each line. one leaves to proxy)
Engage after 3 rounds of warp-ins
Chronoboosts
3 Before nexus 1 on nexus after adding gases 2 on Pre-WG gateway units 3 on WG research Use banked CB on Warpgates
Note: It seems optimal to pull 1 probe from each geyser after starting WG research, or shortly thereafter
Here's a small variation on 7Gate Zealot/Stalker It sacrifices +1 for a faster push, so your warp-ins will start faster, but your zealots won't be able to 2 shot lings.
Build:
9 pylon; scout 16 nexus 16 forge 17 gate 17 pylon 18 cannon 19 gas 20 core 24 2nd gas 26 zealot @100% core, WG research *30 - 2 probes in each gas @100% zealot, stalker *~34-35 when money allows, pylon add 3 gates add 2nd stalker or zealot add 3 gates
try to cut probes around 34
4Gate +1 zealot pressure into +2 6gate blink stalker with obs
This is one of MC's go-to transition out of 4Gate +1 zealot, but I don't have a vod ready to show TT
Start +1 with your first 100 gas, and WG research with your next 50 gas. 1 or 2 Zealots and 1 stalker before adding gates
~38-40 (depending on 1-2 zealots) add 3 gates, a proxy pylon and 2 in-base pylons resume probe production, add your twilight council, take your 2 additional gases and 2-3 more gates.
~46 warp in your 4 proxy zealots and add a robo.
When your TC finishes, start +2
After your 2nd zealot warp-in, start blink. Add four sentries with your next 4 WG cool downs. Start an observer and dump the rest of your resources and WG cool downs into additional Blink stalkers.
Cut probes at about 48-50
Go with +2 and blink.
Chronoboosts
3 Before nexus 2 on nexus after adding gases 2 on Pre-WG gateway units 3 on WG research 1-2 on +2 Use banked CB Warpgates
Start +1 with your first 100 gas, and WG research with your next 50 gas. 1 or 2 Zealots and 1 stalker before adding gates
~38-40 (depending on 1-2 zealots) add 3 gates, a proxy pylon and 2 in-base pylons resume probe production, add your robo, take your 2 additional gases
~46 warp in your 4 proxy zealots
After your 2nd zealot warp-in, begin robo production and start +1 armor. This will be an observer, two immortals, and then a warp prism. You will be able to afford gates 5-7 while your observer is training.
I recommend going up to 8 sentries before switching over to pure stalker/zealot production (stalkers as gas allows, zealots as gas does not allow).
Cut probes at 48-50.
Go when your 2nd immortal is out.
Chronoboosts
3 Before nexus 2 on nexus after adding gases 2 on Pre-WG gateway units 3 on WG research 0-1 on +1 armor; just make sure it's finished as 2nd immortal is leaving Use banked CB on robotics production and then Warpgates
2Gas +1 Zealot/Sentry-based 7 gate
oGsVINES used a timing similar to this in game 2 of the set mentioned earlier, but his got a few more probes out and went up to 4 gases (not exactly sure why, though O_O)
I copied the VINES one too, but haven't ever done the others. Will probably read and copy to improve my arsenal. I'll probably then allin monk when he offraces me next
Wow this looks cool. You always hear people talking about all the different Protoss all-ins but sometimes its hard to find cohesive guides for them. Thanks.
Once, again you deliver, do you guys get paid to do these for us ? Many Thanks To all the blue posters making the strategy guides. Your 3 colussus vs 3 hatch build was nice enough, now this.
i like my imortal sentry allin with out pressure, rather faking pressure is better cause when you arrive later he will have more stuff. Assuming zerg is defending the 4 gate pressure like any mid master zerg (well)
You say to engage after 3-warp ins. Should I be poking with my initial units to try and do damage or should I be hiding my warp-ins so he will under-prepare for my all-in? Also what do I do if they do something like early ling-speed to deny the warp-in pylons. Do I still commit or do I try and transition? This is obviously strictly talking about the 7-gates.
While I'm all for learning allins, with so many options I can see why David Kim said Protoss players are in generally developing more slowly. Learn a ton of 2 base allins -> have them figured out after a few months and have Zerg finally either find a timing to punish them or reach hive safely and then -> mad qq about Stephano roaches (the ONE good timing that you can't just stop by ez mode some cannons) or qq about brood lord infestors. I think either Alej or Monk also commented along the same vein, toss players have been lazy. So if you just choose from a set of allins, don't be surprised when you start losing. Great guide btw.
cool guide. one thing i've noticed in PvZ recently against good zergs, is that 2 base all ins / timings don't really work esp on maps where the zerg can scout your natural's gas easily (daybreak, cloud kingdom etc). they've practiced the 3 hatch no-gas opening soooo many times now that they're pretty solid at holding off any 2 base timings.
still very usefull to throw in an all in in a BoX after a few macro games, as most zergs will start playing too greedy.
