1. I'm not sure you understand my point here. I'm saying that spines/spores can defend bases perfectly, but toss can use cannons to defend baneling drops as well. Both can be stopped by appropriate defenses. It seems from your post that the reason your baneling drops worked was that your opponents didn't have appropriate defenses. 2. I'm not talking about carrier builds at all. Actually, I'm talking about carriers off of 4+ base. It's a very late game transition that occurs only after you've hit max with colossi/archon/mothership and have at least 4 bases. So basically standard play into carriers on 4 base. I can link you to some games if you would like.
Would you please? I am interested on how protoss beats this as well. Even a carrier transition seems complicated.
Things I want to know are:
How many stargates does a protoss build? considering how slow carriers are..I imagine you need at least 4-6.
Pure carriers is still trash, so what ratio between blink stalkers/carriers/archons would a protoss need?
A good number is 5 stargates when you get maxed or close just throw them down and start chronoing upgrades for them. Then I like to make a round of 5 voids and 5 carriers as you lose supply. I can't insta remax on them so you wanna do harras or do really good trades then back off. As you do that just remax remax till you are mostly carrier void ray and if you have the money feel free to add in more stargates. And Storm on your templar to back this up is always a plus.
I've been playing sort of like this lategame once P has a mothership out. Never attack a protoss with a mothership up straight on, that's the best way to lose an advantage. I take my half of the map and slowly creep forward with army + spines/queens (for transfuse).
I really like small crackling drops, especially when P is maxed so that he can't warp in defensive zealots. They tear through buildings and cannons.
Btw, If you play this banelings style and manage to neural parasite his mothership, consider using Mass Recall on your banelings instead of vortex. This is so damn awesome to pull of.
On April 28 2012 22:49 Belial88 wrote: neo i dont really agree with your analysis of banerain. banerain costs a lot of gas, 100 gas to each mineral line that you can't re-use. When I went banerain, I would send 1 overlord to 3 bases all at once, while pushng forward (id get banerain to time with 200/200). It's actually best played against someone who is being defense, if he's in a choke he can't run anywhere. And toss can easily deal with it, you just pull your probes away quickly. but many toss may not expect it or just suck.
Its also worth noting that the protoss army needs,very much so, to stick together in a death ball to be supply effective. This means that 16 cracklings in your main is going to be quite hard to deal with without assigning more supply then the 8 those cracklings will take up, to deal with the drop. This leaves the zerg with a larger supply of units in the middle of the field.
p can warp in zealots, and will generally have cannons around. I don't really find crackling drops useful in zvp.
banerain is great and all, but the tech is so goddamn expensive. You are literally trading going for broodlords, with banerain, and it's a no brainer which one of those is better. The upside to banerain play is that it comes quicker than broodlords, but zergs have learned much better ways to buy time these days (maxing in 11 minutes and trading, mass spine + infestor, mutas) than spending the same amount of gas that could just get you broodlord tech. It's definitely not worth the gas of 300/300 + 300 gas in at least 9 banelings for 3 minerals lines.
If, say, you opened banerain just to drop 3 overlords, toss will just push out and kill you because you didnt spend your gas on tech. That was a huge problem I had with the style. The only way to justify it, is if you are actually going banerain as part of your army, and you get late.
I agree with you with these points and I think you misunderstood me.
I am advocating bane rain AFTER broodlords. I would research the drop while getting the hive, usually getting my 4th base, while massing spines. so while the broods are building, banerain become pretty safe to execute. Yes, it costs gas, but off of 6+ geysers, this isn't so bad.
I agree that banerain during the midgame is actually terrible. I did that build for the longest time and I've had trouble getting the banelings to consistently drop thanks to that stupid patch blizzard put in. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288615.
Also there's that glitch that allows collosi to not take any damage from banelings while they're half way on a cliff. Both those factors have made bane-rain during the midgame turn into a coinclip. Either all the collosi die or you die.
Maybe I need to try the fabled ultralisk drop harassment next
Ultralisk drop harass is fantastic for sniping terran PFs, but it's pretty underwhelming against protoss.
