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Hi, firstly- as with everybody else- a massive thanks for this great series!
I'm in silver (Terran) and still not executing this build perfectly but I find that once my opponents scout my fast expansion they inevitably go for a one base push/all in that I find difficult to stop.
Terrans are a particular problem; when they get to siege tanks quickly off one base and push out before my siege mode is up I seem to lose every time. If I scout it and hide some marines to ambush the tanks I can still win but more often I'm left with just my marines facing a small siege line outside my natural and an inevitable GG.
Am I just executing the build too slowly or is there something I can can tweak in the normal filter build to counter this please?
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On October 25 2012 17:00 Yourbasesbelong2us wrote:
Hi, firstly- as with everybody else- a massive thanks for this great series!
I'm in silver (Terran) and still not executing this build perfectly but I find that once my opponents scout my fast expansion they inevitably go for a one base push/all in that I find difficult to stop.
Terrans are a particular problem; when they get to siege tanks quickly off one base and push out before my siege mode is up I seem to lose every time. If I scout it and hide some marines to ambush the tanks I can still win but more often I'm left with just my marines facing a small siege line outside my natural and an inevitable GG.
Am I just executing the build too slowly or is there something I can can tweak in the normal filter build to counter this please?
I seem to remember Filter saying in either a video (possibly the scouting one) or in a comment to one of the videos, that scouting it is paramount. I think the words were "If he manages to seige up outside your base, 9 times out of ten its gg". So basicly, what it comes down to is scouting it and then moving your units out to make him seige up while he is halfway to your base, and then slowly retreating while macroing up and getting seige yourself. I have died to this a ton myself, because my scouting and minimap awareness is rather lacking, so dont worry too much about it. Hope that helps.
Have a nice day 
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Thanks! It's nice to know that I'm not alone in experiencing that sickening realization when the first siege shot hits my bunker
I'm probably too focused on the basic build at the moment, I do need to scout more. Once I push out to hold off the early push my macro seems to fall apart behind it.
I think I will practice getting to 10.00 against an easy AI as early pressure seems to throw me way off. Once I have nailed that I will try real people, scout more as you say, and try to hit the metrics while holding off the one base-ers!
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On October 25 2012 17:00 Yourbasesbelong2us wrote:
Hi, firstly- as with everybody else- a massive thanks for this great series!
I'm in silver (Terran) and still not executing this build perfectly but I find that once my opponents scout my fast expansion they inevitably go for a one base push/all in that I find difficult to stop.
Terrans are a particular problem; when they get to siege tanks quickly off one base and push out before my siege mode is up I seem to lose every time. If I scout it and hide some marines to ambush the tanks I can still win but more often I'm left with just my marines facing a small siege line outside my natural and an inevitable GG.
Am I just executing the build too slowly or is there something I can can tweak in the normal filter build to counter this please?
The point of these video's especially in the bronze/silver/gold/plat is to improve mechanics. In silver the timings are going to be all wonky and out. I don't want to be rude but in silver if you literally just practise your mechanics and hit the right timing you will walk over your opponent. I wouldn't even worry much about scouting, just work hard on getting that 2 base scv saturation while concentrating on keeping your production up. You can basically do this till platinum ! you might lose some games to 1 base cheese/pushes but you will win the majority and you will learn how to hold cheese better while concentrating on macro.
I know you probably hear you can macro to diamond etc etc. But it is sooo true, I watched these videos when I was platauing in platinum, and i got instant results. I was promoted to diamond within few weeks, after i hit my 65 scv @13:30 ingame clock and with my 3rd expansion also with constant unit construction.
This alone got me to diamond!
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Wow! That's both great and slightly scary to hear.
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I practiced about 1-2 hours yesterday, after watching the 3rd and 4th videos. It is more fun to learn a basic build instead of just building Rax!
First game, @10:00, I had 44 SCVs, second game 47 SCVs, third game 50 SCVs, and finally 4th game 50 SCVs.