These builds are fairly old and i personaly use a different one from desRow who has seen it on ladder alot from other korean protosses.
Its a 4 gate+1 zealot push into a 7 gate blink +2 allin of 3 gas. Which is slightly different from other allins because of 1 extra gas and +2 which gives your push a bit more strenght and a higher stalker count because of the 3th gas
I actually do the +1 Zealot/Stalker 7/8 gate constantly on ladder versus Zergs after HuK did it at Winter Arena. Such an effective build against Masters, especially if they over commit on drones.
what about a +1 zealot atk and get double stargate as roaches are being forced to be made. A couple can be sent to 3rd while a couple can be sent to the nat. Just asking because I have had some success with it on the ladder. Mind if I post a replay of it?
does anyone else notice, that these are all just all ins? dont do them you'll just get worse at the game, just learn some macro builds, unless u just wanna be awful at the game!
I'll echo the sentiment that the Protoss blue posters are so good it makes me feel sorry for the TL users of the other races. Thanks for the great posts!
On May 01 2012 07:47 xOny wrote: cool guide. one thing i've noticed in PvZ recently against good zergs, is that 2 base all ins / timings don't really work esp on maps where the zerg can scout your natural's gas easily (daybreak, cloud kingdom etc). they've practiced the 3 hatch no-gas opening soooo many times now that they're pretty solid at holding off any 2 base timings.
still very usefull to throw in an all in in a BoX after a few macro games, as most zergs will start playing too greedy.
The thing about Zerg end game is that Protoss players have yet to figure out a viable/non gimmicky way to combat the mass spine/BL/infestor/corruptor army that zerg can obtain past the 20 minute mark. What better proof for that than HerO's game vs Dimaga on Ohana in the NASL. HerO pretty much tried everything and mined out the map trying to crack Dima's defenses and just simply couldn't. This leads Protoss to stick to 2 base timings which is what historically have worked at the highest levels.
On May 01 2012 07:47 xOny wrote: cool guide. one thing i've noticed in PvZ recently against good zergs, is that 2 base all ins / timings don't really work esp on maps where the zerg can scout your natural's gas easily (daybreak, cloud kingdom etc). they've practiced the 3 hatch no-gas opening soooo many times now that they're pretty solid at holding off any 2 base timings.
still very usefull to throw in an all in in a BoX after a few macro games, as most zergs will start playing too greedy.
The thing about Zerg end game is that Protoss players have yet to figure out a viable/non gimmicky way to combat the mass spine/BL/infestor/corruptor army that zerg can obtain past the 20 minute mark. What better proof for that than HerO's game vs Dimaga on Ohana in the NASL. HerO pretty much tried everything and mined out the map trying to crack Dima's defenses and just simply couldn't. This leads Protoss to stick to 2 base timings which is what historically have worked at the highest levels.
Very misinformed post. Protoss players know how to deal with end game zerg compositions (mothership + archons, if you see mass spines just get more bases and get a super-army).. the problem is more getting to that point without being behind. 2 base timings have not worked out very well recently for Protoss players, again because Zergs know exactly how to react to most all timings now with their easily mapped-out 3 hatch no gas build.
Without mothership though, yes, protoss has no way to deal with mass upgraded BL / corrupter / infestor.
The first build posted - the 7gate. The vod isn't of an optimal warpin. Huk also did a suboptimal version of the build. You can get 4 gates to warpin at 7:12 and the other three at 7:20 if you do an optimal version. I distinctly remember those numbers, thinking holy shit at the time. I'll try and find a replay. I think the reason is a difference in allocation of chrono boost. Just letting you know there are "better" versions. Hit slightly earlier with 9/10th the strength and +1 finishing at 8:00.
Nice thread. Can you give average timings for when they hit? I feel that would be useful to benchmark ourselves, and also for Zergs who might happen to read this thread.
I realise forge timing, the Zerg's opener and any early pressure will shift them a little, but ballparks would still be informative.