I agree with the premise of your topic, in that BL/infestor should be used defensively and you need to harass to get ahead. Personally I just recommend lots of zergling drops and runbys for sniping tech and expansions, and forcing him to build a million cannons at every base or warp in zealots at the wrong locations. Killing probes rarely seems to keep a lategame protoss back (unless you manage to kill 50 probes simultaneously - which is possible but unlikely against a competent opponent who builds cannons). With 5 nexus and 5 sets of chronoboost, by killing probes you're basically just trading gas for minerals. If you're doing that, you may as well be killing pylons, gateways, and cannons with zerglings (no gas!), and taking down probes or a nexus if given an opportunity.
Banelings work in the vortex, but they are not cost effective at all. You need to make sure that he cannot storm you on the way into the vortex. It might save you for that one battle, but if you are on even bases (especially if you are behind) he can replace his army quickly enough, because of how much you spent on the banelings. There are also many ways it can go wrong, I've seen a lot of games where Leenock tries to use banelings in late game and the protoss almost always manages to snipe most of them with storm or a colossus volley before they can get to the vortex.
I think the most important part of fighting against the mothership with broodlord/infestor (besides spreading, which is already assumed) is mass infested terrans. You need to use them to control where the protoss can and can't move, because broodlords are slow, and your infestors need to stay behind your broodlords or they get killed by feedback and storm and colossus. Your goal should be pinning his army in one location while harassing everything else with zerglings (and maybe banelings).
You need to make sure that he cannot storm you on the way into the vortex. It might save you for that one battle, but if you are on even bases (especially if you are behind) he can replace his army quickly enough, because of how much you spent on the banelings. There are also many ways it can go wrong, I've seen a lot of games where Leenock tries to use banelings in late game and the protoss almost always manages to snipe most of them with storm or a colossus volley before they can get to the vortex.
This point is extremely important I think. A lot of protoss don't seem to include high templar in their late game composition (favouring archons instead) but their storms are very good against banelings and arguably good against broodlords and infestors. Grubby was streaming a few nights ago and he was sure to have at least 4-6 high templar ready to feedback/storm any type of offensive move that the zerg threw at him and it seems to work quite well.
I think a carrier transition would be the way to go since the broodlord/infestor army is so immobile; I think this build might also have some trouble dealing with warp prism drops that include HTs... but then again, what build doesn't have trouble against storm drops :S.
Overall, the build seems really solid and I understand that you were looking at the late game reliability of it but I'm curious... Is there a large window of vulnerability with this build? The build is dependent on the strength of baneling/zergling/infestor in the mid-game which is pretty powerful but when does the transition exactly happen? In the video with Grubby and Stephano, it seems to happen around the 15ish minute mark. How would this build fare against a strong 3 base timing push leading into the late-game?
Something like +3 push at around 15 minutes with colossus and the works + warp prism in the main to harass tech?
Just a thought... This build sounds more and more scary as I think about it...
Maybe I need to try the fabled ultralisk drop harassment next
Ultralisk drop harass is fantastic for sniping terran PFs, but it's pretty underwhelming against protoss.
I agree with the premise of your topic, in that BL/infestor should be used defensively and you need to harass to get ahead. Personally I just recommend lots of zergling drops and runbys for sniping tech and expansions, and forcing him to build a million cannons at every base or warp in zealots at the wrong locations. Killing probes rarely seems to keep a lategame protoss back (unless you manage to kill 50 probes simultaneously - which is possible but unlikely against a competent opponent who builds cannons). With 5 nexus and 5 sets of chronoboost, by killing probes you're basically just trading gas for minerals. If you're doing that, you may as well be killing pylons, gateways, and cannons with zerglings (no gas!), and taking down probes or a nexus if given an opportunity.
Banelings work in the vortex, but they are not cost effective at all. You need to make sure that he cannot storm you on the way into the vortex. It might save you for that one battle, but if you are on even bases (especially if you are behind) he can replace his army quickly enough, because of how much you spent on the banelings. There are also many ways it can go wrong, I've seen a lot of games where Leenock tries to use banelings in late game and the protoss almost always manages to snipe most of them with storm or a colossus volley before they can get to the vortex.