After the 4 practice game where I could hit the SCVs & time benchmarks (the "basic" ones : 50SCVs @10:00, 3:45 Nat) I decided to concentrate on getting the Factory @6:30, the Startport @7:55 and Stim&Medivac @10:00 to push. Surprisingly, I went to play 4 games on the ladder (3W - 1L) and it went VERY well ! In my four games, I had difficulties to get the Factory & Starport in time so it ended up I got my first Medivacs @10:30, which isn't THAT bad concidering it was my first experiences with this build, on the ladder. Learning the basic mechanics really helped me in a mirror match against another Terran. He used massive Banshees and it hurt me a lot !! But, because this build was so versatile, I could get some Vikings to help me, and then, switched the Starport with another building with a Tech Lab, to get a Raven for my army, while getting some tower for both my base. Then, he was f**cked and I arrived with my 130 supply army and completely destroyed his base.
So, to sum it up, I can't wait to know this build order by hear. (For the moment, I have it noted and I follow these notes... it helps!) I can see the progress I'm doing, and after 10-15 games, I'll look at every replay to see how I'm doing. Can't wait.
So FilterSC, I'd like to thank you personnally. I only watched the first four videos and I'm already improving a lot! Thanks for your time, it's appreciated by the community and by myself!
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On October 25 2012 17:00 Yourbasesbelong2us wrote:
Hi, firstly- as with everybody else- a massive thanks for this great series!
I'm in silver (Terran) and still not executing this build perfectly but I find that once my opponents scout my fast expansion they inevitably go for a one base push/all in that I find difficult to stop.
Terrans are a particular problem; when they get to siege tanks quickly off one base and push out before my siege mode is up I seem to lose every time. If I scout it and hide some marines to ambush the tanks I can still win but more often I'm left with just my marines facing a small siege line outside my natural and an inevitable GG.
Am I just executing the build too slowly or is there something I can can tweak in the normal filter build to counter this please?
Ah, been there. Cheer up, once you move up the ranks you will face less and less 1 base tank contains as this strategy isn't really that good.
If you didn't manage to catch him when he was moving the most important thing in holding this is keeping your bunker alive. This is especially easy on maps like Ohana, when there is a ramp leading to your natural. Against terran I recommend putting the bunker not exactly at the top of the ramp, but few cells back. This makes it very hard for him to get a vision of SCVs repairing the bunker from behind and also forces him to siege closer to the cliff, which makes it easier once you go for the contain break.
When holding this (and any 1-base all-in) remember that the longer you stall the more advantage you get. Since he is only on 1 base you can loose all your SCVs at natural and still be ahead. Three tanks can shoot forever at a bunker repaired by four-five SCVs. Keep your army alive (you can use hold-position because they will charge the tanks like retards if left alone), behind the bunker. You can also throw backup bunkers behind the first one.
When stalling occasionally your enemy will loose temper and charge up the ramp with his marines. This is a win for you (if you meet Filters macro benchmarks). Kill the marines (you have a better position + bunker) and than a-move the tanks. Make sure he does not kite your entire army into tank fire though. If he doesn't than slightly delayed but you should get to your 10 minute benchmarks, which includes +1 attack, stim (or combat shield) and medivacs. Drop one squad of marauders behind him, form a concave in your natural, and attack him from both sides to crush the contain. You can pull some SCVs to be extra safe (make sure they run in front of your troops, not behind).
Alternatively you can just drop his (only) base, though be careful, because you cannot stall in defense forever.
Finally - don't be afraid to base trade if it comes to this. You should be able to fly away with both of your OCs and this will allow you to rebuild much faster than him. Obviously this won't work if he already killed your army, but if you see you cannot hold the front, load the 4 medivacs you have by now and doom drop him (sometimes he will have turrets). Fly away with as much as possible, especially your two OCs. If you can catch him by surprise snipe his CC (or CCs if he expanded by now). He can chase your flying buildings around the map forever, while you build a superior force.
TL;DR; Summary - If you are sieged in your base:
1) Do not loose your army (most important! If you attack into marines supported by tanks without dominating force - gg)
2) Don't be afraid to loose some SCVs, you are ahead in economy regardless.
3) Stall as long as you can, preferably until you get +1, stim/shield and medivacs.
4) Sandwitch him, drop him or base trade.
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Just wanted to say, just using filter's method I improved A LOT on the ladder. I'm not 7-2 so far, and yes, I own my opponent almost everytime using this build.
However, I can't hit the benchmarks constantly. Sometimes, it goes pretty well, but other times it's a disaster. I practiced a lot vs AI and it went pretty well everytime. I guess when I'm in a middle of a ladder fight, I lose my concentration and stuff. My Factory + Starport timing are a bit off and I can get a 100 supply army @11:00.