Good guide to some basic protoss all-ins, especially very useful for zerg as well to know what timings are neccesary to stop certain attacks and what cues for scouting are done. The 7 gate zealot/stalker all-in I do quite often because it flat out wins practically all my games vs zerg and i'm a bit fed up off the macro games where you have to hit into a massive spine wall with broods otherwise. A few things which can be more efficient I think: - 2nd pylon should be before gate. Probe cut is bigger then neccesary and the gate is too early anyway otherwise since you can't afford cyber upon completion of gate with your timing anyway. - You should definately probe up to 36 and not stop at 32, those 4 extra probes pay off themselves before you start warping in basically and just give you a more solid economy, there is absolutely no reason not to get them as they mine at full efficiency. Putting 2 probes in each geyser after getting 150 is recommended for sure, the difference is really minor but it just seems to work out with a better mineral/gas ratio then. Too gas heavy is always worse then too mineral heavy afterall with these rushes and you want to have no resources unspent. - Personal preference: I get 2 stalkers out of the first gate. This means I won't have all my gates ready before the first warpin but unit wise it evens out as i have 1 more unit. The extra stalker makes it easier to secure the proxy pylon and makes the build much safer against an unexpected all-in from the zerg (though you would generally only do this build after scouting fast third, sometimes your probe dies before knowing for sure or they even fake something). - Ow and the guide for the 7 gate states 3 CB on warpgate tech but that should just be the full 5 really, which i think is in the VOD too
Small detail in general, you shouldn't be maynarding probes with a FFE build, this is such a common mistake I see. When the expo finishes your main isn't up to 22 probes yet anyway so you just waypoint both nexusses to the expansion and maynard nothing, in fact usually you even have to send 1 or 2 probes to main first still before sending all new probes to natural.
Anyway most of these things are small nitpickings, in general this guide is quite good and useful for setting benchmarks. Zergs should get their roach warren earlier then stephano timings in other threads suggest really for example.
Markwerf- the vod has 3 cb on WG. as it stands, the core is early enough such that 3 is all you need to get it to finish in time with the gates.
I think if you go up to 36 probes, delay the core slightly to get one more probe out, you could do a similar timing but with 8 gates. still, 3 cb on WG would be optimal, i'd think. those extra 4 probes would push the gates back and consequently there would be even lesser a need to add cb to WG.
I could mess around with pylon before gate and i think this would make 4 cb on WG optimal, especially if you were to go up to 36 probes
Eifersuchtig- will try this out. i don't have much experience with doing those 2 gas timings so i appreciate your input;
hexsc2- will do a double stargate out of 4g +1 next thanks
firefoxys- i don't understand what build you are comparing to the one that you propose. the only one that has blink has +2, hits harder and has an observer as well as a faster 4g +1. 3 gas blink builds have their place but if the z goes for a fast burrow you are in a tight spot. with good burrow micro the zerg should not lose the third, and even if he does, he can rally enough while the injured roaches are burrowed to run you over and you don't have the infrastructure to keep up in the mid game
On May 01 2012 23:36 Alejandrisha wrote: Markwerf- the vod has 3 cb on WG. as it stands, the core is early enough such that 3 is all you need to get it to finish in time with the gates.
I think if you go up to 36 probes, delay the core slightly to get one more probe out, you could do a similar timing but with 8 gates. still, 3 cb on WG would be optimal, i'd think. those extra 4 probes would push the gates back and consequently there would be even lesser a need to add cb to WG.
I could mess around with pylon before gate and i think this would make 4 cb on WG optimal, especially if you were to go up to 36 probes
No it's definately mandatory to CB warpgate as much as possible for the zealot/stalker timing, the faster it is the better it simply is. Besides you don't have anything else to use chrono on that matters so why not do it? It's not neccesary to have all 7 gates ready for the first warp in round, I just make sure i have 4 gates ready for first round and other 3 for second round. The first round being as fast as possible is just essential as the faster that is the faster you can get aggressive and do damage. Knocking off 10 to 20 seconds for free basically (you want to chrono yourself into your probe cut otherwise?) is fantastic and should always be done. Chrononing nexi just before probe cuts is another one of those classic mistakes way too many people make, the 3rd chrono on nexus at the start of the builds is already a waste of chrono for example, it only gets you 5 to 10 minerals more at most in the beginning while needlessly delaying nexus a bit and wasting a chrono. If you feel it's neccesary it's fine to cut probes for a while to get some gates up faster but not going up to 36 while your gates are already down is just plain bad, you have enough money for your first warp in anyway and those probes pay themselves back for the second round anyways, before saturation probes pay themselves back in about a minute after all. 8 gates is just a plain waste by the way, 7 gates is already a bit much for 36 probes, if you're macro is really solid and you're making mostly stalkers (which you should) 6 gates would even be fine but 7 is a good number as don't need to macro as well then.
On May 01 2012 23:36 Alejandrisha wrote: Markwerf- the vod has 3 cb on WG. as it stands, the core is early enough such that 3 is all you need to get it to finish in time with the gates.