I think the most important part of fighting against the mothership with broodlord/infestor (besides spreading, which is already assumed) is mass infested terrans. You need to use them to control where the protoss can and can't move, because broodlords are slow, and your infestors need to stay behind your broodlords or they get killed by feedback and storm and colossus. Your goal should be pinning his army in one location while harassing everything else with zerglings (and maybe banelings).
never attacking a protoss is the best option if the protoss never decides to make air units. but if they make air units... then sitting back isn't really an option.. especially if you already have 10+ broods.
you give a protoss map control (because you're turtling over spines for fear of dying) then they can take bases and easily support a ton of stargates to start making void rays and carriers to completely roll your army for free.
that said, most protosses don't know what an air unit is (besides the mothership)
so getting up a sick turtle with advancing creep is the best way to play atm.
On April 29 2012 04:59 Let it Raine wrote: never attacking a protoss is the best option if the protoss never decides to make air units. but if they make air units... then sitting back isn't really an option.. especially if you already have 10+ broods.
you give a protoss map control (because you're turtling over spines for fear of dying) then they can take bases and easily support a ton of stargates to start making void rays and carriers to completely roll your army for free.
that said, most protosses don't know what an air unit is (besides the mothership)
so getting up a sick turtle with advancing creep is the best way to play atm.
yea I'm learning this the hard way. Seems like it is better to keep most of your corruptors as anti air, go scout then morph to broodlords the appropriate amount. If it's mostly airtoss, then you don't really need more than 7 or so broodlords behind the spines. You can go harass the protoss with your upgraded corruptors while droppinig lings/blings amongst others.
On April 29 2012 04:59 Let it Raine wrote: never attacking a protoss is the best option if the protoss never decides to make air units. but if they make air units... then sitting back isn't really an option.. especially if you already have 10+ broods.
you give a protoss map control (because you're turtling over spines for fear of dying) then they can take bases and easily support a ton of stargates to start making void rays and carriers to completely roll your army for free.
that said, most protosses don't know what an air unit is (besides the mothership)
so getting up a sick turtle with advancing creep is the best way to play atm.
In my experience playing passively works against protoss air too. Interceptors are expensive to replace. If you make a slow spine push, you should always have a bunch of queens with you. They have 7 range vs both colossus and air and can transfuse brood lords and spines. Fungals, infested terrans, corruption and queens can usually keep you alive long enough to get hydras/spores out if they went for an air switch.
I play this type of style in the late game and I found 1 counter (if you want to call it that) is recall. A few times, I have just had a protoss fly their mothership into my main, and just mass recall all of his units! You need to have a clear idea of what he is going to do and have corruptors/infestors ready to stop it. Having good overlord placement to actually see it coming is great to! But, it does work pretty well if they can do it!
If they can't just float directly into your main, your can go to areas close to inside your base and just barely move mothership over and recall, bypassing the spines! Not only does this make the spines not as effective, but also your broodlord/infestor army is VERY slow to reposition and can pressure you to badly micro your units in a rush to save your base!
It can also be used to start a base race if you move out, usually in the protoss favor!
Pros: Good surprise, specially if you are keeping tabs of where zerg has his army at!
The mass recall into the Zerg's main thing generally works a lot better if you have a fleet of phoenixes out, because they can essentially force the Zerg to bottle all his ovies in his bases and completely deny map awareness. This is one of the main reasons that I almost always go stargate first in PvZ, a few phoenixes can give you complete map control in the mid-game and it makes the transition to fleet beacon tech later in the game that much easier. My personal opinion is that skytoss PvZ in the late game is one of the best styles there is if you remember to start your air upgrades early. Hydras are stupid easy to kill with carriers as long as you are decently wise about where you pick your engagements (using cliffs and non-creeped areas as effectively as possible), and while corruptors are Zerg's best bet against a heavy carrier comp, with any kind of decent support (phoenixes, archons, hts, or conceivably mass stalker) the carriers will still absolutely roll a corruptor ball with their insane dps and slight range advantage, despite corruptor's bonus against massive.
