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On April 23 2012 05:59 Souai wrote:
Geeze I didn't realize how much better it was to just have an extra SCV in the queue after the opening than to try to chain them one at a time. While doing the bronze stuff my best without queuing scvs versus with was pretty startling.
Without queuing scvs: 47 scvs, 58 marines, 116 total supply at 10 minutes
With the scv queuing: 52 scvs, 61 marines, 125 total supply at 10 minutes
Had the same production base and the 47 scv game even felt 'smoother' but I was just outright 20 seconds faster if I played with my command centers having a queued scv O.o. I didn't just not make scvs for a while at any point, it's just that those fractions of a second you don't put another scv in BEFORE one finishes are sneaky and add up to a ton of lost potential.
I discovered the exact same thing. I thought my macro was decent because I kept building SCVs, but those lost seconds without queuing really add up. It was quite the eye-opener.
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Even Im playing Protoss this series helped me a lot. It shows how a good refined build will win you games without fancy microing - you just have more stuff. Sadly its impossible for P to use a single build on all matchups (at least I don't know any ^^). But it should be no problem to work over them in a similar way as filter did playing the cpu in order to improve probe production and warpgate downtime.
The important thing though is to already have a complete gameplan layed out. (something like FFE into stargatepresure into 17 min deathballpush) As stated earlier one should not care so much about the stuff the opponent does - bad stuff will simply die to your crisp macro and dealing with cheese is a matter of experience. So thumbs up for filter showing that refining a build will help and more important giving an example. So keep up the good work.
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yeah watching these lessons are really helping me out a lot. i just played one game where i got cannon rushed and then it threw my timings off badly but i was able to come back and win though but i did miss a few things up but here it is if you want to see it
http://drop.sc/165321
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On April 23 2012 12:25 Blackknight232 wrote:yeah watching these lessons are really helping me out a lot. i just played one game where i got cannon rushed and then it threw my timings off badly but i was able to come back and win though but i did miss a few things up but here it is if you want to see it http://drop.sc/165321
You did a really good job pulling your scv's, and you did a great job of eventually landing back on your core buildings. Once you established yourself it was an easy win from there.
Yes, the other guy could have probably won if he spent his money but... you spent yours despite getting setback badly at the start, making the best of the situation you were in and no panicing.
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On April 23 2012 13:15 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 12:25 Blackknight232 wrote:yeah watching these lessons are really helping me out a lot. i just played one game where i got cannon rushed and then it threw my timings off badly but i was able to come back and win though but i did miss a few things up but here it is if you want to see it http://drop.sc/165321 You did a really good job pulling your scv's, and you did a great job of eventually landing back on your core buildings. Once you established yourself it was an easy win from there. Yes, the other guy could have probably won if he spent his money but... you spent yours despite getting setback badly at the start, making the best of the situation you were in and no panicing.
thank you very much for that but yeah i'm rank 2 gold so it's really paying off a lot. i'll have to look into the next vids for plat so i know what to expect at this next stage of the game. Again thanks a lot for this thread
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This thread is important. Please encourage any mods anybody encounters to feature or sticky this.
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Awesome series.
So good with benchmarks. With the benchmarks there is really a measureable "if you get X at time Y you will win" and so cool to see that it works for casual players like myself.
Keep up the good work.
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On April 23 2012 09:53 -AtRi- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 19:18 AlphaDotCom wrote:On April 22 2012 16:48 Filter wrote:
I think Terran is the "safest" macro only race, however I do think you can effectively play the other races with a similar approach. A really good Terran player relying on macro can probably have a below masters winrate of 90%, a really good zerg/toss player relying only on macro would probably be closer to 75-80%. I do believe that all races get punished for poor mechanical skills in different ways. Zergs die all the time with no larva, a huge bank and energy on their queens. I often look at a game and go well, if he hit his injects I would have lost that one. Protoss is a bit different, with warpgate and the ability to quickly sink gas/mineral surplus into very strong units (zealots/archons, colossus with chrono) it's not quite as obvious. When a protoss player has bad early/midgame mechanics he gets killed though.
I would be very interested to see what would happen if you gave a silver player from each race and gave them three saturated bases which race would end up doing the best. protoss would lose every single pvp they get 4 gated platinum and up or proxied if they just play macro or dont scout, you cant do one build order vs every race with protoss. You could have 70-80% winrtate with one build vs zerg and terran but using that same build pvp will net u under 50% win rate unless you have grandmaster mechanics. Im a mid master protoss and i bet id lose to platinum 4 gate i with 1 gate fe, the standard macro build. What you could do with protoss is 4 gate every pvp while trying to hit under 5:50 and do a 1 gate fe into a 2 base 2 ranged colossus 6 gate push vs terran and zerg, making a choke with gates at your natural vs zerg. Pretty much identical build vs both should win a great deal till at least diamond. Zerg is even trickier, zvp and zvt zerg drones to like 60+ with barely any units and zvz this is instant loss so anything. Also, the tricky part is this guide has benchmarks for a non scout timing while zerg is most reactive race so non scouting blind macro doesnt benefit it as much(they cant just make marines vs everything). Should I still be trying to stick to the one simple build for the matchups at a high diamond level? PvP you have to do something different for sure, otherwise you will just die. In PvT I could definitely get by just using one build until masters. My main question is PvZ - Last week I copied a basic build from nony that involved a 3 gateway expand into mass stalker/colosus and upgrades. My only issue is that I feel (correct me if im wrong) I have to do something if i see mutalisks. Don't get me wrong- I can deal with mutas in other ways, but I don't feel like I can do it by sticking to the colosus/stalker build without it ending in a base trade situation. Any advice?