I think if you go up to 36 probes, delay the core slightly to get one more probe out, you could do a similar timing but with 8 gates. still, 3 cb on WG would be optimal, i'd think. those extra 4 probes would push the gates back and consequently there would be even lesser a need to add cb to WG.
I could mess around with pylon before gate and i think this would make 4 cb on WG optimal, especially if you were to go up to 36 probes
No it's definately mandatory to CB warpgate as much as possible for the zealot/stalker timing, the faster it is the better it simply is. Besides you don't have anything else to use chrono on that matters so why not do it? It's not neccesary to have all 7 gates ready for the first warp in round, I just make sure i have 4 gates ready for first round and other 3 for second round. The first round being as fast as possible is just essential as the faster that is the faster you can get aggressive and do damage. Knocking off 10 to 20 seconds for free basically (you want to chrono yourself into your probe cut otherwise?) is fantastic and should always be done. Chrononing nexi just before probe cuts is another one of those classic mistakes way too many people make, the 3rd chrono on nexus at the start of the builds is already a waste of chrono for example, it only gets you 5 to 10 minerals more at most in the beginning while needlessly delaying nexus a bit and wasting a chrono. If you feel it's neccesary it's fine to cut probes for a while to get some gates up faster but not going up to 36 while your gates are already down is just plain bad, you have enough money for your first warp in anyway and those probes pay themselves back for the second round anyways, before saturation probes pay themselves back in about a minute after all. 8 gates is just a plain waste by the way, 7 gates is already a bit much for 36 probes, if you're macro is really solid and you're making mostly stalkers (which you should) 6 gates would even be fine but 7 is a good number as don't need to macro as well then.
are you suggesting 16 nexus rather than 17 nexus? i don't see how the 3rd cb here is wasted. when are the first 3 gates started such that you can warp in with them with a 5x cb'd core, have 36 probes and also get out the rest of the gates with good timing?
On May 01 2012 23:36 Alejandrisha wrote: Markwerf- the vod has 3 cb on WG. as it stands, the core is early enough such that 3 is all you need to get it to finish in time with the gates.
I think if you go up to 36 probes, delay the core slightly to get one more probe out, you could do a similar timing but with 8 gates. still, 3 cb on WG would be optimal, i'd think. those extra 4 probes would push the gates back and consequently there would be even lesser a need to add cb to WG.
I could mess around with pylon before gate and i think this would make 4 cb on WG optimal, especially if you were to go up to 36 probes
No it's definately mandatory to CB warpgate as much as possible for the zealot/stalker timing, the faster it is the better it simply is. Besides you don't have anything else to use chrono on that matters so why not do it? It's not neccesary to have all 7 gates ready for the first warp in round, I just make sure i have 4 gates ready for first round and other 3 for second round. The first round being as fast as possible is just essential as the faster that is the faster you can get aggressive and do damage. Knocking off 10 to 20 seconds for free basically (you want to chrono yourself into your probe cut otherwise?) is fantastic and should always be done. Chrononing nexi just before probe cuts is another one of those classic mistakes way too many people make, the 3rd chrono on nexus at the start of the builds is already a waste of chrono for example, it only gets you 5 to 10 minerals more at most in the beginning while needlessly delaying nexus a bit and wasting a chrono. If you feel it's neccesary it's fine to cut probes for a while to get some gates up faster but not going up to 36 while your gates are already down is just plain bad, you have enough money for your first warp in anyway and those probes pay themselves back for the second round anyways, before saturation probes pay themselves back in about a minute after all. 8 gates is just a plain waste by the way, 7 gates is already a bit much for 36 probes, if you're macro is really solid and you're making mostly stalkers (which you should) 6 gates would even be fine but 7 is a good number as don't need to macro as well then.
are you suggesting 16 nexus rather than 17 nexus? i don't see how the 3rd cb here is wasted. when are the first 3 gates started such that you can warp in with them with a 5x cb'd core, have 36 probes and also get out the rest of the gates with good timing?
Well the 3rd cb doesn't really do anything because it only means probe 16 and 17 get out slightly earlier and then your probe cut is only longer. Given that probe 16 and 17 getting out earlier doesn't even mean 10 minerals extra mined it's most likely better to indeed go 16 nexus 17 forge then 17 nexus 17 forge. Anyway that's nitpicking and doesn't really matter much. As for adding gates just add 2 till 4 after asap after making stalking and then add 5 to 7 after making your second stalker. First 4 gates are ready for first warpin, then gates 5 to 7 are ready for second warpin. You could also cut the second stalker and add gate 5 earlier but that pans out practically the same way (normally making second stalker is much safer against an incoming all-in though where you stick to 4 gates and add cannons instead, you can hold allins this way i think).
If you want you can add my variation on a blink +2 all in. I don't quite feel I have it mapped out as to warrant a full guide so I'll just post it here.