Regarding the issue of when to transition to carriers in late game, if you have a fleet beacon (for mamaship) and you have enough bank for 4 or 5 stargates, a good rule of thumb I think is to have as many stargates as you do bases. Seriously, put up a lot of stargates. Carrier fleets, almost counter-intuitively, are actually incredibly cheap in terms of income. If mining income is the amount of minerals and gas mined in a given period of time, then a unit's income cost is it's mineral and gas cost divided by it's build time (ie. a unit costs x minerals/minute and y gas/minute for sustained and continuous production; if your mining income is lower than your sum unit income cost, some of your buildings are going to be idle). So think about it: a carrier takes 120 seconds to build, and costs 350min and 250gas; it's income cost is 175min/m and 125gas/m. Compared to void ray (250min/m 150gas/m) and phoenix (257min/m and 171gas/m) production, it's the cheapest unit you can produce out of a stargate by far. Even compared to colossus (240min/m and 160gas/m) and high templar (67min/m and 200 gas/m), the other two tech tree's respective t3 units, it really is quite cheap. The catch is you have to seriously invest in stargates to get that kind of production going. So yeah. If you get the air upgrades started early enough, particularly attack (since each of the interceptors get +1, the carrier effectively gets +8 per upgrade), and you've got the bank to throw down the requisite number of stargates, it doesn't require much of an economy (in late game terms) to sustain heavy carrier production.
This is, personally, why I think White-Ra's double stargate carrier rush is so effective. I mean sure, the surprise factor probably plays a decent role in that kind of win rate, but it's easily sustained by a 2 base FFE economy, allowing you to expand and continue to tech behind a relatively early carrier per minute production (with the fast +1 before warp tech, hugely effective against t1 and early t2 Zerg as well).
Air, especially carriers is definitely the scariest protoss response, because carriers can pick away at your broodlords from out of range and use your own spread against you.
I think the key things to think about when playing against air are: - upgrade air carapace. You must keep up with his cycore upgrades or corruptors become useless. Double spire is definitely preferrred. Corruptors are pretty boss with 3/3. - infested terrans. They are always vulnerable to colossus and storm, but they are still marines and they are great against air. I recommend getting +3 attack for them as quickly as you can. A carrier can't fly over a group of infested terrans to hit your broodlords. He needs to clear them out first, with storm or colossus. - zerglings. keep harassing expansions and dropping lings to try to snipe tech. Carriers are slow. Even if your army is slower, you should never let him get a free expansion. If he didn't have to move part of his army to be able to place the nexus, and make a million cannons to defend it, then you are letting him get away with murder. - queens and spores. Bring them along. Decent range anti-air that will kill interceptors from behind your broodlords, and can heal the broodlords. This stops small numbers of carriers from ruining your day, but don't help much at all when he has thirteen.
@OP: if toss sees bane-heavy unit comp, they just wait for 2 vortexes -- one for your BL's+their archons and one to catch the banelings that try to enter the one with the BL's...hero pulled this off perfectly (so clutch) vs someone on Shattered - i want to say it was Dimaga or Violet.
On April 29 2012 14:30 nath wrote: @OP: if toss sees bane-heavy unit comp, they just wait for 2 vortexes -- one for your BL's+their archons and one to catch the banelings that try to enter the one with the BL's...hero pulled this off perfectly (so clutch) vs someone on Shattered - i want to say it was Dimaga or Violet.
I think it was stephano vs kiwikaki ipl3 qualifiers 2011.
On April 29 2012 14:30 nath wrote: @OP: if toss sees bane-heavy unit comp, they just wait for 2 vortexes -- one for your BL's+their archons and one to catch the banelings that try to enter the one with the BL's...hero pulled this off perfectly (so clutch) vs someone on Shattered - i want to say it was Dimaga or Violet.
I think it was stephano vs kiwikaki ipl3 qualifiers 2011.
hm. i know that game, i am talking about another game it happened. that game was on metal, right? this one was on shattered.