It's a LOT better than what I did earlier... so, there is some positive! I'm just keeping using this build to learn it and quite master it while playing. It's a very effective build for noobs I guess it is so versatile!
I don't know what I could do to get better timings, and hit the benchmarks... so here are some replays from my latest games. If you're bored and want to help me out, I'd appreciate!!
http://drop.sc/268290
http://drop.sc/268291
http://drop.sc/268292
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After watching your zerg videos i tried 2 base 1-1 roach timing and it crushes opponents even at high plat-diamond level.
I played about 20 games and lost only 4 and those were because of my own mistakes. One diamond guy completely shut it down and rest were early ling pressure i fcked up. Ive never had rdy build for zerg so it helps alot when youre able to spend all resources and everything happens in a right order.
Really effective but at the same time so boring way to play and enemies REALLY hate that. Got like one GG at the whole time but some offensive ones alot more. Last ones i remember were "get cancer", "fck that race" and "this goes against everything ive learned in pvz"
Current metagame prolly helps it alot because everyone is expecting early 3base play.
EDIT: and works in every MU (with some adjustments sometimes)
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You seem to have an understanding of the order of the build and everything, but you just need to practice more! The execution wasn't the best, here are a couple of things I picked up from this replay:
- The main thing I feel went wrong was that you didn't utilise stuff as soon as you could. For example, the millisecond that 16th SCV finishes you should be hammering J to build the orbital command - you don't have much else to do at this point and it's always good to get the OC. The same as when it finishes - you need to build an SCV and MULE immediately, your MULE didn't come down until 90 seconds after the orbital had finished!
- You were late on a lot of the SCVs, they need to constantly be building. Just keep hitting your orbital command hotkey and make sure there are two pips in each OC, it's better to queue one SCV than reach 10 minutes 15 SCVs short (which you were :p).
- Barracks 2 & 3 were about 30 seconds late, these are very important as you don't have much defence at this point and need to start producing asap. The refineries that were placed after these barracks were well timed, although they both had one SCV in each for AGES! You need to get 3 in each as soon as they are done, if not sooner. This caused your tech labs, reactor, factory, starport and medivacs to be late by 60+ secs. Gas timing is a pretty vital part of a lot of builds - it is usually the limiting factor rather than minerals, and so your strategy is dictated by when the gasses go down.
- At the end of the game you had 37 SCV and 72 supply. These numbers can be 52/110 respectively with a bit of practice . Just don't get discouraged, you have all the basics down, you just need to drill this build again and again against some AI. It feels so good when you finally pull it off in a ladder game :D. Best of luck mate!
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This guide needs to be revised. I followed this guide brainlessly and got to low masters MMR. As soon as I tried to deviate in order to perfect my own aggressive playstyle (now that I had learnt the core mechanics) I started losing games. Anytime I went back to Filters gasless 2base Roach I was back to winning.
Very soon I found myself wondering why I needed to get a fast 3rd in order to win vs a protoss, or why I needed to camp behind a spine wall. Every other ZvZ I lost because I hadn't developed the gamesense to handle aggression from the other end. Terrans started massing tanks so roaches weren't working and I hadn't developed the gamesense to go mutalin effectively. I started watching TangSC and learning some aggression allin builds from DRG whilst making slight adjustments of my own. But always filters guide and the oppressive tl opinion of how to play camping zerg conflicted with me. It got so bad, that I purposefully demoted myself back to Silver so that I could start again.
You won't learn much aside from making workers with filters guides.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 07 2012 09:14 NarAliya wrote:
This guide needs to be revised. I followed this guide brainlessly and got to low masters MMR. As soon as I tried to deviate in order to perfect my own aggressive playstyle (now that I had learnt the core mechanics) I started losing games. Anytime I went back to Filters gasless 2base Roach I was back to winning.
Very soon I found myself wondering why I needed to get a fast 3rd in order to win vs a protoss, or why I needed to camp behind a spine wall. Every other ZvZ I lost because I hadn't developed the gamesense to handle aggression from the other end. Terrans started massing tanks so roaches weren't working and I hadn't developed the gamesense to go mutalin effectively. I started watching TangSC and learning some aggression allin builds from DRG whilst making slight adjustments of my own. But always filters guide and the oppressive tl opinion of how to play camping zerg conflicted with me. It got so bad, that I purposefully demoted myself back to Silver so that I could start again.