PREFACE The idea for it came when I watched GSL sometime last year, I think it was MC that I saw doing a sentry and +2 blink allin off of 4gas. It's basically an 8 gate 6 sentry, blinkstalker allin with 44 probes that hits much earlier and with more power (forcefields) than other blink builds.
THE BUILD As far as the opening goes I do*
9 Pylon 3 Chrono on probes 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon Resume probe production 19 Gateway 19 Cannon 20 Chrono Probes 21 Double gas 22 Transfer 4 probes to natural 23 Chrono both Nexi 26 Cybernetics Core
First 100 Gas on +1 Attack Next 50 on Warpgate ~30 Zealot (use it to sneak a probe into proxy pylon location) chrono +1 as often as possible @ +1 Attack half done: Twilight Council and 3rd gas Make 2 sentries from your Gateway 3 more gates to line up with Warpgate 4th Gas
When +1 is done: +2 Attack (chronod all the way) Blink (1 or 2 chronos on that) Add 4 more gateways Cut probes at 44 First warpin will be 4 sentries bringing you up to 6 Move out with the next warp in consisting of 4 stalkers.
You should arrive at the zerg's third at ~10:00 with blink done and +2 finishing shortly after that, having around 8 forcefields in your bag and soon 4 more if you keep your sentries alive.
* Of course any other forge expand with a similar gas timing will do as well but it might push your attack timing back by a few seconds
It is CRITICAL that you have exactly 16 probes per mineral line and 12 probes on gas in total, otherwise you will most likely screw over the build. If you are fighting the key engagement it's not so bad to miss your WG cooldown by a few seconds, 8 gates will allow for small mistakes in that. If you have traded well and you feel you can do without 2 more stalkers, add a robo incase he is going burrow.
If you can, get as close to his 3rd hatchery as possible, you want to use it to help you cut off parts of his army. Keep your sentries in a seperate control group and always put stalkers in front, this push is very fragile until your second full waprin arrives. If you meet a wall of spines (more than 2) drop 2-3 forcefields in front of them and focus them down with stalkers, blinking back upon shield loss. If your blink micro is not very good I strongly recommend you avoid this build as you will get crushed before you reach critical mass.
If you have done significant damage but are hesitant to go for the kill move or the zerg just abandoned his third and a wall of spines meets you at the natural: Resume probe production, clear your third of zerg scouting and take it, bring your sentry count back up to about 5, chrono immortals and start +3. If you lost your entire army without doing very significant damage there is not much you can do but hope the zerg overdrones and you can kill him with insane micro.
What are you supposed to do if the zerg makes a few more zerglings or upgrades speed and catches your probe which's gonna make a proxy pylon? Do you still proceed the initial 4gate push or do you switch play? When should you avoid proceeding with the initial 4gate push? Is there a read you can do to go for a 3rd nexus instead of the 2base timing?
On May 02 2012 09:39 lazyo wrote: If you want you can add my variation on a blink +2 all in. I don't quite feel I have it mapped out as to warrant a full guide so I'll just post it here.
PREFACE The idea for it came when I watched GSL sometime last year, I think it was MC that I saw doing a sentry and +2 blink allin off of 4gas. It's basically an 8 gate 6 sentry, blinkstalker allin with 44 probes that hits much earlier and with more power (forcefields) than other blink builds.
9 Pylon 3 Chrono on probes 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon Resume probe production 19 Gateway 19 Cannon 20 Chrono Probes 21 Double gas 22 Transfer 4 probes to natural 23 Chrono both Nexi 26 Cybernetics Core
First 100 Gas on +1 Attack Next 50 on Warpgate ~34 Zealot (use it to sneak a probe into proxy pylon location) chrono +1 as often as possible @ +1 Attack half done: Twilight Council and 3rd gas Make 2 sentries from your Gateway 3 more gates to line up with Warpgate 4th Gas
When +1 is done: +2 Attack (chronod all the way) Blink (1 or 2 chronos on that) Add 4 more gateways Cut probes at 44 First warpin will be 4 sentries bringing you up to 6 Move out with the next warp in consisting of 4 stalkers.
You should arrive at the zerg's third at ~10:00 with blink done and +2 finishing shortly after that, having around 8 forcefields in your bag and soon 4 more if you keep your sentries alive.
* Of course any other forge expand with a similar gas timing will do as well but it might push your attack timing back by a few seconds
It is CRITICAL that you have exactly 16 probes per mineral line and 12 probes on gas in total, otherwise you will most likely screw over the build. If you are fighting the key engagement it's not so bad to miss your WG cooldown by a few seconds, 8 gates will allow for small mistakes in that. If you have traded well and you feel you can do without 2 more stalkers, add a robo incase he is going burrow.