I agree that banerain during the midgame is actually terrible. I did that build for the longest time and I've had trouble getting the banelings to consistently drop thanks to that stupid patch blizzard put in. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288615.
*facepalm*
There was no stupid blizzard patch that changed baneling drop. All that happened, was someone on reddit posted a video saying "OMG YOU CANT DROP ON TIGHTLY PACKED GROUND UNITS" after that patch. Then, he did a test later trying to do it using pre-patch, and it wouldn't drop either.
What it is, is that if ground units are extremely tightly packed, like zealots balled up, or sentries ff'd together tightly, yes, you can't drop on them. In an actual game, you will never have 30 sentries balled together, or 50 zealots balled together. When you mix, say, stalkers and zealots, or tanks and marines, etc, you don't have such tight grouping anymore, and with units moving around, they can get dropped on too.
All the patch did, was make it so if you dropped, through the fog of war, on top of a tight ball of units that you shouldn't be able to, you couldn't. It didn't change anything about dropping onto armies.
You saying 'i couldnt drop anymore after the patch' just tells me you are just lying and saying you couldln't do it anymore, or don't have good control in the first place.
The guy who 'exposed' this issue in the first place, made a video and reddit post stating that he was an idiot (his actual words, not mine). Of course, no one saw it.
Blizzard never changed anything in regards to baneling drops. All they did was fix a glitch, a glitch that no one had exploited and would never occur in a real game where someone moves their units, and isn't making only a single type of unit, and hitting hold position on them for 10 minutes.
Also there's that glitch that allows collosi to not take any damage from banelings while they're half way on a cliff. Both those factors have made bane-rain during the midgame turn into a coinclip. Either all the collosi die or you die.
Again, facepalm. There's a known bug where if a colossi is half on a ledge, melee units will try to attack it, but won't be able to hit it. The fix would be if melee units simply didn't aggro against colossi that are really just on the cliff. For the time being, dont a-move banelings into colossi that are clearly on the high ground.
This doesn't make bane-rain useless. There is zero practical application to this bug - Toss will just run up the cliff against your banes or melee units, he isn't going to try to put it half way and hope he did it right and that his colossi doesn't die needlessly. That, and it's not like cliffs are just everywhere for toss to put their colossi hoping you aggro into them with banes...
It really shouldn't change your decision to go baneling rain.
Baneling rain kind of sucks because muta and turtle/infestor are arguably better, and the tech cost is the same as just going broodlords (the upside to banerain, is that it is quicker to get than broodlord though). Why go banerain when you can go broodlords. I think the only time I've seen it in recent memory is coca, and toss actually micro'd and made a joke out of it (to be fair, he engaged through a choke and didn't land the fungals, and i think he was already super far behind for losing his third in early game or something).
I think the most important part of fighting against the mothership with broodlord/infestor (besides spreading, which is already assumed) is mass infested terrans. You need to use them to control where the protoss can and can't move, because broodlords are slow, and your infestors need to stay behind your broodlords or they get killed by feedback and storm and colossus. Your goal should be pinning his army in one location while harassing everything else with zerglings (and maybe banelings).
Yea I kind of agree. I mean, I could just be wrong, I never went banelings before and avoided them because I thought they were bad. But I always understood it that more infestors as a 'counter' to mothership and archons for infested terran is cheaper, deadlier, more cost efficient, and much more successful, than banelings into toilet.
never attacking a protoss is the best option if the protoss never decides to make air units. but if they make air units... then sitting back isn't really an option.. especially if you already have 10+ broods.
you give a protoss map control (because you're turtling over spines for fear of dying) then they can take bases and easily support a ton of stargates to start making void rays and carriers to completely roll your army for free.
that said, most protosses don't know what an air unit is (besides the mothership)
so getting up a sick turtle with advancing creep is the best way to play atm.
Air units have nothing to do with it... infestors handle toss air very easily (with exception of carriers). You don't really need a single corruptor to deal with toss air. That's why so many toss insist that zergs are assholes for saying "JUST MAKE VOIDS TO COUNTER BL DUH". I mean, I think toss are just being babies (jk)... but not attacking toss because of his decision to make air units or not? that doesnt make any sense at all.