If you watch the videos, you will see that its not about build order. He focuses on building groups, with production that adapts to the opponents composition. So the order regarding building placement is similar, but you change the addons and units you get if it is a tvz against ling bling for example.
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I think this a great and I hope to have the time to be able to go through it. Will definitly be pointing a friend here, he will love this. Thanks for the time and effort you put into this.
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Guides are always for low leagues until diamond or so. When will we see some guides for diamonds to masters/GM ? Nice guide btw !
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On April 23 2012 08:15 Filter wrote:You should be able to hold the 1/1/1 with this style, you do need to adjust it a bit (get tanks if he does the 1/1/1, but thats as simple as a naked starport and techlab on the factory, everything times out.) You need to keep your bunker alive too, if his marines go in to try and kill it send in your marines (tanks will keep shooting the bunker). Just set 4 or 5 scvs next tot he bunker on auto repair, they'll keep it up unless he gets overaggressive but at that point he'll lose all his marines. The difference between the 1/1/1 from gold to masters is about the same power. I can hold it, but it's tough, in any league. Server comparisons are kind of silly too, I played out my placements on the korean server (it's laggy for me) and 5-0'd them using only the "silver" stuff, mixed in with a big of micro. The micro is through the lag though, so it's pretty god awful. Plat Zerg, who is hyper aggressive, on the korean server, using my silver league layers. I have no idea there's a bust coming, no safety bunkers etc. I just outproduce him by the end and win by making more stuff than he can kill. http://drop.sc/165230Some stuff is really hard to hold regardless of league and tactics. Don't judge your play on one game, on one build order.
I understand what your saying but your guide kind of falls apart cause to know its a 1/1/1 you need to scout
most TvT I face are all 1 base tank (even seen a silver guy do a 3 tank rush floating barracks build hits pretty fast) or cloak bancheese
I am pretty sure your guide and build works really well vs passive play I tried quite few games so far yet to get to 10 mins push
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On April 24 2012 01:34 lightertripod wrote:
I understand what your saying but your guide kind of falls apart cause to know its a 1/1/1 you need to scout
most TvT I face are all 1 base tank (even seen a silver guy do a 3 tank rush floating barracks build hits pretty fast) or cloak bancheese
I am pretty sure your guide and build works really well vs passive play I tried quite few games so far yet to get to 10 mins push
You can always watch the video he did on scouting, just because it's not in the silver league section doesn't mean it can't be used, same goes for the gold league bits, if you think you have mastered the silver league benchmarks it's probably time to move forward. I think the reason he made scouting one of the latter videos is because if it was one of the first vids people would be too focused on scouting and it would be detremental to developing the mechanics he is trying to teach.
Basically TvT just drop a scan on his base at about 6:00 and you should be able to tell what is coming, whilst giving you enough time to prepare for it.
I think the main thing that helps with early pressure is experience. When i was first using these tutorials i would lose a lot to early pressure. But now with some experience i am a lot better at dealing with it because A) I can better predict what is coming from scouting, and B) Know more how to prepare for what is coming.
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The latest video details branching your build TvP (fe -> 1/1/1 style push, ghost rush) which is pretty cool. I'll probably update the op once I finish the vZ and vT versions of that video. The vP one is up on my channel right now. http://www.youtube.com/filtersc
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what is your channel? i'd like to see the videos!
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This is really well done thanks for posting. I like the benchmarks and they taught me ways to measure progress and even made me go back and reassess stuff that I already knew how to do.
Guides are always for low leagues until diamond or so. When will we see some guides for diamonds to masters/GM ?
I think some of the Day9 dailies are good guides for higher levels. He's doing pretty quality analysis of professional games. That may be as close as you can get to a step by step guide for high level play.
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Thanks man, just watched all videos and it was a treat.
To all people saying this is not possible with Zerg or Protoss (it certainly is,look at how Destiny did it on Queens alone, or that dude that did it in Stalkers alone) the point of the videos I think is to show how you should start focusing on improving. At 1st focus on being able to consistently build and have constant production , then start adding all stuff (timmings, tech etc...) People worry too much about counters and scouting and all those more advanced details.At that level it doesn't matter that much, 1st focus on having a more reliable macro. It doesn't matter if you are a scouting bonjwa if you missed 10 injects and have 30 drones less than what you would have had.
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yeah i know in this game i screwed up badly even though i did win and all the above but i think i hit at 14 min mark 130ish food and way too many scvs i think about 77 at the 14 min mark with my 3rd already down.
http://drop.sc/165908
and this game i know my timings were off so badly but i was super sore from working outside so like it was hard but i was lucky enough that i still won.
http://drop.sc/165919
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On April 24 2012 14:03 Blackknight232 wrote:yeah i know in this game i screwed up badly even though i did win and all the above but i think i hit at 14 min mark 130ish food and way too many scvs i think about 77 at the 14 min mark with my 3rd already down. http://drop.sc/165908and this game i know my timings were off so badly but i was super sore from working outside so like it was hard but i was lucky enough that i still won. http://drop.sc/165919
Yeah, you get up to 81 scv's in that game, and pretty fast too. You beat the zerg by just spending what you had, bios not supposed to beat ling/bling/infestor and later on broods. The second game you play well, just miss the third by a little bit. When somebody just snap leaves after losing their army you can tell they're pissed off. Pretty dominating wins, but lots of room to improve which is great.
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EPT