If you can, get as close to his 3rd hatchery as possible, you want to use it to help you cut off parts of his army. Keep your sentries in a seperate control group and always put stalkers in front, this push is very fragile until your second full waprin arrives. If you meet a wall of spines (more than 2) drop 2-3 forcefields in front of them and focus them down with stalkers, blinking back upon shield loss. If your blink micro is not very good I strongly recommend you avoid this build as you will get crushed before you reach critical mass.
If you have done significant damage but are hesitant to go for the kill move or the zerg just abandoned his third and a wall of spines meets you at the natural: Resume probe production, clear your third of zerg scouting and take it, bring your sentry count back up to about 5, chrono immortals and start +3. If you lost your entire army without doing very significant damage there is not much you can do but hope the zerg overdrones and you can kill him with insane micro.
I don't quite understand the difference between yours and the one Alej posted. Other than you have less probes and you got no robo, does that play a huge role in the effectiveness of this all-in? Anyone could enlighten me as to the pros and cons of each, my analytical skills are not there yet. As you both state, MC uses them both, if I wanted to attempt one of these builds, is there something I scout that would indicate which build to go for?
On May 02 2012 12:17 Zedrewo wrote: What are you supposed to do if the zerg makes a few more zerglings or upgrades speed and catches your probe which's gonna make a proxy pylon? Do you still proceed the initial 4gate push or do you switch play? When should you avoid proceeding with the initial 4gate push? Is there a read you can do to go for a 3rd nexus instead of the 2base timing?
That's generally where the initial WG units come in. 2 stalkers 1 zealot, or 1 stalker 2 zealots etc should always be used as "cover" to either get a probe out on the map, or to allow your already hidden one to make closer pylons.
This is my new favourite thread on this forum. I'm comfortable in PvP lately and I'm reasonably comfortable with PvT but I keep dying horribly in PvZ. Last night I played a PvP (won) followed by two or three PvZs (horrendous losses).
Seriously, were you hiding in my room this past week and watching me failing against Zerg or something? The timing of this thread going up is perfect for my current struggles. Thanks.
On May 02 2012 12:17 Zedrewo wrote: What are you supposed to do if the zerg makes a few more zerglings or upgrades speed and catches your probe which's gonna make a proxy pylon? Do you still proceed the initial 4gate push or do you switch play? When should you avoid proceeding with the initial 4gate push? Is there a read you can do to go for a 3rd nexus instead of the 2base timing?
That's generally where the initial WG units come in. 2 stalkers 1 zealot, or 1 stalker 2 zealots etc should always be used as "cover" to either get a probe out on the map, or to allow your already hidden one to make closer pylons.
Yeah. But I mean, what if the zerg makes enough units to take this little force out?
On May 02 2012 12:17 Zedrewo wrote: What are you supposed to do if the zerg makes a few more zerglings or upgrades speed and catches your probe which's gonna make a proxy pylon? Do you still proceed the initial 4gate push or do you switch play? When should you avoid proceeding with the initial 4gate push? Is there a read you can do to go for a 3rd nexus instead of the 2base timing?
That's generally where the initial WG units come in. 2 stalkers 1 zealot, or 1 stalker 2 zealots etc should always be used as "cover" to either get a probe out on the map, or to allow your already hidden one to make closer pylons.
Yeah. But I mean, what if the zerg makes enough units to take this little force out?
Then you just want to warp in a round of units at home and take a bit more time to get a good proxy pylon up. You should always try to have a plyon on the cliff of your main or somewhere halfway through the map to get units at least somewhere close. If they are on 3 base and make substantial amount of units early they are screwing themselves a lot and it's not that bad your push is delayed a little.
These builds are fairly old and i personaly use a different one from desRow who has seen it on ladder alot from other korean protosses.
Its a 4 gate+1 zealot push into a 7 gate blink +2 allin of 3 gas. Which is slightly different from other allins because of 1 extra gas and +2 which gives your push a bit more strenght and a higher stalker count because of the 3th gas
On May 02 2012 09:39 lazyo wrote: If you want you can add my variation on a blink +2 all in. I don't quite feel I have it mapped out as to warrant a full guide so I'll just post it here.
PREFACE The idea for it came when I watched GSL sometime last year, I think it was MC that I saw doing a sentry and +2 blink allin off of 4gas. It's basically an 8 gate 6 sentry, blinkstalker allin with 44 probes that hits much earlier and with more power (forcefields) than other blink builds.