Yea, turtling has a problem of letting toss get a third/fourth and tech, but the idea is to either make less defenses and infestors if toss is going to be greedy, and more defense/infestors if toss is going to attack with stalker/colossi. Hopefully, you have such a huge econ lead because you are 6 bases or whatever, that you just win when broodlords pop out. Turtling can definitely diminish a lead you gained as it's stretched over time, but a lead is a lead, and if you can use it to get really fast broodlords against a toss who's behind, they die.
There's drawbacks and strengths to every style of play. I don't think that's a secret.
Maybe a few corruptors for against air play, but I don't think air play is particularly strong against bl/infestor, except carriers or motherships. You just make more infestors, maybe even queens and spores.
I agree that banerain during the midgame is actually terrible. I did that build for the longest time and I've had trouble getting the banelings to consistently drop thanks to that stupid patch blizzard put in. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288615.
*facepalm*
There was no stupid blizzard patch that changed baneling drop. All that happened, was someone on reddit posted a video saying "OMG YOU CANT DROP ON TIGHTLY PACKED GROUND UNITS" after that patch. Then, he did a test later trying to do it using pre-patch, and it wouldn't drop either.
What it is, is that if ground units are extremely tightly packed, like zealots balled up, or sentries ff'd together tightly, yes, you can't drop on them. In an actual game, you will never have 30 sentries balled together, or 50 zealots balled together. When you mix, say, stalkers and zealots, or tanks and marines, etc, you don't have such tight grouping anymore, and with units moving around, they can get dropped on too.
All the patch did, was make it so if you dropped, through the fog of war, on top of a tight ball of units that you shouldn't be able to, you couldn't. It didn't change anything about dropping onto armies.
You saying 'i couldnt drop anymore after the patch' just tells me you are just lying and saying you couldln't do it anymore, or don't have good control in the first place.
The guy who 'exposed' this issue in the first place, made a video and reddit post stating that he was an idiot (his actual words, not mine). Of course, no one saw it.
Blizzard never changed anything in regards to baneling drops. All they did was fix a glitch, a glitch that no one had exploited and would never occur in a real game where someone moves their units, and isn't making only a single type of unit, and hitting hold position on them for 10 minutes.
Also there's that glitch that allows collosi to not take any damage from banelings while they're half way on a cliff. Both those factors have made bane-rain during the midgame turn into a coinclip. Either all the collosi die or you die.
Again, facepalm. There's a known bug where if a colossi is half on a ledge, melee units will try to attack it, but won't be able to hit it. The fix would be if melee units simply didn't aggro against colossi that are really just on the cliff. For the time being, dont a-move banelings into colossi that are clearly on the high ground.
This doesn't make bane-rain useless. There is zero practical application to this bug - Toss will just run up the cliff against your banes or melee units, he isn't going to try to put it half way and hope he did it right and that his colossi doesn't die needlessly. That, and it's not like cliffs are just everywhere for toss to put their colossi hoping you aggro into them with banes...
It really shouldn't change your decision to go baneling rain.
Baneling rain kind of sucks because muta and turtle/infestor are arguably better, and the tech cost is the same as just going broodlords (the upside to banerain, is that it is quicker to get than broodlord though). Why go banerain when you can go broodlords. I think the only time I've seen it in recent memory is coca, and toss actually micro'd and made a joke out of it (to be fair, he engaged through a choke and didn't land the fungals, and i think he was already super far behind for losing his third in early game or something).
I think the most important part of fighting against the mothership with broodlord/infestor (besides spreading, which is already assumed) is mass infested terrans. You need to use them to control where the protoss can and can't move, because broodlords are slow, and your infestors need to stay behind your broodlords or they get killed by feedback and storm and colossus. Your goal should be pinning his army in one location while harassing everything else with zerglings (and maybe banelings).