You won't learn much aside from making workers with filters guides.
I've been following filter's guide and is in somewhat of a similar position but im still of the opinion that this is a great guide.
I started out playing sc2 about 2 months ago an in my initial games I got completely demolished in bronze league. I watched Apollo's guides and while very helpful it didn't help me since my macro was really bad at that point. Found filters guide and improved really fast going instantly to gold league where I am now (while playing platinum).
Now to the problem you speak about, transitioning from this build and applying it to other playstyles. At this point I lose every ZvZ to early agression while doing fine in the two other matchups. Well I feel it's kind of expected that when changing playstyle you will initially play worse until you adapt to it and then become even better. And while I have no idea how to use anything but amoving roaches no matter what build I do I still have good macro.
So yes the primary thing this teaches is how to make workers. However I think this is a very important thing and well worth the time.
Whats important is to be aware of this and continue to improve after the guide. Watching some other guides like Apollos can really help here and while I'm still at the mass roach point I started throwing in infestors, corruptors & broodlords and learned to expand. And while my playstyle is still mostly to overwhelm them with roaches I feel it's posible to transition out of it. The thing I think is that after improving so rapidly and winning it feels bad when your improvement slows down and you start losing.
Overall I feel like this is the best guide there is for a new player to learn from. However once you get beyond that point it's important to keep learning from other sources. And this it was it's meant to be. It's a guide for new players not a guide to master the game.
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Well, if you practiced this playstyle for few months no doubt you play it much better than a style you are just trying out. I do not know if this was higlighted in Zerg tutorail, but in terran one he states that this is to teach you how to play macro in general and after the tutorial you can take a look at any other macro-build, try it out a few times vs AI and know exactly what you should be doing. If you want to deviate from how exactly Filter plays zerg take a style you have in mind, prepare benchmarks in a similar manner and practice this the same way you did with the original Filter build. This is not 'how you should play each game' but 'how to play macro oriented games'.
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If you want to stick to this roach play In Zvz it helps alot if you make bane nest and add couple defensive banelings to help with early pressure and delay roaches a bit. (ofc in case there is alot early pressure).
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On November 07 2012 22:06 Aslakat0r wrote:
If you want to stick to this roach play In Zvz it helps alot if you make bane nest and add couple defensive banelings to help with early pressure and delay roaches a bit. (ofc in case there is alot early pressure).
This. In Bronze/Silver almost every ZvZ comes down to whether or not I can hold an early Speedling push. If you see an early pool or gas, you need to get some defense together after your expansion.
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Just chiming in to thank Filter for this great series. I've watched 4 episodes of the Zerg one so far.
Early on my 1v1 leaved much to be desired being in Bronze. Although I got matched up with Silver players most of the time and at times beat them, it wasn't consistently and barring early rushes it usually would be a tough win. In the past I felt that I've watched enough games to get a grasp on what to build to counter my opponent, it's just that I always fall short and never had the army to break through.
Now after watching these videos I've basically been stomping through my opponents and am usually have twice or even nearly 3 times the amount of workers they do. It's amazing just learning to create workers properly can do.
I've even managed to start beating one of my friends who's a Platinum Terran pretty consistently with my play now. Prior to watching these videos that would never happen. It wasn't even from the Roach build in this video either; it's due to the fact that now I have an economy so I can consistently keep up and build what I need.
Still in silver, though I have confidence that I can make gold soon depending on how much I choose to play.
These videos are great to just get the basics down. The exercises really get me into the habit of building workers. Of course I won't stick with these strict builds forever, but it's a great idea to have newer players focus on economy first as that alone can help win or lose games. Afterwards once I get comfortable with the basics of building drones and larva injects I can start really branching out and learning new builds.
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On November 07 2012 09:14 NarAliya wrote:
This guide needs to be revised. I followed this guide brainlessly and got to low masters MMR. As soon as I tried to deviate in order to perfect my own aggressive playstyle (now that I had learnt the core mechanics) I started losing games. Anytime I went back to Filters gasless 2base Roach I was back to winning.
Very soon I found myself wondering why I needed to get a fast 3rd in order to win vs a protoss, or why I needed to camp behind a spine wall. Every other ZvZ I lost because I hadn't developed the gamesense to handle aggression from the other end. Terrans started massing tanks so roaches weren't working and I hadn't developed the gamesense to go mutalin effectively. I started watching TangSC and learning some aggression allin builds from DRG whilst making slight adjustments of my own. But always filters guide and the oppressive tl opinion of how to play camping zerg conflicted with me. It got so bad, that I purposefully demoted myself back to Silver so that I could start again.