9 Pylon 3 Chrono on probes 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon Resume probe production 19 Gateway 19 Cannon 20 Chrono Probes 21 Double gas 22 Transfer 4 probes to natural 23 Chrono both Nexi 26 Cybernetics Core
First 100 Gas on +1 Attack Next 50 on Warpgate ~34 Zealot (use it to sneak a probe into proxy pylon location) chrono +1 as often as possible @ +1 Attack half done: Twilight Council and 3rd gas Make 2 sentries from your Gateway 3 more gates to line up with Warpgate 4th Gas
When +1 is done: +2 Attack (chronod all the way) Blink (1 or 2 chronos on that) Add 4 more gateways Cut probes at 44 First warpin will be 4 sentries bringing you up to 6 Move out with the next warp in consisting of 4 stalkers.
You should arrive at the zerg's third at ~10:00 with blink done and +2 finishing shortly after that, having around 8 forcefields in your bag and soon 4 more if you keep your sentries alive.
* Of course any other forge expand with a similar gas timing will do as well but it might push your attack timing back by a few seconds
It is CRITICAL that you have exactly 16 probes per mineral line and 12 probes on gas in total, otherwise you will most likely screw over the build. If you are fighting the key engagement it's not so bad to miss your WG cooldown by a few seconds, 8 gates will allow for small mistakes in that. If you have traded well and you feel you can do without 2 more stalkers, add a robo incase he is going burrow.
If you can, get as close to his 3rd hatchery as possible, you want to use it to help you cut off parts of his army. Keep your sentries in a seperate control group and always put stalkers in front, this push is very fragile until your second full waprin arrives. If you meet a wall of spines (more than 2) drop 2-3 forcefields in front of them and focus them down with stalkers, blinking back upon shield loss. If your blink micro is not very good I strongly recommend you avoid this build as you will get crushed before you reach critical mass.
If you have done significant damage but are hesitant to go for the kill move or the zerg just abandoned his third and a wall of spines meets you at the natural: Resume probe production, clear your third of zerg scouting and take it, bring your sentry count back up to about 5, chrono immortals and start +3. If you lost your entire army without doing very significant damage there is not much you can do but hope the zerg overdrones and you can kill him with insane micro.
I don't quite understand the difference between yours and the one Alej posted. Other than you have less probes and you got no robo, does that play a huge role in the effectiveness of this all-in? Anyone could enlighten me as to the pros and cons of each, my analytical skills are not there yet. As you both state, MC uses them both, if I wanted to attempt one of these builds, is there something I scout that would indicate which build to go for?
Well the critical difference is in the earlier attack timing with more forcefields than the build in the OP. Also it does not apply any +1 zealot pressure, not forcing units from zerg at that timing. Furthermore, with having 2 more gateways but no robo you are more all-in but you have more room for macro slipups - Perfect blink micro will require most of your apm so that's sort of an added "safety". As far as scouting goes, there isn't really a solid indicator that will tell you what zerg will do with his 3base before you commit to either build - unless he lets u sneak probes into the main. You can definately use this build with slight variations against a zerg staying on 2 base though. I would add a second cannon after zealot and delay the 3rd and 4th gas as well as using 3 chrono on 3 sentries from your gateway instead of the double chrono on your nexi. You can delay blink a bit (the gas mining will work out that way) as it is a much quicker upgrade than +2. You should arrive at the zerg natural at the same time but with +2 not quite done - that timing is still early enough to catch most muta or infestor tech timings just as the tech units are hatching. If zerg hits you with any attack from 2base around 10minutes you have the benefit of having enough income and production to hold pretty much anything. Of course all the safety rules of playing vs no-3rd zerg still apply - cover your main incase of nydus, power your 3 additional gateways with not 1 but 2 pylons etc.
For the +1+1 7gate/immortal/warp prism, could you build the warp prism first to harass? If you sent it in the main to warp in a few zealots. Or even not warp in, just scramble to defend their main while you push their third.
On May 05 2012 00:28 TangSC wrote: For the +1+1 7gate/immortal/warp prism, could you build the warp prism first to harass? If you sent it in the main to warp in a few zealots. Or even not warp in, just scramble to defend their main while you push their third.
Been playing some of these strats recently, although I don't have the timings completely perfect. My wins feel pretty effortless and my losses I just feel like I got crushed, are there responses that will just hold these 100% if the zerg is able to scout? Or can I win against most players simply with skill/forcefields etc if I perfect the timings?
nice post. but on the first VOD 2Gas +1 Zealot/Stalker-based 7 gate Your guide says cut once you have 33 probes 6 on gas 13x2 miniral line and 1 to drop proxy. in ur replay its evidence that you dont have enough minirals to sustain constant warpins. theres always 2 or 3 gateway available for warpins but you dont have the money too. I dont have access to Vines GSL vod but the HUK video you posted Huk doesnt stop cutting probes til he is @48 supply with 1 zealot 1 stalker 45 probes.
least amount of probes u can have to sustain full warp ins of 7 gate is 36 probes mining +1 for dropping proxy pylons. specially since you'll need more stalkers than you do zealots.