Yea I kind of agree. I mean, I could just be wrong, I never went banelings before and avoided them because I thought they were bad. But I always understood it that more infestors as a 'counter' to mothership and archons for infested terran is cheaper, deadlier, more cost efficient, and much more successful, than banelings into toilet.
never attacking a protoss is the best option if the protoss never decides to make air units. but if they make air units... then sitting back isn't really an option.. especially if you already have 10+ broods.
you give a protoss map control (because you're turtling over spines for fear of dying) then they can take bases and easily support a ton of stargates to start making void rays and carriers to completely roll your army for free.
that said, most protosses don't know what an air unit is (besides the mothership)
so getting up a sick turtle with advancing creep is the best way to play atm.
Air units have nothing to do with it... infestors handle toss air very easily (with exception of carriers). You don't really need a single corruptor to deal with toss air. That's why so many toss insist that zergs are assholes for saying "JUST MAKE VOIDS TO COUNTER BL DUH". I mean, I think toss are just being babies (jk)... but not attacking toss because of his decision to make air units or not? that doesnt make any sense at all.
Yea, turtling has a problem of letting toss get a third/fourth and tech, but the idea is to either make less defenses and infestors if toss is going to be greedy, and more defense/infestors if toss is going to attack with stalker/colossi. Hopefully, you have such a huge econ lead because you are 6 bases or whatever, that you just win when broodlords pop out. Turtling can definitely diminish a lead you gained as it's stretched over time, but a lead is a lead, and if you can use it to get really fast broodlords against a toss who's behind, they die.
There's drawbacks and strengths to every style of play. I don't think that's a secret.
Maybe a few corruptors for against air play, but I don't think air play is particularly strong against bl/infestor, except carriers or motherships. You just make more infestors, maybe even queens and spores.
You need to watch the replay on that link before making generic comments like this. I used to think that my terrible micro was causing banelings not to drop, but when watching various replays of myself losing, I began seeing the overlords being told to drop into a protoss ball, the drop icon lights up...the overlord passes through the protoss ball...the drop icon light turns off and nothing happens. It may or may not be due to the patch...but my point stands that banerain is completely unreliable.
Also the baneling/collosi on cliff has nothing to do with A-moving banes. You can drop the banes right on the collosi using overlords, the banes WILL connect, but the collosi will take no damage.
And don't start calling me a liar. You have a history of making aggressive presumptuous posts before, please refrain from doing so here.
I used to think that my terrible micro was causing banelings not to drop, but when watching various replays of myself losing, I began seeing the overlords being told to drop into a protoss ball, the drop icon lights up...the overlord passes through the protoss ball...the drop icon light turns off and nothing happens. It may or may not be due to the patch...but my point stands that banerain is completely unreliable.
I did watch the replay. It's completely your 30 APM and terrible micro. You selected only 2 overlords in the entire battle. Those 2 overlords, dropped just fine. The 8+ overlords you didn't select, didn't drop. Then, afterwards, you tell all your overlord to d-Move on top of his army. That's not how you are supposed to banerain, and your overlords dropped just fine anyways. You are either too slow to select multiple overlords to drop them on the move, or you really don't know how to make units drop from a moving dropship.
And with the 'bug', overlords won't just do nothing. They will pass over the forcefield-tight army or reapers boxed in by buildings, and then drop. The drop command will never cancel unless you actually tell it to cancel.
And don't start calling me a liar. You have a history of making aggressive presumptuous posts before, please refrain from doing so here
I didn't call you a liar, and this discussion is all irrelevant anyways to trying to figure out tactics against motherships and lategame ZvP.
Let's just drop it. I have a history of aggressively calling out people who are wrong, and you are wrong. Anyone else is free to watch the replay and see it's clearly your miscontrol, and everyone else already knows that the whole 'omg banerain doesn't work!' was just the worst case of reddit being out of control. As for colossi on cliffs.... I'd be perfectly happy if Toss thought it would be smarter to try to position his colossi halfway on a cliff, for my roaches and infestors and everything else to hit, than actually run up the cliff and abuse his range... or I'd just not engage colossi on the high ground.
EPT