You won't learn much aside from making workers with filters guides.
wtf are you even talking about?
in what way does improving your mechanics hurt your gamesense? You sound like you're worried you'll lose your ladder ranking in masters, but then you demote yourself to silver on purpose. Why not just add new build orders and practice vasrious matchups and not care about winning? Filter never said this was a guide to winning, he said it was a guide for improving. If you expect to watch 5 videos and have gamesense like DRG then you are highly deranged my friend. You're not going to learn how to counter proper timings down in silver league; the only way you'll get better is by playing vs opponents that are better than you.
Everyone needs to ignore this guy. The ONLY way to micro or scout or react or vary your build on-the-fly is to have the macro to execute a perfect greedy build without having to concentrate on not getting supply blocked. Any pro will tell you this. The "TL attitude" of only fast expanding exists because that is the best way to improve, not because that is the best way to get a quick win on the ladder. Ever wonder why all the GM's aren't professional players? That's because ladder ranking doesn't mean a thing. Do what it takes to improve and the wins will come without effort. Only once you reach high masters are you even remotely competitive in your play, and at that time you can focus on the little things.
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On November 07 2012 09:14 NarAliya wrote:
This guide needs to be revised. I followed this guide brainlessly and got to low masters MMR. As soon as I tried to deviate in order to perfect my own aggressive playstyle (now that I had learnt the core mechanics) I started losing games. Anytime I went back to Filters gasless 2base Roach I was back to winning.
Very soon I found myself wondering why I needed to get a fast 3rd in order to win vs a protoss, or why I needed to camp behind a spine wall. Every other ZvZ I lost because I hadn't developed the gamesense to handle aggression from the other end. Terrans started massing tanks so roaches weren't working and I hadn't developed the gamesense to go mutalin effectively. I started watching TangSC and learning some aggression allin builds from DRG whilst making slight adjustments of my own. But always filters guide and the oppressive tl opinion of how to play camping zerg conflicted with me. It got so bad, that I purposefully demoted myself back to Silver so that I could start again.
You won't learn much aside from making workers with filters guides.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3424302/1/NarAliya/
16 games this season...the day before you wrote this you wrote the highest you've ever been in SC2 was gold.
Seems to be a trend that you make things up in a lot of threads you go to...
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Great series. I was a season 1 gold player and have not played since then. I struggled in gold due to poor macro and a lack of solid fundamentals everywhere.
After watching the first bronze video and practicing a few times I played my placement matches and went 3-2, losing once to DT's and another where I blew the build. Placed in silver. I feel much stronger playing than before. I am now working on the silver mechanics. However, in ladder games I have been hitting 47/48/49 SCV by 10 but I have never hit 50 once. Perhaps I should play more custom games until I can consistently get the 50 SCV's each game by 10.
Thank you so much for this. Thoug
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On November 12 2012 14:14 gosplat wrote:
Great series. I was a season 1 gold player and have not played since then. I struggled in gold due to poor macro and a lack of solid fundamentals everywhere.
After watching the first bronze video and practicing a few times I played my placement matches and went 3-2, losing once to DT's and another where I blew the build. Placed in silver. I feel much stronger playing than before. I am now working on the silver mechanics. However, in ladder games I have been hitting 47/48/49 SCV by 10 but I have never hit 50 once. Perhaps I should play more custom games until I can consistently get the 50 SCV's each game by 10.
Thank you so much for this. Thoug
Even when I win I will watch the replays to see if I hit the benchmarks. Of course barring early assaults/cheeses if I don't hit the benchmarks usually I try to figure out why and try to rectify it. For example in one match I had I spent too much larvae building up overlords because I forgot that I built overlords earlier, therefore my drone count was too low. This overreaction was because I was supply blocked and when I got the "build more overlords" signal I built more despite the fact that I had incomign overlords already. Since then I went back to practice and try to work in a habit of more regularly building overlords so I won't get supply blocked.
These guides are useful as I have employed successful builds against my Platinum friend since then aside from the Roach one. Just by learning how to build workers and macro better I have improved dramatically.
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EPT