I tend to favor 14 forge -> 17 nexus for safety reasons. Variations of these all ins have worked well for me so far going forge before nexus, and I'm curious as to the risk vs reward of nexus first. Cannon timings just seem way too slow to combat an early pool. Sometimes I barely stop an early pool rush with a 14 forge on smaller maps. How do you deal with this kind of scouting information when you're planning to Nexus first?
ps: I like this version of the immortal all in. Actually gave me some ideas to refine the way I go about it. Thanks.
On May 04 2012 11:05 Alejandrisha wrote: will be adding double stargate and dt transition out of 4g +1 shortly. any other requests?
edit: as well as trying out the variation of the 7gate suggested above
I would love to see a Dark Templar opening into Archon/Speed Zealot All-in!
Would be nice to see Squirtle's DT into 7gate Blink (From his recent game against Nestea). I'm not sure anyone has done Chargelot-archon in PvZ for quite a while since 3 hatch roach is an incredibly strong counter. ______
The 4-gate pressure > DT > 3rd base is one of my favourite PvZ builds since you're basically guaranteed to snipe one hatch and take a third safely.
Here is the outline to my (read: MC's) build if you are interested:
(FFE > 4 gate +1 as standard up to here) ~40 supply 3xGate (4) ~45-48 Twilight Council ~50 Double gas Dark Shrine, +2 attack (4G pressure here) ~65 3xGate ~70 Robo Blink, +3 attack, Observer ~100 3rd base (7gate Robo, TC, DS)
Edit: Just found a game of him doing it against Nerchio. He actually gets a robo before the extra gates in this game but otherwise the build matches very closely with above:
______
I can also give you the Genius Blink all-in (3 gas, no zealot pressure, pure stalker) and a 6-gate VR all-in if you are interested
here's a small variation on 7 gate zealot/stalker it sacrifices +1 for a faster push, so your warp-ins will start faster, but your zealots won't be able to 2 shot lings.
I have seen Mc (and Kiwikaki a looong time ago) going 8gate zealot/stalker while skipping +1 as well as the second gas for faster gates; it seems a bit better (easier to scout too though) since it can hit stupidly fast. I recall Kiwikaki warping in 8 units right when a 4gate pressure build can warp in 4....
9 Pylon 16 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Gateway 17 Pylon 18 Cannon 20-22 gases 22-23 core @100 gas start +1 @100 mins start zealot @100% core, start WG research (4 CB) @100% zealot, start stalker ~38, 3 gateways add 2 gases start TC @100% WG research, transform gates + warp in 4 zealots @100% TC, start DT shrine and +2
You should warp in total 6-8 zealots unless you determine you can do more damage with additional warp-ins
squeeze in a few sentries before your DT warp in, start a robo and a few more gates since you can support much more than 4 gates and a robo with your econ right now. use your probe on the map to plant another hidden pylon for your DT warp in
Nice guid. I play in PvZ Forge FE after wall with forge, gate, core and canon behind this, i add robo. When Nexus finish I start first Immortal and add 3 up to 5 more gates. When I have 2 / 3 Immortal i go attack natural and warp in the 3rd of Zerg.
Can sb. tell me, if there is another build like this?
On July 19 2012 03:29 Teoita wrote: I have seen Mc (and Kiwikaki a looong time ago) going 8gate zealot/stalker while skipping +1 as well as the second gas for faster gates; it seems a bit better (easier to scout too though) since it can hit stupidly fast. I recall Kiwikaki warping in 8 units right when a 4gate pressure build can warp in 4....
Isn't that basically the same as Huk's 8 gate build?
On July 19 2012 03:29 Teoita wrote: I have seen Mc (and Kiwikaki a looong time ago) going 8gate zealot/stalker while skipping +1 as well as the second gas for faster gates; it seems a bit better (easier to scout too though) since it can hit stupidly fast. I recall Kiwikaki warping in 8 units right when a 4gate pressure build can warp in 4....
Isn't that basically the same as Huk's 8 gate build?
I'm not familiar with it, i guess so...it's just a specific variation fo a 7/8 gate. Here's a replay http://drop.sc/187502
I saw HerO do the +1 4 gate zeal into 7 gate immortal sentry WP, and I've been using it on ladder ever since, but my build was super sloppy. (but I won still cuz FF op ;])
EPT
